16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

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svsonora
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16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:29 am

Hi. I'm a decently experienced water guy: sailing for over ten years, done 500-mile solo voyages, some small power boat experience driving tenders and such. I am thinking about getting a Boston Whaler 16 or 17-footer, then a 25-ton master's license, and start running casual, sightseeing or activity-oriented private charters in my area. The waters here are fairly well protected, and I feel like this is the perfect type of boat to experience my city from the water—closer and more connected to water.

What models should I be looking at to seat up to three passengers?

I noticed a lot of the 16 to 17-feet Boston Whaler boats have a center console. I'd think bench seats would be better, even better if I did some wood working and added backrests.

What keywords should I use to search craigslist?

I don't need to do more boat speed than 15nautical miles per hour. Most of my area is a no-wake zone.

Is a 40-HP engine sufficient for this kind of use?

Obviously, since I'm used to snail pace speeds from sailing, I would like to use the simplist and smallest four-stroke-power-cycle engine.

I think old Boston Whaler boats are the most beautiful little skiffs out there. I drool every time I see one—and I haven't even been on one.

ANY tips for this sorta thing would be appreciated.

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Phil T
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby Phil T » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:29 am

You don't say which models or year? New, classic or post-classic.

If you are going to run a charter operation, you will need gear that will not fit in a 16'-17'. There is not much room for 5 people in a 17. It will be very crowded.

You will want stability, ability to move around the boat. Space for safety equipment, radio(s) GPS, epirb, life ring etc.

I would suggest an Outrage 20,22 or 25, Ventura 210 bow rider. Adding a stern seat to the Outrage will give you the seating options your customers will want. Consider two bimini's amidships and aft for shade.

2 in the stern
2 on forward cooler seat.
bow area for kids/adults.

As for power, the minimum for a these models is significantly more. 150hp+.
1992 Outrage 17
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biggiefl
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby biggiefl » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:59 am

Classic would be an Eastport with rear bench seat. Would seat 4 passengers and you. Post- Classic you can put a stern seat in a Montauk, Specialty sells them for roughly a G note. Newer I would say possibly a Dauntless but a 16Sl or Ventura bowrider might be a good fit.

The Eastport with all the woodwork is a crowd stopper just by itself. If you like woodwork as most sailers do, great fit. A 40 will work on a 16/17 but usually a 50 is the same size and not much more $$ and resale would b better. JimH might have some pics or URL's of the boats I mentioned.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

NLA01
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby NLA01 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:26 pm

If you are looking for a boat for private charter you should look for a boat that gives the customers the comfort of maneuverability around the boat and stability of the boat. Think about the type of people who may charter. Many will have no or limited boating experience. The smaller boats will have a little more tipsy feel and you don't want someone older or heavier losing balance and falling. Or people who may have a fear of the water would feel more comfortable in the larger boat. Plus you need rooms for life vest, throwables, emergency gear for charter. The boat charter tours around here are in big big boats, like 40 foot boats.

If you are wanting to stay in the 17 foot range. look for a Super Sport 17. There are different years and hull styles to choose from. This will give you the lower profile of the bench seats you are looking for. Another option is to get a 17 Montauk and add a rear bench seat to it.

If it were me I would get a 25' Outrage with bow rail and add side rails, bimini cover and a stern seat.

Good luck with your endeavor of charter boat tours
Archie

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Phil T
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby Phil T » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:01 pm

1992 Outrage 17
2019 E-TEC 90
2018 LoadRite 18280096VT
Member since 2003

svsonora
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby svsonora » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:08 pm

Thanks guys. The tours won't be more than 20 miles total travel time, up and down the river. Not a big deal with the safety equipment. One throwabale and three more PFDs. I really need to get on one and see what it will be like. There is a guy who charges $15 for a boat ride across the river on one of those duffy boats. He does it all day. People in my area seem to pay for some ridiculous stuff.

I love how [Boston Whaler] boats have resale value. I'll try it on for myself first for a few months, take some friends out, and see what it's like. If it isn't good, I'll stick to my sailboat for charters, and either sell the Boston Whaler jor keep it for personal use, or downsize to a 13 or 15-footer.

