Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

A conversation among Whalers
hskbvn
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Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:38 am

I am thinking about moving up to a Montauk 17 or an Outrage 18 [from a 15-footer]

Q: Do you think i would benefit from these bigger boats?

BACKSTORY: Six months ago I bought 15-footer. The previous owner put in a side console. The engine is a Yamaha F60 with 430 hours. I added two adjustable Garelick pedal seats. In general, i am really happy with the boat. Originally, i opted for the 15 since I can store it in my garage. That was the main reason i bought the 15 instead of a 17 or 18. However, when i fish for Halibut in the San Fransisco Bay, the boat is not as stable as i would like when trolling or drifting. Ideally, i would find an Outrage 18 hull and put in a new 9-0HP outboard, or find a boat with a decent 70 to 90-HP engine.

[A motion picture of the 15-footer underway on calm water can be seen at:]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJnPwYs_d0A

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Re:Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby biggiefl » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:11 pm

Having owned all of them I can say a few things for sure. The 15 classic is one of the most fun Whaler Boston Whaler boats ever made, especially with high horsepower. The 15 is also the least stable at rest than all of them--even a 13 is way more stable.

The Montauk 17 has basically the same hull design as the 15 but is almost twice the weight and much wider. It is also designed to stand up so you have way less risk of falling overboard while fishing. The Montauk may fit in your garage with a swing tongue trailer.

I own an OUTRAGE 18 with a 115-HP four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine, and driving it is a pleasure. An OUTRAGE 18 is huge [compared to a 15-footer]. An OUTRAGE 18 has built-in fuel tank, able to run twin engines, It is twice the boat.

The 18 is wider and heavier than the Montauk 17. Its hull has a deeper V. All in all, an OUTRAGE 18 is not much more stable than a Montauk but and OUTRAGE 18 rides softer.

Do not get a 90-HP [on a OUTRAGE 18]. An engine of 115-HP [would be my recommendation for] minimum power, especially for [getting value at] re-sale.. In my opinion the 115 would be the least power I would put on it.

Things to consider:
--towing; In that area do you want to be towing a much larger boat up and down hills with your vehicle?
--storage; where will you store a larger boat? A MONTAUK 17 might fit in the garage.

For a vague size, not performance comparison: A 15-footer is like a Camaro. The Montauk 17 is a Grand Cherokee or Explorer. The OUTAGE 18 is a Suburban.

I think your ideal setup is a Montauk 17 with a 70 to 90-HP.
Last edited by biggiefl on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall. :roll:

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:06 pm

The OUTRAGE 18 hull is not precisely similar to a MONTAUK 17. The OUTRAGE 18 hull is a moderate V-hull, while the MONTAUK 17 has a rounded hull at the stern. They two hull designs are substantially different. The reason the MONTAUK 17 has an odd length number and the OUTRAGE 18 has an even length number is because the even-odd distinction was a consistency in model designators to differentiate between moderate V-hull designs (even as in 18-20-22-24) and rounded bottom designs (odd, as in 13-15-17-19-31). (ASIDE: marketing trumped engineering and made the OUTRAGE 24 into the OUTRAGE 25 after its first year being offered.)

The OUTRAGE 18 is not quite the equivalent of a large SUV. With a 135 to 150-HP engine it is a like a two-seat sports car. To get a full-size SUV in an OUTRAGE, you'll need to move up to a 25-footer.

A 15-footer is an open skiff with very low freeboard. It is a great boat for only a 15-foot boat, fun to run around in calm water for an hour or two, but it is not an open water, rough water, long-endurance boat--qualities I think you have come to know from your ownership for six months.

The MONTAUK 17 is the most popular Boston Whaler model ever made, a tribute to its versatility in a very compact size. Being able to stand at the helm is a huge advantage compared to a 15-footer. Not having an in-hull fuel tank on a MONTAUK 17 can be a nice advantage. With a modern fuel-efficient engine, one 20-gallon on-deck fuel tank will give sufficient range for most any type of day-use.

