Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

A conversation among Whalers
bilbndr
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:34 pm

Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby bilbndr » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 am

Hi All. I have been out of boating for about 15 years and plant to get back on the water. My previous boat was a Proline 23 center console. I think a Boston Whaler would be just great and I am considering a 21- to 22-foot boat for fishing and water sports with grandchildren. I'll be using the boat around Sandy Hook and Raritan Bay, New Jersey, with occasional run out in ocean, but probably not more than 10-miles offshore. I am thinking that an 210 Outrage 210 or 210 MONTAUK would be boats of good size and within budget. I didn't consider the Dauntless, because It appears to be more for inland lakes. Here are my questions:

Is a 21-footer large enough for my purpose? I need room for four adults for fishing, then three adults and three six-to-ten-year-old children for tubing and water skiing.

Can I tow these boats with a 6000-lb tow capacity vehicle?

What is the oldest year I should consider if I don't want to do a lot of work reconditioning?

Is $35,000 to $45,000 a realistic budget for a boat in very nice condition?

All opinions welcome.

jimh
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Re: Tow Rating Estimate

Postby jimh » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Re the vehicle tow rating needed to tow either a 210 OUTRAGE or 210 MONTAUK:

The boat hulls have the following weight

    210 OUTRAGE = 2,700-lbs (700-lbs max. engine weight, so 3,400-lbs with engine)
    210 MONTAUK = 3,464-lbs with engine
Let's round up and say either boat could weigh 3,500-lbs

If you get a tandem axle steel trailer, it will probably weight around 1,100-lbs, possibly more if you carry a spare tire. To be conservative, let's say 1,200-lbs.

Now we have the boat, 3,500-lbs, and the trailer 1,200-lbs. The boat will probably have some fuel in its tank. Let's figure there are 30-gallons of gasoline at 6.25-lbs per gallon; that totals about 190-lbs. There is probably at least 200-lbs of permanent gear on the boat, such as anchors, swim ladders, batteries, PFDs, lines, and so on. Now we total up the weights:

Boat and engine = 3,500
Trailer = 1,200
Fuel on boat = 190
Gear on boat =200
TOTAL load 5,090-lbs

You might think, heck, that is below the 6,000-lbs tow rating. But you must also consider a few more weights. If you have any other passengers in the tow vehicle, their weight must be subtracted from the tow rating. Any gear in the vehicle must also be subtracted. If you have another adult and three children--without insulting anyone--I'd estimate that is an addition 500-lbs. Add that to the trailer weight, and we've got a total load on the tow vehicle of 5,590-lbs. Yep, we are still below the 6,000-lbs tow rating. So I think you can safely tow either a 210 MONTAUK or 210 OUTRAGE with a vehicle rated at 6,000-lbs. But you will be much closer to the maximum limit than you might think.

You can shave off some weight if you get an aluminum trailer. Don't bring the whole family in one vehicle to the launch ramp. Make your fishing buddies drive in a separate car.

bilbndr
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:34 pm

Re: Tow Rating Estimate

Postby bilbndr » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:18 pm

OK. Thanks. Your analysis shows that [a tow vehicle with 6,000-lbs tow rating] will probably work for me; towing is only short distances over relatively flat terrain. Good analysis, and it points out that a 23-foot Whaler would be over the limit.

jimh
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Re: Estimating Towed Weight

Postby jimh » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:19 pm

For a bit of detail regarding finding boat and trailer weights, see

Boat Weight From Certified Scale
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016667.html

Jefecinco
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:45 pm

If you intend to do more fishing than family boating the Outrage will provide a better ride in most offshore conditions. The Montauk is a decent offshore boat but the Outrage has more deadrise and will be more comfortable in choppy conditions. For family outings I believe the Dauntless is the better boat and it will provide a better ride in a chop than the Montauk. I believe for the uses you describe the Montauk comes in last. If family outings will be your dominant activity I believe the Dauntless wins. If fishing is going to be your main activity the Outrage wins. However, the Dauntless is a close second as a fishing vessel. It may be your best compromise boat for family outings and offshore fishing.

