Purchase Advice Needed: Lake Erie Boat

[First tee]

Last year we bought a house with a dock and hoist. Obviously, we need a boat!

I have never been a boater. In fact, I have been on a boat maybe five times in my life. In my research, and looking at my neighbors' boats, I have pretty much decided on a Boston Whaler. The tough decision is which one.

I am expecting that the boat will be used for a little fishing and mostly for cruising around the local area. I have a 14 year old, so there may be some tubing. We live at the northern edge of Lake Erie, but I don't see any big excursions into the lake in our future. I am in favor of smaller and simpler.

I have pretty much decided on a 17-footer. The question is whether it should be a Montauk or a Dauntless. I suspect either will meet our needs. Initially I thought of looking for something used but I just don't see much around and being new to boating I'm concerned about inheriting someone else's problems, especially with the engine. Any thoughts for a newbie?

[jimh]

If you are going to buy a new Boston Whaler boat, the first step is to find the local dealer. Check them out. See if you like them. You are going to be handing them a big check, and when I do that, I prefer to hand it to someone in whom I have some trust and feel like I can have a relationship. A Boston Whaler boat comes with a ten-year warranty on the hull, so you might have some dealings with your dealer even ten years down the road.

For Lake Erie a 170 MONTAUK will be a nice boat, but not on some days. Due to its general shallow depths, Lake Erie can produce miserable wave conditions. The only way to compensate is to go bigger, but even 35-footers can't handle everything out there. You will just have to pick the days you go boating.

If you are located on the north shore of Lake Erie, you must be in Ontario. I'd recommend you go to the Toronto Boat Show to get a good exposure to boating--but it has already come and gone. Choosing a Boston Whaler is a good move.

P.S.--you should have bought an American-made boat a few years ago when the Canadian dollar was more valuable, say in 2008 when the exchange rate was at par or even in favor of the Canadian dollar. At today's exchange rates I suspect the price of a new Boston Whaler is going to be rather steep in Canada. Also, keep that historical exchange rate mind if you see a used boat from that era for sale in Canada. The owner probably got a bargain back then.

[First tee]

I am actually on the Michigan side of Lake Erie. Canada is close but with all the customs rules and such it may as well be a different planet!

[jimh]

Being in Michigan is an advantage for Whaler shopping. Your dollar is stronger, and there are plenty of boats. The nearest dealer to you may be Colony Marine. Go visit them at the Detroit Boat Show, going on right now.

A MONTAUK and DAUNTLESS differ in a few areas:

--the DAUNTLESS has an internal fuel tank; the MONTAUK uses on-deck fuel tanks

--the DAUNTLESS has upholstered seats; the MONTAUK is more spartan--but easier to keep clean;

--the DAUNTLESS weighs about 400-lbs more than the MONTAUK; this affects several things: trailer rating, tow vehicle rating, lift rating, and overall performance;

--the DAUNTLESS has 14-degree deadrise at transom; the MONTAUK has 16-degrees; this affects the ride characteristics; generally more deadrise helps.

My general advice is to carefully consider who is going to use the boat. These boats are rather expensive, so boating today has become something a joint-project in a family, a joint-decision. You can see this reflected in Boston Whaler promotional material. They always show the boat in use with the whole family aboard. I would council to consider who will be using the boat the most in the long term, as that might affect the decision of what model to get.

Be sure to get a sun top or flying top to give shade; I'd get the OEM option for that.

[Phil T]

I would not buy a new boat, rather a late model or classic in good condition.

It would help to talk to boat owners in your area as to what it takes in annual maintenance, winterization, storage and other costs. Know what you are getting into before spending alot of money.

Just because you have a dock, does not mean you have to have a boat.

[Don McIntyre - MI]

I'd second what Phil stated above..... start looking for a used one, either on this or other forums, and also Craigslist. All are decent places to start. I'm up in the lower end of Lake Huron, and can state that most Whalers in hoists along our shore are the Montauk series. Fewer Dauntless in hoists.

Question - When you mentioned dock and hoist, is it a moveable hoist that is placed in the water at the beginning of the season, and removed at the end of the season, or one that's more or less a permanently mounted structure to the dock or free standing along the shoreline? Reason I'm asking is that most moveable or seasonal ones I see up here handle less weight, making the Montauk vs (the heavier) Dauntless question a non-issue.

Jim's right in the ride, however on days where it's too rough for a Montauk, you'd probably leave even the Dauntless in the hoist, as launching or retrieving either would be a problem if not dangerous with the boat lurching around in transition between floating and out of the water. Our local repair shops have a good off season business repairing cosmetic damage from ill advised hoisting activity.

If the boat comes with a trailer, you've come to the right forum. Many members have traveled long distances with theirs, and have even set them up for sleeping and lightweight camping. My wife and I started just like that; with a 17' Montauk that we toured the North Channel of Georgian Bay. Members have also toured the Inland Waterway through Burt, Mullet and Crooked Lakes.

Keep asking questions!