A MONTAUK 17 may be able to fit into a garage. Careful measurement of the boat while on the trailer of the height and length will determine the fit with a carefully measured garage and garage door. A trailer with a swing tongue will help with length. Height at the door can be close, so measure carefully.

Used MONTAUK 17 boats outnumber used OUTRAGE 18 boats by a very big margin, so finding a MONTAUK will be more likely.

I wouldn't worry much about finding a MONTAUK with a good classic two-stroke-power-cycle engine and its fuel economy. At the 70 to 90-HP level, even old carburetor engines are quite easy on fuel consumption. Replacing the engine with a modern engine at a cost of perhaps $8,000 or more would save perhaps 1-GPH in fuel consumption. That would add up to perhaps a few hundred dollars per year in saved fuel expense, and the cost of the new engine would never be paid off in fuel savings.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:53 pm

NICK--thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding I created.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:29 pm

By the way, since you already own a nice Yamaha F60, you could move that engine to a MONTAUK 17. It won't be a rocket ship, but it will get on plane.

Also, I owned a SPORT 15 for several years. It was also my first Boston Whaler. I had a blast with the SPORT 15, and we trailered it all over the Great Lakes. But my back and knees are now much too old for a 15-footer. Were I still 30-years-old, I'd buy another one just for fun.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:39 pm

For the bay, you will want an Outrage 18.

They are not easy to find and those that are for sale are expensive (compared to the rest of the country)
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hskbvn
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:12 pm

Thanks alot for all your advice. I've been looking from San Jose all the way to San Diego for a decent OUTRAGE 18 or 19--and still looking. I could also opt for a MONTAUK 17 with a decent outboard.

I just called the local Yamaha outboard dealer, and they quote a new Yamaha 115 with all the controls and gauges for $15,000, including tax and labor.

I measured my driveway, and it's exactly 23 feet. If i park the boat all the way to the side, the back engine can be positioned on the side of the garage but half of the boat would be on the grass--could be a problem with the city and the neighbor. The ideal is to find a boat and trailer that fin into the 23-foot driveway--maybe with a swing-away- tongue.

By the way, i modified the trailer on the 15 footer with the swing away tongue so that i can put in the garage with some space left so my wife can do her laundry.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:27 pm

Jim-- was thinking about finding a MONTAUK 17 to transfer my F60 over, but after some more thought, [I] don't think [the move is] economical. The labor here is expensive, and an engine swap might cost $1,000.

I really love that F60. It's a little hard to start--three to five tries needed since it has a carburetor--but after it's warm it perform flawlessly.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:00 am

With your interest apparently mostly related to angling, a MONTAUK 17 with a 60-HP would likely be sufficiently powered for your use. You might find these remarks about engine weight and engine horsepower for the classic MONTAUK 17 to be interesting:

Storm Story: July 17, 2006, Manitoulin Island
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/013113.html

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby biggiefl » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:36 am

My problem with transferring the engine is this:

Side mount controls will most likely need to be replaced with binacle. Will wiring harness be long enough to reach? Shift & throttle cables too? New prop needed as well. Decent amount of hours and non-EFI. Resale on a 15' with no engine will usually suffer. What do you do with the controls, cables, wiring harness & prop left over?

Where it might make sense is finding a nice Montauk with say a 70hp Yamaha 2 stroke. There you just unbolt each engine and move them to their new hull. You may need to buy props as I don't know if gear case size is similar.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall. :roll:

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:11 am

could you comment on a dauntless 17 with Suzui 90HP with 350 hours (1997) vs Outrage 19 with Yamaha 150 HP with 200 hours + T-top(1992)"
Both motors are 4-stroke motor.
Both boats are in Great Shapes

if the outrage is 5K more, which one would you get?
I need some reasonable answers asap.
thank you so much

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Phil T
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:08 am

The Dauntless has a different hull design, less V more of a U. It is a near shore hull.

The Outrage series is an offshore hull, more of a V. Handles waves and swells better.

Two factors in handling, length and hull design. The shorter Dauntless with the rounder hull will not be as smooth in the snotty waves/swells of the ocean compared to an Outrage.

The Dauntless series has more features, seating especially.