Xray51
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Re: Boston whaler models with open seating

Postby Xray51 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:26 pm

I have a 17 classic Montauk with the bench seat, cooler seat and forward bow cushion, plus, of course the RPS seat. I have had 7 people in it at times, and it worked fine. They all had comfortable seats. I always made sure to spread them around for balance.

For your purpose, however, I would limit it to 5, so they can move around better. You could put 2 in the stern, and 2 up front, with you in the center. Although people tend to love the bow position, as they can lay out.

Previously, I had a 13 sport with the bench seats. I am not a fan of those at all. Much less comfortable. Being able to stand up and walk around in the 17 Montauk is far better.

jimh
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use.

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:56 am

If carrying less than six passengers you don’t need a 25-ton rating and a Master’s License.

Your boat will be an “un-inspected passenger vessel” which actually requires having an inspection and certificate attesting to that.

This is typically what fishing charter captains operate under—“a six-pack” license.

Read the USCG regulations for details of mandatory safety gear aboard.

Also check local laws. Having an approved marine sanitation device and holding tank may be required. That can be difficult to comply with on a 16-foot boat.

Jefecinco
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:35 am

Technically, you may be able to comply with a marine sanitation (MSD) device regulation by having a self contained (seat, valve and holding tank included) MSD with a temporary deck mounting and an approved pump-out outlet in the tank. Ridiculous as that sounds it may meet any regulatory requirement. There may be one small enough to fit in the console while people are aboard.

We sometimes hire a six-pack charter captain and boat for inshore fishing. The only sanitary device these fellows carry is an empty one gallon milk jug. I don't how the ladies may be accommodated. Nor do I know how often theses boats are inspected but I suspect they have never been inspected.

A 17 foot Montauk would be adequate if you add some comfortable seating. A 17 or 18 foot Dauntless or Ventura would be a better choice and probably provide a more comfortable ride in a slight chop.
Butch

biggiefl
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby biggiefl » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:01 am

Florida does not require a toilet as none of the flats boats have them. It was an option on the menemsha however.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

svsonora
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:22 pm

Thanks guys.

I'm going for the Master 25T inland since the requirements aren't all that different, and I can upgrade to nearshore with few more years of sea time. It'll be more useful when I'm cruising overseas with my sailboat.

I have a 'composting' head I built for my sailboat. Its a bucket with a separator. You crap into a bucket with bag full of kitty litter. --I laugh aloud-- believe it or not, it smells less than when I had a holding tank and a marine head.

Xray51, could I see some photos of your boat? I'll do some googling to look up dauntless, ventura and montauk photos.

Am I correct in assuming that if I find a boat with just the montauk center console, I can build or buy seats and install them?

biggiefl
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby biggiefl » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:33 pm

You can customize all you want. Where do you live?
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

svsonora
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Funds coming together. There are a bunch of 16/17s for sale here.

Super Sport Limited looks enticing. I think it has a look that appeals to most 'normal' people. Just noticing Montauks and other center consoles are the most common. It looks like its possible to add a bench in front of the console, especially if I shift the CC backwards about 6 inches or so. Wondering how the ride quality is going to be in front of the console.

I'm probably going to end up getting the SSL because it comes with a good engine. Though, the montauk with the yamaha 70hp 2smoke sounds great too, I hear those motors are indestructible.

Stoked about spending the rest of this fall exploring the area and familiarizing routes, docks, etc.

biggiefl
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby biggiefl » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:50 pm

Go with a 4 stroke for quietness. Slow running with a loud smoky engine is not a great option.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

svsonora
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:40 am

biggiefl wrote:Go with a 4 stroke for quietness. Slow running with a loud smoky engine is not a great option.


thanks biggieFl

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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby jimh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:36 am

If reduction of engine noise is the goal, go with an electric propulsion system.

svsonora
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:28 pm

I actually found someone who did an electric drive conversion on a 15 foot Boston Whaler boat. I think electric propulsion is better for slow water taxis and the like that don't need to plane. I have a friend who has electric propulsion on his sailboat and it runs only 20 minutes before the safe battery discharge limit is reached--and he has something like 600-Ah for his battery bank. Even with 500-Watts of solar power, the charge is miniscule while you are running the engine.

I'll be fine with a four-stroke-power-cycle engine as long as it is water cooled. I'd like to check out an E-TEC engine. I heard E-TEC engines are quiet and behave well even at idle.

