Overpowering and Insurance

A conversation among Whalers
Onlyawhaler005
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Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Onlyawhaler005 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:11 pm

There are quite a few threads on the archived forum about overpowering and insurance. From those discussions I have gathered the following:

1- Don't do it
2- Even if you call in a boat/engine combo that is overpowered it may get through the front door or insurance salesmen who may not know or understand and a policy issued.
3- In an accident, its possible the insurance company may walk away from an overpowered situation, leaving you to hold the bag.

That's been my takeaway from the prior discussions.

On a newer post I noticed a Montauk 17 (90hp max) in a discussion that was repowered up to a 115HO. A FAST Montauk! It was mentioned that BoatUS was OK with it. My immediate thought was "are they really?" Does BoatUS really know and understand?

I may be repowering my 20 Outrage (225 max) this year to a 3 star something as Lake Powell here in Utah is moving towards cleaner requirements.
At elevation, the horsepower is down and I constantly am wishing for more, but don't want to get caught up in an insurance mess.

So I called BoatUS and had an extended talk, not only with the "front office" but also the underwriters "back office" I have heard BoatUS is a good choice and I was SHOCKED to find that they would accept 25hp over the max rating of my boat! And put it in writing with no upcharge or special limitations. I have instantly starting looking at the offerings of 250 HOs or Vmax to get the best out of the 250 max they will accept. Note that in my case it was "25" over, no more. Had I showed up with a 300 it would have been a flat no.

So there it is, a major carrier willing to go 25 over without any entanglements. The only downside I could see in doing this would be if I later sold the boat with the 25 over the limit engine situation. I can insure myself, no guarantee the next person would do it and if that could potentially come back.

Any opinions
thanks
Onlyawhaler

Jefecinco
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:21 pm

I believe the anxiety over modest "over powering" of boats is misplaced. Although the example is a reach, why is there no concern over over powering of vehicles? If one recalibrates the vehicles ECU to provide much more power or installs a turbo or super charger to a vehicle that seems to be no problem. My vehicle polices state that the insurance will not pay for damage incurred when racing or in competition. That seems to be the only caveat in my policies.

Discussions on other forums seem to largely back up the notion that modest or reasonable over powering of boats is not a problem.
Butch

Ridge Runner
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Ridge Runner » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:00 pm

Onlyawhaler - your reference to the 170 Montauk is my boat. I also talked at length with multiple BoatUS people before going forward with my repower(s). The outboard manufacture's marketed horse power of 115 was the maximum they would insure any they were very careful to have me send them the spec's on the outboard. They also made it very clear that the maximum outboard weight on the capacity listed by BW (410lbs for the 170 Montauk) was not exceeded.
Member since 2005
2005 170 Montauk, 2010 E-TEC 115 H.O.
2016 210 Montauk, 2017 E-TEC G2 200 H.O.

"Red sky at night, sailor’s delight - Red sky in the morning, sailor’s warning”

Onlyawhaler005
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Onlyawhaler005 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:33 pm

Thanks RidgeRunner,

You have been the first I know of that has done this with a major carrier and and done the homework to be sure it was approved in "underwriting"
It has opened the possibilities to me in my upcoming repower this spring to go up 25hp and in an HO which I could really use in upper elevations.

Question back to you. If you move on and sell your Montauk with the E-tec 115HO, would you sell it in its current configuration with that engine?
Any concerns there?

Thanks
Sterling

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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Ridge Runner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:13 am

Sterling -

I have done two re-powers on a 170 Montauk. I still own the 170 Montauk with the ETEC 115HO, but I sold the 170 Montauk that I repowered with the Mercury OPTIMAX PRO XS 115. I had a lot of interest in the boat and it sold very quickly in about 7 days after advertising it. The purchaser was a Marine Police Sergeant who's work boat was the commercial version of the 170 Montauk - he loved the fact that the boat was more responsive then his patrol boat with a 90hp.

He also used BoatUS to insure his new purchase - we chatted about over powering and he told me that from his point of view that it wouldn't be grounds for him to ticket anyone just for being over powered. He said the only thing that matters is if the operator is running a vessel in a reckless manner regardless of the horse power.