If I am going out in San Francisco bay, I would want as much length and V as I could afford. That is one opinion.
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hskbvn
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:51 am

Hard choices:

Image

Image

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:02 am

Bluewaterpirate frequently fishes far offshore in the Atlantic with a Dauntless. He has installed an impressive electronics array on his boat to help him find fish and keep track of the weather. If you are interested in the offshore fishing capability of the Dauntless hull you should contact him or perform a search for his posts.
Butch

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:04 am

Knowing both pretty well, I say the Outrage 19.

One important note.

The 1992-3 Outrage 19 model is different from other models in that there is NO removeable cover to access the fuel tank. This was a short lived design change that Whaler has never repeated.

There are factory instructions how to cut the floor and replace the tank should it fail. While a PITA, it is a known concern rather than a surprise.

The Outrage 19 in the photo appears to be clean, nice modern power and features a t-top. Find some comps on the sale sites to get market values.

Again, I would not want to be in SF Bay in 2'ers on a Dauntless 17. Standing while driving is not practical. In the Outrage 19, you can do it or sit.
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:06 am

Butch -

I recall BluewaterPirate runs a 210 Ventura. Completely different hull. Longer, wider and heavier. It's a tank. Am a wrong?
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vtvfr
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby vtvfr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:18 am

I believe the 1997 Dauntless 17 pictured was based upon the Outrage 17II hull of similar vintage. If so, it will have more of a deep V hull shape but would probably be too small for SF Bay. It would be underpowered as well in my opinion, as the max horsepower for the Outrage 17II is 150hp.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby biggiefl » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:33 am

I was in 4' snot in a 16' Dauntless with a 90hp and was impressed with it, especially compared to my Montauk. I think the 90 is a bit weak but so is a 60 on a Montauk. The Outrage would be much better but only a test ride would verify that. 19' boat is about minimum in length in my opinion for a t-top as they can seriously manipulate a boat in winds or if a squall comes through. The fact that SF is usually on the cooler side, I don't think I would want to be in the shade ALL the time. What pics? The outrage seems like a better deal but again that fuel tank situation is scary.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall. :roll:

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 pm

MODEL 	        LENGTH  BEAM  	DRAFT DRY WT  MAX HP 	MIN HP 
17-DAUNTLESS 17' 0" 7" 0" 12" 1500 130 90

19-OUTRAGE-II 18' 6" 7' 2" 10" 1900 150 75


Wow, the Draft of the Dauntless is 12" compare to 10" of the 19 Outrage.[/monospace][/pre]
the 19-outrage is 400 lbs heavier + about 100 lb for motor differences, so more than 500 lb heavier.

Wow, the Draft of the Dauntless is 12" compare to 10" of the 19 Outrage.
the 19-outrage is 400 lbs heavier + about 100 lb for motor differences, so more than 500 lb heavier.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm

Keep in mind the Outrage is 2' longer.

Weight and LOA helps in snot. Will not share story of how I learned this the hard way.

Keep in mind water conditions on the west coast are pretty different than the Atlantic and Gulf.
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby biggiefl » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:36 pm

I hear ya on that Phil but if he is doing it in a 15' sport, anything is like the Queen Mary comparatively speaking.

On a 19 Outrage I imagine the 150 performs more like the 18" Outrage with a 115 due to 650lbs of heft added.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall. :roll:

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:30 pm

I am familiar with both boats. My very strong preference would be for the c.1992 OUTRAGE 19 II with Yamaha F150, even at a premium of $5,000 over the other boat, assuming both are in equally good condition.

As Phil has mentioned, the fuel tank is sealed in place under the deck. This design has advantages and disadvantages. Since the deck was sealed, water from on-deck would not tend to leak into the tank area, and thus not causing the tank to decay, and thus the fuel tank won't need replacement. Alternatively, since the deck is sealed, replacement of the fuel tank will be a project, if it becomes necessary.

