Boat Lighting for Running at Night

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Whalerdog
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Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whalerdog » Mon May 29, 2017 10:45 am

I seek advice on installing some LED lamps on my 190 Montauk.

Is the windshield railing a lamp mounting location for running at night?

Do lamps throw enough light to see at night when running even at 25-MPH?

I see cheap stuff and more pricey stuff at the marine supply. I want to buy something that will last and is good for running. Thanks.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Mon May 29, 2017 2:10 pm

You cannot install any sort of cockpit lighting or other lighting on your boat that interferes with the required navigation lighting. Installing very bright forward facing lamps would likely interfere with the visibility of the required sidelights.

You should carefully study the MARINE SAFETY ALERT published by the Coast Guard about NAVIGATION LIGHTS. Get an electronic copy at

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg545/alerts/1015.pdf

In particular, note this very strong advice:

Boaters should be concerned about installing "decorative" lighting on their boats in various places, including underwater, on the rubrail, or just above the waterline. Care must be taken that these lights:

--cannot be mistaken for navigation lights,

--do not impair the visibility or distinctive character of approved and properly placed navigation lights, and

--do not interfere with the operator’s ability to maintain a proper lookout. Such circumstances may represent a violation of Rule 20.


This is a reference to the Colregs, Rule 20 Lights and Shapes, Application, part (b):

The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.


If running at night with very strong, bright, forward facing light, they will obscure the proper lights, and interfere with your own keeping look-out, as well as blinding other boats approaching you.

There is no practical way on a small boat to get out of the penumbra of a strong lamp fixture throwing bright light forward, and your night vision will be reduced or eliminated. In reality, on a dark night the use of strong forward facing light generally makes the helmsman's visibility worse than when without the forward facing lights.

There are also regulations on some water that explicitly prohibit forward facing fixed lamps.

I can't offer any recommendation on a particular lamp or fixture. There are just too many choices, from $5 fixtures made in some backwater of Asia, to $500 fixtures made in Switzerland.

Whalerdog
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whalerdog » Mon May 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Thanks for info

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Re:Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby cleep1700 » Tue May 30, 2017 8:26 am

Red interior lighting is much easier on the eyes and makes things more discernible. I installed a small strip on my console and love it.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby padrefigure » Tue May 30, 2017 11:30 am

Aside from the regulations, it is almost impossible to create the equivalent of automotive headlights in a nighttime boating situation. The conditions vary so much from wind, to waves to fog. I'm not talking about a socked in deep fog bank; just a little nighttime humidity creates enough of a cloud at water level to scatter directional light back into an operators eyes. If you truly want to "see" what is out there, install radar. But understand that you will see only things big enough to separate themselves from the background. So you will boats and oil platforms and maybe floating debris. But you will probably not see a pallet floating in a line of sargassum when there is a bit wind wave to wrinkle the water's surface. Another less expensive option is AIS which is available as a plugin on some GPS systems. It will show you boats and platforms that have a transponder.

Better yet, slow down and enjoy the cruise. Night time transit can be pretty cool. Just don't go if you are in a hurry.

Whalerdog
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whalerdog » Wed May 31, 2017 7:57 pm

padrefigure wrote:...Better yet, slow down and enjoy the cruise. Night time transit can be pretty cool. Just don't go if you are in a hurry.

If I am not doing 20 I will be off plane in short order. Not looking to do 90. Few people have been killed at night here flying around and hitting a pilings. Just looking to see a bit ahead as there are marshes around here.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Dutchman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:08 pm

If you want to see what is ahead once [in] a while at night while boating in your area, I recommend you just get a handheld spotlight. You can get a Dorcy (1-million candle power or more) 12-Volt plug-in or rechargeable for $20 to $30. You can sweep it for a second or less in a 180-degree arc, and it won't interfere with your adjusted night vision and the navigation lights on your or other vessels.

If you are that worried about vision get some FLIR night vision equipment see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drKy5_Kgu3U which is $500.

On a small boat like yours I wouldn't mount a permanent spot light; use one of the solutions as described above.]

Remember you see more in all direction with pupils adjusted to the no light than you would with a direct pointed light beam with everything outside the beam not visible.
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:05 am

I have a bit of experience boating at night in very dark and remote areas. I have found that the smaller the light source the better it works for illuminating ahead. The light from a small handheld Maglite flashlight works better than a large spotlight. There is too much penumbra in the spotlight beam. It spoils your night vision.

If you must go along at 25-MPH in total darkness in areas where there is known to be unlighted hazards, you'd better get an aluminum welded plate boat and wear a crash helmet.

Whalerdog
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whalerdog » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:00 pm

After 64 years I am aware to not out run my line of sight in a car or a boat. I [h]ave a spotlight also but it takes one hand to hold.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whaler64 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Well, hate for this to be my first post, but here it goes.