The Dauntless is definitely not a small lake boat but it would certainly be at home on the Great Lakes.
Butch

bilbndr
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby bilbndr » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:34 am

I would say fishing is probably primary. I know the bay can get rough on weekends with all the boat traffic. Also I see a lot more OUTRAGE boats for sale on the used market than the other models, at least here in New Jersey.

Is a 210 OUTRAGE large enough for four men to go fishing?

jimh
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Re: What models are common on the used market

Postby jimh » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:42 am

A 210 MONTAUK is a fairly recent model, so owners of those boats may not be selling them at the moment. The 210 OUTRAGE is an older model, and there may be more of them on the used market just due to their age.

msirof2001
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Location: Southern California

Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby msirof2001 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:33 am

With my 1995 21 OUTRAGE, which has the same hull for model years 1993 through 1997, this boat was perfect for fishing in the ocean and with four people. It was ideal. I owned it from 1994 through 2017. Between 4,000 and 5,000 hours on the ocean. My experience is that you need a V-hull in order to combat the pounding from the 12-to-20-knot winds which I commonly encountered. I don't know that I could have accomplished all that I did with a Montauk, not quite as v-shaped and not deeper hull. While later year models of the 21 OUTRAGE we're not exactly the same, they were similar enough for me to say that they would be suitable for your intended use. I personally would shy away from the Montauk and gravitate towards the OUTRAGE.
Current: 2017 Everglades 295cc, Previous1: 1995 Boston Whaler Outrage 21, Previous2: 1974 Sevylor Caravelle 3-man liferaft.

vze2gbs4
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:34 pm

Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby vze2gbs4 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:46 am

I have owned both 210 OUTRAGE and 210 MONTAUK, and my boating is primarily in these same waters you mentioned here: North Jersey with occasional trips 20-miles offshore. There is no question the OUTRAGE is a better boat than a MONTAUK for our very choppy waters here north. You will definitely be able to find 2002 to 2006 OUTRAGE used boats within your budget. Heck, you can even get 220 OUTRAGE for around $42,000 to $44,000. Strong Marine on Long Island has one.

The only negative about the 210 OUTRAGE is lack of bathroom in the console that those youngsters may need. If a toilet is must consider a 1998 to 2001 21 OUTRAGE. If you are interested, I have 2001 21 OUTRAGE for sale for $14,000, and it has a trailer that is included. The great heavy hull handles waves easy and has great layout. If you are interested or have any other questions about your boat choice, let me know. Andrew from North Jersey

rtk
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby rtk » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:38 am

I had a 1997 21 OUTRAGE from 2003 to 2014. I used it predominantly for coastal New Jersey fishing out to 20 miles. It was a perfect small boat for this area.

I would recommend a Boston Whaler 21 or 210 Ventura for combined fishing and recreational use. My center console was great for fish-ability but for comfortable cruising and socializing I think the Ventura would fit those needs better without sacrificing near shore fishing capability.

Rich

bilbndr
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby bilbndr » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:55 am

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I am beginning my shopping now for either a DAUNTLESS or an OUTRAGE boat. Since fishing is primary, the OUTRAGE is my first choice. It looks like there are very few to choose from in Boat Trader now. I guess that will pick up in the spring, along with the prices.

legacy
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby legacy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:33 pm

I own a 1971 Whaler [21] Outrage - often referred to as a "banana hull" or "ribside" and use the boat in Raritan Bay and down off Sea Bright for fishing as well as tubing in Sandy Hook Bay. I can assure you that this model hull is more of a bay boat and is too small for three adults and multiple children. I would recommend an Outrage 24 model as this will have more room than the 21 Outrage and will provide better rough water performance. I also own a Henriques 35 Express for offshore fishing and know how hard the afternoon SW winds blow in the summer. The larger 24 Outrage will serve you well coming around the Hook with an outgoing tide hitting that SE or SW wind.