At concern: does the tank now need replacement or will the tank in the near future need replacement? The answer is difficult to know, unless there is an obvious defect, such as a persistent odor of gasoline in boat inner-hull space. Usually a human nose can detect the presence of a gasoline odor at very small concentration. Open up that round access plate in the engine splash well, and insert a sensitive human nose. Take a careful smell. You should know if the fuel tank needs replacement.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:34 pm

In the illustration above shown a view of the c.1992 OUTRAGE 19 II boat from astern, due to the exposure and the lighting, I cannot distinguish clearly if the the transom through-hull drains are above the water line. If the drains are immersed in the sea, and if the boat has been kept in the water, I advise a careful inspection of the through-hull drains. Look for any sign of failure of the drain tubes or failure of the sealant bedding the drain tubes in place.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:37 pm

I am trying to look hard to justify the $5,000 asking price difference:

Outrage T-Top = $1,000
Outrage Yamaha 150-HP at 200-hours is about $3,000 to $4,000 more than the Suzuki 90-HP at 350-hours.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:45 pm

Your comparison should be:

OUTRAGE 19 II is worth about $7,000 more than a DAUNTLESS 17

The value of the T-Top ranges from -2,000 to +1,000 dollars, depending on your view of the usefulness of a T-Top. In my view, non-OEM, added T-Tops are generally suspicious components, particularly in regard to how they have been attached to the hull, how the hull has reacted to the stress added by the T-Top, and in particular to the proper sealing of any holes made to install fasteners for the mounting of the T-Top so as not to permit ingress of water below deck level.

The Yamaha F150 is a very good engine.

You might fit the DAUNTLESS 17 in your garage. The OUTRAGE 19 II with a T-Top would never fit in a standard garage.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:49 pm

Jefecinco wrote:Bluewaterpirate frequently fishes far offshore in the Atlantic with a Dauntless....


The cited example involves a VERY MUCH DIFFERENT boat than the 17 DAUNTLESS under discussion. The other boat is five-feet longer and has much different hull design.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby quickenberger » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:05 pm

I restored a Sentry 19ft and it did great crossing from Dana Point to Catalina Island a few years ago in 4ft waves plus swell. Did the crossing in a little over 2 hours. The Sentry is basically an outrage hull with a 4 panel wrap around windshield. With a 19ft boat you'd most likely have a tandem axle trailer.

There are people who are daring enough to go 40-50 miles out in a 17ft Montauk in SO Cal. On a popular fishing reports forum for SoCal he'd post screen shots of his charplotter showing 90+ mile round trips.

As you probably know, costs increase exponentially with length increase. Try to look at the whole costs not just initial price differences of outright purchase. Increase costs of towing, larger trailer, tandem axle vs single with bearing maintenance and tires, boat fuel costs, engine operating and maintenance costs, etc. You get the idea.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:18 pm

I have decided my next boat will be an [OUTRAGE 17, 18, or 19]. [I am] just waiting for the right engine and decent deal. Meawhile, i can still play with my 15 classic in the slough.

Below is a nice [1995 OUTRAGE 19 II] for [$13,500 asking price] including a nice trailer, but it has a two-stroke-power-cycle engine, which [I] try to avoid.

Image
[T]he boat looks really nice--if only it had a four-stroke-power-cycle engine.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:23 pm

quickenberger wrote:With a 19ft boat you'd most likely have a tandem axle trailer.


The need for a tandem-axle trailer would depend on the total boat weight. Many OUTRAGE 18 boats have been towed on single-axle trailers.

If the "19ft" boat is a Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 19 II, the dry hull weighs 1,900-lbs. With an engine, batteries, fuel, gear, and so on, a total boat weight on a trailer could be 3,000-lbs. A trailer might weigh 500-lbs. That would put the total boat and trailer weight about 3,500-lbs. Generally a single-axle trailer won't be rated for more than 3,500-lbs because most trailer axles are rated for 3,500-lbs. Also the tires would have to be rated for 1750-lbs. You can get good trailer tires with 1,900-lbs rating, so the tires would not be a problem. The tongue weight will be about 250-lbs or more, so the weight on the axle and tires will be 250-lbs or more lower than the total towed weight.