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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby jimh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:57 pm

Because of their direct fuel injection, the E-TEC engine can implement a stratified charge combustion chamber technique when running at slow speeds. The fuel economy of an E-TEC engine at idle speeds cannot be matched by a four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine of the same displacement. It is not because of the difference in power-stroke-cycles, but because I don't think there are ANY direct-injection four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines made at this time, although perhaps one of the HONDA "Lean Burn" engines might use this technology. Some Honda outboard engines are adaptations of their automobile engines, but those engines tend to be larger and more powerful engines than you'd use on a 16-foot skiff like a classic Boston Whaler boat.

Direct-injection four-stroke-power-cycle engines are now beginning to appear in automobile engines, but usually they are on the more expensive luxury marques. For some perspective on automotive gasoline direct-injection (GDI) applications see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

To give you an example of the fuel economy of an E-TEC at idle speeds, my 3.3-liter V6 E-TEC rated 225-HP can run at 500-RPM pushing my 4,000-lbs boat at about 3-MPH while taking 3.5-hours to burn one-gallon of fuel, getting a fuel economy of over 10-MPG. If you run an E-TEC on the Evinrude XD100 synthetic lubricating oil and set the engine to use the special XD100 oil rate, there is essentially no smoke in the exhaust.

While many aspects of the E-TEC are very positive, I do feel that in the smaller horsepower engines the E-TEC engine may have more vibration than other designs. The E-TEC engines at 60-HP and less are only two-cylinder engines. As you might anticipate, with only two cylinders that fire in opposition, any engine won't be as smooth and free from vibration as an engine of the same displacement but employing four or more cylinders.

Ridge Runner
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby Ridge Runner » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:05 am

Jimh - There is one direct-injection four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine. Although not fit for purpose for the application being discussed. The Yamaha V8 5.6L uses direct-injection with fuel delivery up to 2900 PSI. https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/home/ ... re/v8-5-6l

Direct-injection in the automotive industry is now the dominate fuel delivery system in new passenger cars at every price point. Over 54% of vehicles sold in 2017 use gasoline direct-injection and over 120 million turbocharged GDI-powered vehicles have been produced globally since 2010.

The adoption of direct-injection in the automotive industry has not been with-out some major challenges. Early direct-injected engines have had concerns with carbon build-up on the intake valves, force-induction (turbo-charged) engines have exasperated the problems. Including a low speed pre-ignition (LSPI) concern, a condition that occurs when there is a premature ignition of the main fuel charge, resulting in very high-pressure spikes, loud noise, power loss, increased fuel consumption and potentially catastrophic damage to the engine. Oil dilution with un-burned fuel bypassing the piston rings is also a common concern with some direct-injected engines, this is a documented concern with some Honda direct-injected engines.

Some early VW, Hyundai and Ford engines require walnut shell blasting to clean the carbon off the the intake valves as early as 40,000 to 60,000 miles. Ford and Toyota have introduced hybrid port-inject & direct-injected engines to combat this concern. The newest API oil rating of SN PLus was put into place to help with these concern(s) by limiting the percentage that an oil can evaporate in order to meet the SN Plus requirements, know as the NOACK Volatility Test.

This YouTube video does a good job of explaining direct-injection technology and the concern of carbon build-up on the intake valves of an automotive GDI engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U
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svsonora
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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby svsonora » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:33 am

thank you guys, you guys are the best.

also, i dont mean to sound like im talking bad about anything, but seems to me that whaler enthusiasts tend to be more knowledgeable! glad to be joining this club.

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Re: 16 to 17-footer for Commercial Passenger Use

Postby jimh » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:24 am

Ridge Runner wrote:Jimh - There is one direct-injection four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine....The Yamaha V8 5.6L


RIDGE--as the Yamaha website informs, that big (and very expensive) XTO OFFSHORE outboard engine "is the industry's first direct-injection four-stroke..." And at 425-HP and 999-lbs that engine--as you note--won't be going on the transom of any classic Boston Whaler boats.

ALSO--in the E-TEC there are no valves. There are ports in the cylinder walls. The problems described in the linked video related to GDI engines and cylinder head valves are not applicable to the E-TEC.