With the budget you outlined you should be able to find a later year model Outrage 24 in good shape. Good luck with your search and see you on the water. The name of our Henriques is Legacy (light green hull) and the Whaler is a ribside which is a fairly rare Whaler to see in our area.

porthole
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Location: Jersey Shore

Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby porthole » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:35 am

My 2 cents. I have a 1999 21 Outrage (and it is for sale, but not why I am posting here).

The boat is a great boat. Because of it's weight and hull design it is a good running boat when it gets a little sloppy. Mine drifts a predictable set when fluke fishing and runs a pretty good line when trolling. Some of these Accutrak hulls tend to 'wobble' at slow speeds, but you quickly get used to it.

The 1999-2001 21 Outrage models are probably the smallest boats with a head (porta-potti), some are plumbed, some are not.
The catalog also incorrectly lists the hull weight. Bare hull for this year/model is 3000 pounds, add motor, T-top (many have), 125 gallons of fuel and gear and I figure I have a 5000 pound boat.

That head is not without it's drawbacks. To accommodate the porta-potti, the console is physically larger then prior and post model years.

The freeboard is excellent with this model run, and one of the reasons I sought this particular model and year.

The capacity plate lists 10 adults. No way would I ever try with 10 adults. At the max there is only practical seating for 8.

Fishing - 1 is great 2 is still pretty good, 3 is what I would want to limit at for 3 adult folks fishing.
Cruising - last ride we did was 4 adults and two children (7 & 3). Boat was more then adequate for a couple hours of riding around.

The 2001 21 Outrage mentioned above for $14,000 if in decent condition is a bargain. I have turned down multiple offers of $19,000 for mine.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

porthole
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Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby porthole » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 am

Another note, in the same size the Ventura is very similar in hull but with an open deck with dual consoles with a real stand up head in the port console.

The Dauntless in the same size is also a very similar hull, but the deck is more set up for family fun. To gain deck space the gunwales are very narrow--[perhaps] not even wide enough for a rod holder. I have three rod holders in each gunwale on my 21 Outrage.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

msirof2001
Posts: 84
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Location: Southern California

Re: Whaler for Fishing and Water Skiing Near Sandy Hook, New Jersey

Postby msirof2001 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:44 pm

With my 1995 21 OUTRAGE, fishing with 4 people was fine but definitely any more than that was tight. I like the Ventura and it is good for fishing too. If you are fishing for game species like larger Tuna, Jacks and Billfish, the ability to circle around the deck of the boat is better with the OUTRAGE. If you are mixing 50%/50% fishing/cruising, maybe the Ventura. The Ventura has the deeper hull like the same sized OUTRAGE. Nice to have a head in the 1999+ year-model OUTRAGE. In the 1995 (Same as 1993-1997), the head was very large. In fact, so large that it covered about 75% of the earth's surface. Big plus having one in the boat. I don't like the Dauntless for two reasons. Hull isn't as deep-V as the OUTRAGE 21 and would not have worked out well on many of the days I was out in the ocean. Secondly, across the Dauntless line, I don't see any utility in that large raised area between the cockpit and engines. Takes away from cockpit space. In the West-Coast, the species used for bait are sensitive and we need specifically plumbed, oversize bait tanks. 40-60 Gallons for a 21 footer is best. The OUTRAGE has the space, I don't see the Dauntless working out. What East-Coast boat manufacturers call "Livewells" in the West-Coast are referred to as "Deadwells". I'm not sure what your requirements are but if you were West-Coast, this is something to consider. If you are in the East Coast (Sandy Hook, NJ), depending on what you're fishing for, this may or may not be a factor.
Current: 2017 Everglades 295cc, Previous1: 1995 Boston Whaler Outrage 21, Previous2: 1974 Sevylor Caravelle 3-man liferaft.