But a 19-foot boat is not going to fit in any standard garage, so I don't think the number of axles on the trailer is going to affect the decision to buy or not. Any 19-footer is going to have to be stored somewhere other than the garage. And the overall length of the trailer won't necessary change if there are tandem axles.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:28 pm

I like the latest candidate. It is at a ramp, so it has been launched off a trailer, not kept in the water--that is a plus for me.

No owner-added T-Top; another plus for me.

The older Yamaha 150 two-stroke-power-cycle engine is a classic outboard. I think they could run forever with proper fuel, good oil, routine preventative maintenance, and tender care.

Consider how many hours you are going to run the engine a year.

You can get rid of the smoke in the exhaust with high-quality oil, like Evinrude XD100 or a Yamaha-brand equivalent.

And you won't have to do any oil changes.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby hskbvn » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:37 pm

Hello all—Now you have me worried.
I just got a single axle last night with the intend to trail my would be 19 outrage.
it is a Boston Whaler Brand manufactured in 2016.

Hhere is are a few snaps:

Image

Image

Tthe length from the back to the padeye is 16'8".
Tthe trailer has electronic break.
Ddo you think this trailer is up to the task for an Ooutrage 19?

I read the label, and the trailer is rated for 1399Kg or 3,085-lbs.
thanks.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby quickenberger » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 pm

The Sentry 19 I had would not since its around 4000 lbs (guesstimating). Some other 19ft models just barely would work. Your tire tread will tell the real story if the wear is on the inside of the tire then the tires are splaying out too much.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Phil T » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:27 am

The specifications for a 1995 Outrage 19 list the weight of the hull, including console and seating but not the engine, at 1900 lbs.

To this number you add:

-Engine
-Fuel
-Battery
- Anchor/Rode
-General gear

Allowing 500 lbs for a motor and 500 for fuel and all the other gear puts you at 3,000 lbs at MOST. At this weight you are within the specification of the axle and springs.

I am suspicious on the provenance of the trailer for two reasons: Boston Whaler did not manufacturer trailers, but rather sold other brands (Karavan most recently) with their decal; and, if only 4 years old, it appears to be in very poor shape.

Each state require brakes on trailers over a certain weight, typically above a trailered weight of 2,000 to 3,000-lbs. I do not see an actuator mounted on the frame so I would question its brake system.
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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby Crusty the Clam » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:07 pm

Jim is spot on: For the love of all things holy, the most recent Outrage with the Yamaha saltwater series AND a trailer is your new boat. Assuming, that is, if you have the vehicle to trailer it and the space to store it.

In my albeit limited experience, Yamaha 2 strokes are generally quieter than other 2 strokes and don’t smoke. Even my 1982 Johnson 115 doesn’t really smoke except on initial startup thanks to modern low smoke oil. The 2 stroke is a little less weight on the stern, much easier to maintain, and will have more torque. I’ve never been on SF bay, but everything I’ve seen and read tells me I’d prefer extra grunt and quicker response of a two stroke on the swells and waves that people depict and describe on that bay.

That boat looks really nice. I’d sell off your trailer. It needs work, won’t fit the 19, and will require fiddling and adjustment even if it was long enough. And to my eye it looks like it was on one of those bow rider / wake boats. If the owner of the Outrage has his “stuff together”, the trailer with his boat is likely well fitted and suitable.

That doesn’t sound like an unreasonable asking price for that boat if it passes your inspection.

Good luck.

Crusty T.

PS whoever commented about the T top possibly being a liability (kite on your boat) has a good point. Plus try fitting that in ANY garage. Sun shade is nice when it’s not a liability ;-) and can be removed and installed easily.

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Re: Moving up to MONTAUK 17 or OUTRAGE 18

Postby jimh » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:00 pm

Re trailer weight rating: there are generally two weight ratings: the maximum total weight for the trailer and its load, or the maximum weight for the load. When a particular weight is cited, it must be clear which particular category is being cited. To say the trailer is rated for, say, 3,000-lbs, does not clearly indicate if the trailer and boat weight can not be more than 3,000-lbs or if the trailer can carry a 3,000-lbs boat.