Regards - Don McIntyre
Port Huron, MI

[First tee]

Our dock and hoist are permanent. The dock has a concrete deck and is mounted on some hefty steel posts. The hoist is rated at 10,000 pounds, so weight is a not a concern. They were put in last year, so they have some good years left.

Since we are right on the water I don't see us trailering a boat, but you never know!

I will keep looking at used boats. So far, I haven't found much on craigslist. Most of the boats I see are from the 80's. I don't know enough about boats to feel comfortable with a boat that old. We kinda budgeted for a new boat, but I would gladly go for used if I found the right one.

Thanks for the feedback everybody! It helps me a lot.

[jimh]

Re the fuel tanks:

--the MONTAUK typically will have two six-gallon on-deck tanks. You could remove them, haul them in the car trunk, and refill them from a highway fuel station;

--the DAUNTLESS has an internal fuel tank; you will have to refuel the boat at a fuel dock; or you could haul some six-gallon tanks down to the boat and refuel it.

[jimh]

Re the engines on new boats:

Both boats have the latest version of the MERCURY 90 FOURSTROKE. There have been about four versions of this engine. If you go shopping for used late-model Montauk boats you will encounter all four versions. Mercury calls them all with the same name, so it is impossible to distinguish among them by name. Here is some guidance.

Mercury 90 FOURSTROKE Engine Models:

The oldest Mercury 90 FOURSTROKE engines are really Yamaha engines with carburetors. They are a 1.596-liter in-line four-cylinder engine with a powerhead made by Yamaha. Mercury bought thousands and thousand of these power heads from Yamaha, and attached them to a midsection and gearcase made by Mercury. These engines had carburetors. There were notorious and chronic problems with the carburetors. These engines were called Merc-aha (as in MERCury combined with yamAHA) 90 engines, and were in production until c.2005. The cowling size was disproportionate for only a 90-HP and was more like a 200-HP two-stroke classic engine; the top of the cowling was mostly flat.

Next you can find, albeit quite rare, this same Yamaha engine but updated to have a simple electronic fuel injection fuel system. These engines should be much more service-free than the carburetor versions, but I believe they were only used for a very limited time, perhaps a year. Again, no Smartcraft. This rare model is the second-generation 90 FOURSTROKE.

The third generation 90 FOURSTROKE was a completely new, all-Mercury model, derived from the basic in-line four-cylinder design of the VERADO, but without the supercharging. This engine had a displacement of 1.7-liter. Its cowling was quite unusual, as it had a rounded dome top. This family of non-supercharged engines derived from the VERADO were called (by me and then by a few magazines) the VERADITO (from Spanish, for little or petite VERADO), as a way of distinguishing them. These engines were first made around 2006. The VERADITO is large and heavy engine, but it delivers good power and performance, and has Smartcraft. The engine has many improvements compared to prior Mercury engines:

--the fit of the cowling, the latches, and the gaskets is greatly improved from earlier engines, whose cowlings were so difficult to remove that they were almost impossible to get them off; on these engines you can actually remove the cowling without being a professional weightlifter;

--the fuel induction is accomplished in an Integrated Air-Fuel Module (IAFM) which gives the engine a much cleaner layout and a more finished and well-designed mechanical appearance.

The biggest drawback of the VERADITO is the size. This engine is just enormous for a 90-HP outboard. It is, literally, more like a 200-HP outboard in its cowling size and appearance. It weighed about 400-lbs. I think that is where the specification for maxium transom weight as 410-lbs comes from. But the performance is all good.

You can see images of both the first-version Mercury 90 FOURSTROKE and the third-version Mercury 90 FOURSTROKE in a photo-library from Warren (WT), who owned both. He had so much trouble with the carburetor MercAha engine that he was given very generous "consideration" when he traded that engine in and bought the VERADITO version:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/warrent/library/Montauk%20Kicker?sort=4&page=1

The final version of the Mercury 90 FOURSTROKE came a few years later--another completely new, all-Mercury model, with some harmony with the newer 150-HP FOURSTROKE engine, which came out in 2014. The new 150-HP engine was given the name VERADOSAURUS because its design was de-evolutionary, a throwback to simpler engines. (This naming is informal, and this engine was named by Mercury as just another FOURSTROKE model. A thread I authored introduced the term VERADOSAURUS--to much discussion.) The "new" 90-HP engine has 2.1-liter displacement. Like the 150-HP, the "new" 90-HP seems to be designed with simple maintenance in mind, and the 90-HP version has a lot of displacement for the horsepower produced. These engines were something of a regression in technology, a throwback. They were designed for simplicity and for the owner to be able to perform routine maintenance without much trouble.

Here is another version of this history:

BRIEF HISTORY OF MERCURY 90-HP FOURSTROKE OUTBOARD ENGINE

2001 TO EARLY 2006

The Mercaha or YamaMerc engines
--Mercury 90-HP FourStroke using Yamaha power head
--1.596-liter displacement, four-cylinder, in-line
--four-valve, dual overhead cam
--386-lbs
--carburetor fuel induction
--no SmartCraft electronic instruments
--cowing was squarish, and about the same size as a 200-HP two-cycle engine cowling.