I spent five years in the USCG, exclusively at small boat stations, running 41 and 44-foot SAR boats, as well as other assorted Whalers and RIBS. I also spent eight years running various commercial vessels from tugs and passenger boats to a 168-foot research vessel. My experience is this: you will see FAR more at night, utilizing ambient light than you ever will utilizing a spotlight or some type of headlight. The darker you can make your immediate environment, the better you will be able to see. Continuous use of a searchlight and spotlight not only destroys your night vision, but also distracts and destroys the night vision of other mariners.

Picking through a mangrove at idle speed may require a little more use of a searchlight than navigating open water, or a marked channel, but the same rules apply. Excessive use will result in severely degraded night vision. A trick we used was to close one eye when we activated the searchlight, thus preserving night vision in one eye.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Wweez » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:55 pm

Whaler 64--thanks for sharing your experiences. Most folk believe that more is the solution. With boats on open water without center stripes, less light is better.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby termooch » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:26 pm

A friend one night while coming home from a restaurant on the water was stopped by the Coast Guard, who told him the same things I heard in this post: you can't use any sort of light at night to direct your boat.

He did come up with a great idea which he told me worked like a champ. He [uses] a single spy glass night vision device.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:41 pm

I always prefer first-hand comments and recommendations over recitations of second-hand advice. Therefore I give far more weight to the advice from the Coast Guard fellow (WHALER64) with extensive experience and really no weight at all to the anecdotal second-hand advice given to use a monocular night-vision device.

If someone wants to recommend using a monocular night-vision device, please buy one and try it first.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby InVision » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:53 pm

AMEN Jim !!
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Re: definition of Penumbra

Postby Phil T » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:18 am

There is too much penumbra


Penumbra: Noun, A shadowy, indefinate or marginal area.
cf: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/penumbra?s=t

(I had no idea what it meant and assume some of you didn't either)
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Dutchman
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Dutchman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:03 am

Thanks Phil and bottom line, as taught in the boy scouts [more than] 50 years ago--and still true--let your eyes adjust and you'll see more than when using an external light source.

I never use(d) and external or extra light source when boating in open water, but I have used a spotlight when landing my boats in a slip or at a landing orlaunch enabling you a slightly better sight of depth.

It might be nice to be on plane but only go as fast as you want to hit something, that is, slow down even if you know your area.
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:28 pm

We had a highly experienced local charter captain killed a couple of nights ago just off Ono Island in Orange Beach, AL. He ran over a sand bar at high speed and turned his boat over. His two clients were not seriously injured. No one was wearing a PFD.
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Re: definition of Penumbra

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:48 pm

If a definition for penumbra is to be used, I prefer this more precise one:

...the partial or imperfect shadow outside the complete shadow of an opaque body...where the light from the source of illumination is only partly cut off.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:00 pm

For human eyesight to become fully dark-adapted requires a long time, perhaps as much as a half-hour. Exposure to any sort of bright light tends to reverse the dark adaptation process, called light adaptation. The time for light adaptation to occur is much shorter, usually less than five minutes.

More at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Dark_adaptation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye)#Light_adaptation

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Re: should cars have headlights

Postby Whalerdog » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:33 pm

Dutchman wrote:Thanks Phil and bottom line, as taught in the boy scouts [more than] 50 years ago--and still true--let your eyes adjust and you'll see more than when using an external light source.

I never use(d) and external or extra light source when boating in open water, but I have used a spotlight when landing my boats in a slip or at a landing orlaunch enabling you a slightly better sight of depth.

It might be nice to be on plane but only go as fast as you want to hit something, that is, slow down even if you know your area.


If your first paragraph is true should cars have headlights?

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Re: should cars have headlights

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:12 pm

Of course cars shouldn't have headlights. We can spend our time driving at night at speeds that don't exceed our ability to stop when we can see an obstruction. And, really, who cares if other cars can see us as they will also be going slowly enough to stop if we are in their way.

Good call.
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Re: speed at night

Postby Whalerdog » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:26 pm

Jefecinco wrote:Of course cars shouldn't have headlights. We can spend our time driving at night at speeds that don't exceed our ability to stop when we can see an obstruction. And, really, who cares if other cars can see us as they will also be going slowly enough to stop if we are in their way.

Good call.


So what speed should a boat go at night? Street lights and flashlights are useless?

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Re: speed at night

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:31 am

If you are an old geezer, like me, and have cataracts I'd say stay off the water at night until you get new lenses. If you just have to get out there at night then idle speed. If your vision is unaffected by age you jut have to use your judgement. I can't imagine trying to operate a boat in unfamiliar waters at night. If you know the waters, are perfectly sober, remain in marked channels and have good night vision, operating on plane to the limits of your vision sounds good to me. Just remember there are impaired idiots out there who think they know what they are doing.
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Dutchman
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Re: need for speed

Postby Dutchman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:24 pm

Whalerdog wrote:
Dutchman wrote:Thanks Phil and bottom line, as taught in the boy scouts [more than] 50 years ago--and still true--let your eyes adjust and you'll see more than when using an external light source.


