Large-HP Outboard Backorders

A conversation among Whalers
dtmackey
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Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby dtmackey » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:18 pm

Just read from an unofficial source that certain model Mercury engines are backordered 46-weeks and Yamaha is at 52-weeks. Here's an article on Yamaha, but does not confirm leadtime.

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/tech/yamaha-responds-to-supply-shortage-of-large-outboards

Demand for engines with new four-stroke-power-cycle technology is very strong, and I'm sure Evinrude will pick up in volume for those choosing not to accept excessive lead times.

D-

Jefecinco
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Re: Large HP outboard backorders

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:41 am

The 350 HP Yamaha engines have been a subject of much discussion on general boating sites. The flywheels on the engines require replacement every 80 operating hours that are within a fairly broad RPM range. The flywheel replacement is often done in conjunction with scheduled oil changes. The new or updated ECUs provide notice to operators when 80 hours of use withing the critical RPM band is reached.

Further development to improve flywheel life may partially explain the long delivery delays.
Butch

jimh
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:50 am

A survey of marine dealers conducted by Baird in conjunction with the Marine Retailers Association of the Americas and Soundings Trade Only was cited in TRADEONLYTODAY as producing these responses from the dealers participating in the survey:

    Q: How long are you waiting for outboard [engines] above 200-HP?

    Responses:
    30-days or less = 25-percent
    31 to 60 days = 24-percent
    61 to 90-days = 12-percent
    91-days or more = 39-percent

The survey participants were not identified by any particular brand so the inference is that the results represent an average of many brands, but there is no information provided to indicate what brands and what percentage of the respondents sold each brand.

Whalerdog
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Re: Large HP outboard backorders

Postby Whalerdog » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:29 pm

Jefecinco wrote:The 350 HP Yamaha engines have been a subject of much discussion on general boating sites. The flywheels on the engines require replacement every 80 operating hours that are within a fairly broad RPM range. The flywheel replacement is often done in conjunction with scheduled oil changes. The new or updated ECUs provide notice to operators when 80 hours of use withing the critical RPM band is reached.

Further development to improve flywheel life may partially explain the long delivery delays.


Who with a sane mind would buy that? Think of the cost of it.

jimh
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Re: Large HP outboard backorders

Postby jimh » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:02 am

Whalerdog wrote:Who with a sane mind would buy [a Yamaha 350 in light of the flywheel problems]? Think of the cost of [maintaining a Yamaha F350 engine that needs repeated replacement of the flywheel].


Maybe the 52-week delay in ordering a Yamaha F350 is just a way to discourage customers from buying more of them. Imagine the cost to Yamaha to replace all those flywheels under a warranty if the replacement interval occurs in the first few years of ownership.

Jefecinco
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:07 am

I believe Yamaha is replacing the defective flywheels regardless of warranty expiration. Doing so is probably less costly than losing virtually every owner with the problem, probably for life. It would also alienate a large group of outboard owners who may be considering a Yamaha engine in the future.

I believe they are less generous when an owner exceeds the flywheel change interval if the flywheel disintegrates and causes additional damage.

If I owned one of the problem engines a major concern would be a situation where my dealer was out of stock or had a shop backlog. What then? Just park my boat?

I believe Yamaha's previously excellent reputation for reliability has been harmed by the flywheel problem and a serious previous problem with exhaust system corrosion.

The only offshore outboard engine manufacturer brands I would consider are Honda and Suzuki.
Butch

dtmackey
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby dtmackey » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:44 pm

Jefecinco wrote:I believe Yamaha is replacing the defective flywheels regardless of warranty expiration. Doing so is probably less costly than losing virtually every owner with the problem, probably for life. It would also alienate a large group of outboard owners who may be considering a Yamaha engine in the future.

I believe they are less generous when an owner exceeds the flywheel change interval if the flywheel disintegrates and causes additional damage.

If I owned one of the problem engines a major concern would be a situation where my dealer was out of stock or had a shop backlog. What then? Just park my boat?

I believe Yamaha's previously excellent reputation for reliability has been harmed by the flywheel problem and a serious previous problem with exhaust system corrosion.

The only offshore outboard engine manufacturer brands I would consider are Honda and Suzuki.


You could be right. Yamaha walked away from many owners on previous major problems. They seem to be doing right on the 350 flywheel defect—but such a hassle for the owner due to a poor design, especially since the flywheel replacement does not coincide with oil changes. The 350-owners are a very important group for Yamaha,!and they want to keep them happy for repeat business down the road.

D-

jimh
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby jimh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:39 am

For an engine flywheel to become a wear-and-tear replacement component seems ludicrous.