The simplest method to identify a Yamaha engine sold as Mercury: they don't have SmartCraft electronic instrumentation.

Around 2006 Yamaha was offering their 90-HP four-cycle engine with EFI. In a 2006 Boston Whaler catalogue, the 170 MONTAUK boat is listed as having a Mercury 90-HP EFI engine, and the pictured boat has the cowling style of the Mercaha or YamaMerc engine. I haven't found a 2006 Mercury catalogue that shows this engine. There may be a few of these Mercury-brand Yamaha-block 90-HP EFI engines, or maybe not.

2006 TO 2014

The VERADITO engines
--Mercury 90-HP FourStroke using Verado block
--1.732-liter displacement, four-cylinder, in-line
--four-valve, dual overhead cam
--399-lbs
--simple electronic fuel induction
--SmartCraft electronic instruments
--cowling was taller and had a domed round top

IN 2014 AND AFTER

The "New" or VERADOSAURUS engines
--Mercury 90-HP FourStroke using new block
--2.1-liter displacement, four-cylinder, in-line
--two-valve, single overhead cam
--359-lbs in small gear case model; 363-lbs in large gear case model
--simple electronic fuel induction
--SmartCraft electronic instruments
--cowling has new trapezoidal shape
--option of larger gear case called "Command Thrust" said to improve efficiency

[First tee]

Wow Jim. A lot to get my arms around there! Thanks!

Bruce

[jimh]

Bruce--I can make it simpler: buy an older classic MONTAUK with a non-working engine. Replace the engine with an E-TEC 90 from Lockeman's Hardware and Boat in Detroit.

[Wweez]

We know of the problems of the yamaha mercury engines. The fuel passages are Very small, allowowing/encouraging fuel blockages, which were made much worse by alcohol in the fuel. Epa.
Many of these engines have given good service when used frequently and maintained properly.

The track records of the more recent offerings are a bit more difficult to teack because of the cute and confusing names given. They have had some problems also.
Good luck!

Center console. Standing, knees can take pounding for awhile. open air boat with bimini. Fishing, sports, diving.
Dual console. Sitting, kidneys take pounding for awhile. Some may offer windshields w partial or full canvas. More comfortable for cooler days and cruising.
Are there any boat clubs in your area?

[Dutchman]

If you look around there are enough good dependable Whalers here in Michigan.

If you are going new I would recommend the Montauk 170 as it is $10,000 to$13,000 less than a Dauntless having the same options for electronics, canvas and fishing; the Montauk gives you more walk around space.

Make sure you include the aft port-and-starboard seats (when having live well) or the aft bench seat, as they will make it a much nicer family boat.
Find a couple-years-old one--for instance here is a not-so-bad deal https://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/boa/5997937176.html
Good luck and we hope to welcome you to the Whaler family.

[First tee]

Hadn't checked the forum in a few days. Thanks for the additional info/opinions.

We remain in the discussion phase, but recognize the season is getting closer!

[andygere]

I have owned a classic Montauk 17, and I currently own a 1999 Dauntless 16. Here are some comments on both:

Montauk: Simple, light boat, strong performance with 90 hp. There are a lot of these boats around since they were made for many years, so you may have more selection. Portable tanks may be seen as an advantage or a disadvantage for a lift-kept boat, depending on your perspective. They can be removed from the boat for fueling at the local gas station, but a full 12 gallon tank is really heavy, and they take up deck space. 24 gallons will go a while depending on motor, but will need to be filled more often than the Dauntless with equal power. The Montauk has very little seating, just the RPS and the cooler seat in front of the console. A cushion can be added to the bow locker to provide another seating space. The boat is very stable and easy to handle. It will pound to some degree in a chop as any 17' boat will if you run it too fast for conditions. There are more Mills canvas options for the classic Montauk than the Dauntless. The forward shelter will extend your boating longer into the year than anything else.

Dauntless: Another simple boat, but a bit heavier, although well within the limits of your lift. There are not nearly as many of these boats around on the used market, but they are not impossible to find. The built-in fuel tank holds 40 gallons, so you can go a long time before having to fuel. The aft mounted fuel filler could be filled with jerry cans if needed. The Dauntless has a lot more seating, including jump seats on either side of the outboard, the RPS, cooler seat and the bow cushion. The boat is wider, so it's easier to move around the console to get to the bow. There is a lot more storage on the Dauntless, including the areas under the jump seats, under the RPS (enclosed but not water tight) and inside the console, which goes below the deck level. The Dauntless is slightly better in chop, in part for it's weight but also a more forgiving hull design. This is not a major difference, but it's noticeable. The Dauntless is slower to get on plane with a 90 hp, but performs just fine. If you can find one with a 115, it would be preferred. The Dauntless has a very convenient built-in swim ladder and sort of a swim step molded into the transom that makes it very easy to get in an out of the boat. There are various add-on options for the Montauk, but none as convenient or sturdy as that on the Dauntless.

These are both good entry level boats, and if you find one in good condition that's been well maintained, either one will provide a great deal of enjoyment for you and your family.