If your first paragraph is true should cars have headlights?


Jefecinco already answered that. We live in a society that everything is in the NOW. If I look at my engine hour record data, 75-percent of the time the engine speed below 2,000-RPM and I am cruising, enjoying my surroundings, and relaxing on the boat. Why does a 17-foor or smaller Whaler have to go 45-MPH?

Is that so you can get there 30 seconds or a minute quicker?
Enjoy life and your Whaler time flies by already.
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Re: safe speed

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:02 pm

The federal rules on boat operation require that you operate at a safe speed. It seems clear that going really fast on the water on a dark night is not a safe speed. Here is an excerpt from the federal regulations:

RULE 6: SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she
can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be
stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

The state of visibility;

The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;

The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance
and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;

At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or
from back scatter from her own lights;

The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;

The draft in relation to the available depth of water...

Cf.: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule06

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:29 pm

For an example of an unsafe speed at night, refer to the allision of a 32-foot boat at a speed of about 65-MPH with the north side of the Miami Government Cut north jetty that occurred September 25, 2016. See the redacted accident report:

http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/ ... Report.pdf

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby GoldenDaze » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:06 pm

That makes for sad reading.
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Whalerdog
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Re: need for speed

Postby Whalerdog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:42 pm

Dutchman wrote:
Whalerdog wrote:
Dutchman wrote:Thanks Phil and bottom line, as taught in the boy scouts [more than] 50 years ago--and still true--let your eyes adjust and you'll see more than when using an external light source.


If your first paragraph is true should cars have headlights?


Jefecinco already answered that. We live in a society that everything is in the NOW. If I look at my engine hour record data, 75-percent of the time the engine speed below 2,000-RPM and I am cruising, enjoying my surroundings, and relaxing on the boat. Why does a 17-foor or smaller Whaler have to go 45-MPH?

Is that so you can get there 30 seconds or a minute quicker?
Enjoy life and your Whaler time flies by already.


99 percent of cars on road go 90 mph if not way more. Speed limit is 65 mph. If I go somewhere at night I think I need to get on plane to get there. Just went to a couple of boat shows, Norwalk CT & Tobay NY. The amount of power on all the boats was big. If I want to crawl somewhere I have 6 kayaks.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Whalerdog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:49 pm

Eyes are fine cataracts gone 6+ years ago. Near perfect vision. Kayak at night all the time. Surgery was a miracle.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby jimh » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:33 am

Above is a good examples of rationalizing a problem to fit a behavior.

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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:49 am

Agreed, cataract surgery is miraculous. My father discovered I was badly nearsighted when I was six years old. I wore progressively stronger spectacles until the surgery and now have better than 20:20 vision in both eyes. But, my night vision was only slightly improved.

For relatively low cost one can purchase some wonderful night vision monoculars, binoculars or goggles and operate a boat on plane with reasonable safety at night. Relatively is used in comparison to harming your boat, self or loved ones or those of another. Imagine the economical loss of a collision at sea at night much less the emotional damage. People die from such events.
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby Dutchman » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:59 pm

jimh wrote:Above is a good examples of rationalizing a problem to fit a behavior.


Agreed Hit the nail on the head Jim
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Re: Boat Lighting for Running at Night

Postby brianbeech » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:03 am

I have two lights mounted on my skiff (non-Whaler aluminum jobby). They're almost the full length of the boat in front of me and facing forward; the light beam and cone of the flood is roughly 12 feet away and in the opposite direction. They cast a good ways - maybe 150 to 200 yards.

With this setup, I can see where I'm going down the dark portion of the bayou without going night-blind. I find it to be very useful for the fishing/navigating activities I'm doing.

In this case, it's much like the headlight on a car, where there is separation of darkness between myself and the light source and does not contribute (in a meaningful way) to night-blindness for myself.

I would recommend this - depending on your environment.

My environment is: Singular boat at idle speed on a narrow bayou. Flipping the light on for five to ten seconds to make sure I'm lined up with where I believe I am, and flipping it off. I've never used a light source like this to go more than 5-MPH ever. As I'm docking my boat at our pier, I will flip it on as I don't have power on the dock yet. This light will flood my pier and my property only.

I can't imaging running faster than idle or 5-MPH while being dependent an a light source. I find that I can run 20-MPH in the Bay because I know the waterway and have my ambient lighting on the boat as low as possible. There's always a chance of hitting something small floating in the water, but that would only be on a night with a new moon; the moon typically allows enough light to see something different in the water ahead.

This is just my experience, and I feel safe due to the lack of boat traffic and the very narrow and untraveled bayou I'm on; I have never met a boat at night or during the day on that stretch of bayou.