I would expect the engine flywheel could be re-designed so it would have more durability. This situation going forward with perpetual service and replacement of the flywheel seems very strange. I don’t recall anything like it before.

Ridge Runner
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby Ridge Runner » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:52 pm

[The duration and engine speed allowed before flywheel replacement should be done in the Yamaha F350 engine is said to be] 80 hours in the 3500 to 4200-RPM range. Yamaha will replace the flywheel and ECU. The new ECU will now record the time in that RPM range and will give the owner a warning when it is time to replace the flywheel again. It was found that a harmonic event takes place within the engine between 3500 and 4200 -PM that over time could cause the flywheel to fracture. Yamaha has a policy of replacing the flywheel after the engine has run for 80 hours within that 3500-to-4200 range, and set up the new ECU to track those hours. This interval is not for 80-total-hours of operation, only the hours in that RPM range. It has been speculated that this engine would need a complete redesigning to solve this defect.
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Jefecinco
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:21 am

Ridge--that information is pretty much what I've heard. Unfortunately the RPM range is the range at which many engines spend a lot of their operating time.

The problem has to be disappointing to Yamaha owners and loyalists. It seems Yamaha simply brought that and some other models to the market before sufficient testing. Is Yamaha not capable of producing a reliable flywheel for that engine?

Their image is badly tarnished.
Butch

hauptjm
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby hauptjm » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:17 pm

Interesting thread.

I assumed that this was something new with the 400 hp Yamaha engines. Based on what I'm seeing all over the internet, this has been the recommendation from Yamaha for quite a few years for their bigger motors. There are multiple reports by folks from 2007, 2008 etc. large HP Yamahas that have been changing their flywheels at 80 hour intervals since new. Many of these reports appear to be by commercial/professional guide fisherman with hundreds of hours on their engines.

Oddly, most of the reports seem almost indifferent to having this service performed on a regular basis. This really surprises me as I too think this is quite ridiculous that this flaw cannot be "engineered" out to prevent this "harmonic damage" to something as basic as a flywheel.

Jefecinco
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:50 am

I assume most commercial users will perform the required oil changes themselves. That would involve less cost and shorter downtime so it makes economic sense. I have no idea how many man hours are required to replace a flywheel but, I again assume, with a lot of practice it can be done quickly. I believe the time required depends a mostly on the number or bolt-on parts that must be removed and replaced to do the work. Downtime is probably far more important for a person making a living with a boat.

Although many may seem indifferent to the periodic flywheel replacement requirement I wonder if the replacement engines they buy will be made by Yamaha.
Butch

dtmackey
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby dtmackey » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:17 am

This week a good friend just ordered two new Mercury 225 FOURSTROKE V6 engines, and his dealer gave him a delivery date six-months out. Apparently new boat manufacturers are lining up for this engine, and I'm hearing they are getting first dibs on this engine over re-power sales.

D-

jimh
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:16 pm

Re the back order on the Mercury 225 V6 FOURSTROKE:

While 225 sounds like an odd number for an engine horsepower rating, it seems like it has always been popular. Mercury removed their 225 FOURSTROKE VERADO L6 engine from the market when they introduced their 225 FOURSTROKE V6. They also abandoned their OptiMax V6 line at that horsepower. (It looks like Mercury has abandoned the entire OptiMax line, as I cannot find one listed on their current "outboard motor" page.)

dtmackey
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Re: Large-HP Outboard Backorders

Postby dtmackey » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:09 pm

jimh wrote:Re the back order on the Mercury 225 V6 FOURSTROKE:

While 225 sounds like an odd number for an engine horsepower rating, it seems like it has always been popular. Mercury removed their 225 FOURSTROKE VERADO L6 engine from the market when they introduced their 225 FOURSTROKE V6. They also abandoned their OptiMax V6 line at that horsepower. (It looks like Mercury has abandoned the entire OptiMax line, as I cannot find one listed on their current "outboard motor" page.)


Optimax was on the way out with rumors floating around for years on its departure date, and sales were minimal; the cost of keeping that line in production wasn't prudent considering the new FOURSTROKE would further erode sales. I've read that the Verado is also going the way of the Optimax due to future EPA regs that a supercharged engine had difficulty meeting. Mercury still have the VERADO 350 and 400, and to see what happens with those motors will be interesting.

The 225 is better sized to fill the gap when going with twins since a 200 and 250 offering would equate to 400 and 500hp and with the smaller boats that opted for twins, it left a large hp gap. Especially since a 100hp jump with a twin setup is a big jump for boats in the low to mid 20' lengths.

D-