I have also had unsolicited "offers" on my 170 Montauk with the ETEC 115HO. I have no concerns if I decided to sell the boat with the current configuration it would sell quickly. I will say that most boat dealers would not take the boat in on trade or consignment but a private sale should not be a problem. I wouldn't think twice about putting a 250HO on your stern.

Joe
Member since 2005
2005 170 Montauk, 2010 E-TEC 115 H.O.
2016 210 Montauk, 2017 E-TEC G2 200 H.O.

"Red sky at night, sailor’s delight - Red sky in the morning, sailor’s warning”

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Dutchman
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Dutchman » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:53 am

OnlyaWhaler like you said you are 3700 ft above sea-level at which the OB manufacturers rate their engines. Hence your 250HP won't give you 250HP with the less dense air. Rule of thumb is between 3%-4% for very 1,000 ft. deration, which equates in less than 223HP on the high side and 213HP on the low end of your situation which would be within your 225 rating.
I agree with the statement that weight is the more determining factor as well is responsible driving, but you only know if insurance stands behind what they say up front until you need it.
EJO
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50th edition 2008 Montauk 150, w/60HP Mercury Bigfoot

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Phil T
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Phil T » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:51 pm

If you review the archived threads, you will read there are many companies that will insure a boat with a motor with a higher hp rating than the capacity plate.

The last 10 years of threads discussing insurance for a boat that has a motor exceeds the capacity plate hp rating limit start out dire. They always end up with the knowledge it is doable.

Anybody remember Tabasco repowering his brand new 2002 Montauk 170 with a Mercury 115? He insured it with Progressive.
Member since 2003
1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

gchilcott
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby gchilcott » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:55 pm

It's a little off topic, but I recently learned another useful tip on boat insurance. If you have a boat that you think is more valuable than what you expect your insurer would determine in case of a loss, there is potentially an option of an "agreed value" policy. It presumably eliminates debate about how much the boat was worth in the event of a loss and subsequent claim. If you see listings for the the same model and year for less than your boat is worth to you, it's worth investigating.

I had a slightly different situation. My boat is unusual and in good condition, but it's old. In the absence of many comparable boats on the market, I assumed that an acceptable valuation from a claims adjuster would be unlikely. So I opted for an "agreed value" policy. Though it was more expensive, it seemed worthwhile.

- Gavin

Onlyawhaler005
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Onlyawhaler005 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:07 pm

Thanks for the great feedback from everyone

Ridgerunner, did you have any problems with the dealer you purchased the Evinrude E-TEC 115 and their involvement in mounting and rigging the outboard.

I am getting more committed by each winter day to put on a 250HO something. Probably an E-TEC 250HO or a Yamaha 250SHO. I do have Yamaha rigging at this point for an older OX66.

In making a few calls today to those two dealers, both are willing to sell the engine, but don't want to be involved in the installation at all. Not at all. They want nothing to do with selling and installing anything overpowered.

Any suggestions?

Sterling
Onlyawhaler

contender
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby contender » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:35 pm

I have an older 16'7" Whaler, I run an old 140hp Evinrude Looper for power, I have never had any concern with the insurance (when I had it) or with the marine patrol/law. Sounds like I have a lot of power, however down here in south fla Im consider slow. It is now the norm to see three or four 250/300hp outboards on the back of boats. And from reading previous post on here I think the marine patrol is a lot more easy to deal with than the ones up north. They are more concern if you have the proper life jackets, flares and if your reg. is in date..PS Years ago I saw a old 16'7" whaler with a 200 hp johnson...to each there own...

Ridge Runner
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Ridge Runner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:22 pm

Sterling -

My E-TEC re-power was done directly by an authorized local Evinrude dealer. They had no problem doing the install. My OptiMax re-power I purchased the motor from a high volume Mercury dealer had it shipped to my local marina (also an authorized Mercury dealer) and my local marina did the install. My local marina couldn't come close to the price of the high volume Mercury dealer.

Joe
Member since 2005
2005 170 Montauk, 2010 E-TEC 115 H.O.
2016 210 Montauk, 2017 E-TEC G2 200 H.O.

"Red sky at night, sailor’s delight - Red sky in the morning, sailor’s warning”

flymo
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby flymo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:35 am

Sterling, are you willing to do the installation yourself? Or would the dealer be willing to get all the controls installed, and you could have a local shop hang the motor? The part that only the dealer can do is to set it up so the manufacturer will honor the warranty.

Onlyawhaler005
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Onlyawhaler005 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:52 pm

Flymo,

I could hang and install it myself if it were a Yamaha. I have existing Yamaha manual controls and the Yamaha 4.2 SHO 250hp motor is manual controls. Its interesting the SHO is manual and the Offshore 4.2 is fly by wire and completely new controls, but that's another thread.

The E-tec 250 HO is a great engine that I like, but its a total change out of everything

I am considering doing that part myself and taking it in to our Yamaha dealer for a totally check over and warranty activation. That dealer may do that ,but will not hang and rig it themselves because of the overpower concern. They are trying to be careful I guess.

Sterling
Onlyawhaler

mkelly
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby mkelly » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:26 pm

My local Yamaha dealer(s) won't touch the install either. He'll sell me the motor but no install, and more importantly, he won't work on it for repair or maintenance. That seems a bit extreme but they are being cautious. In the extreme but acceptable scenario this is how it would work: first, get my current insurance carrier to carry an acceptable policy; then purchase the engine and install it myself (I like the idea of having the shop, if willing, install the controls). If repair or maintenance come up, which they will, I would have to disconnect everything, pull the engine, then ship it in for repair. Now that I'm writing this that seems ludicrous. How would they operate the engine without controls? How much more would it cost me to have them temporarily hook something up? I think the maintenance and repair would have to been done by a mechanic in a cash off-hours type of a deal.

One compelling part of a self-install is I've never done it.

[Changed topic from insurance. Began to ask questions about rigging an engine. Please start a new thread to begin a discussion of engine rigging. Please start the discussion in REPAIRS/MODS. Thanks. The topic of this thread is insurance.--jimh]

Hoosier
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Hoosier » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:07 pm

This whole thread is about how your insurance company will view going over the rating on the capacity plate. The USCG goes by the capacity plate, go over it and you could get a citation and be told to get off the water.
1978 Outrage V20 with 2004 Suzuki DF-115. 1992 23 Walkaround with two 2010 Yamaha F-150s.

Binkster
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Binkster » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:29 pm

If you live in a state like Florida that doesn't register or give titles to outboards and you are running an older outboard such as a 3 cylinder Yamaha which is built in configurations from 50 to 90 hp, using the same block, lower unit and looks identical regardless of hp, just change out the cowling decals. Most outboards are built with various hp ratings using basically the same engine.

rich

jimh
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby jimh » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:07 pm

Hoosier wrote:This whole thread is about how your insurance company will view going over the rating on the capacity plate. The USCG goes by the capacity plate, go over it and you could get a citation and be told to get off the water.


I am sure the USCG pays attention to the capacity plate rating for number of passengers. Whether or not it adheres to the power rating is not demonstrated to my satisfaction. A publication of the USCG conflicts with the representation made above.

MAXIMUM HORSEPOWER – The maximum horsepower
information listed on the capacity label is a guide for
selecting an engine for a boat. It’s not a violation of Federal
Regulation to install or use a larger engine. Boaters should
check state regulations for restrictions. They should also
take a look at their insurance policy regarding horsepower.


Source: http://www.uscg.mil/d1/prevention/navin ... safety.pdf Page 4

Hoosier
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby Hoosier » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:16 pm

OK, ya got me on that one... Lets hope all the law enforcement officers know this.
1978 Outrage V20 with 2004 Suzuki DF-115. 1992 23 Walkaround with two 2010 Yamaha F-150s.

jimh
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Re: Overpowering and Insurance

Postby jimh » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:32 am

Binkster wrote:...just change out the cowling decals...


I do not recommend that you alter the horsepower decals on the outboard engine to show a lower horsepower for the engine in order to make it appear to comply with the maximum horsepower rating for the boat. Such a deception would be a fraud. Commission of a fraud could result in your insurance carrier no longer having any obligation to provide insurance coverage.