Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

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Maverick
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Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 am

I plan to re-power a 1963 16-foot highly customized Boston Whaler hull with an E-TEC 90 H.O. or a Suzuki 90.

If I install either engine myself, with the factory warranty be honored?

I’ve sent questions to two dealers via e-mail and got no response.

The boat is almost ready for a new engine.

--Mav

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Phil T
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Phil T » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:09 pm

You will need an authorized dealer to activate the warranty.

Most dealers do not sell crate motors and will not want to do the activation as it is their line of business.

Don't bother emailing. CALL the dealers and talk to them.

With the shutdown, many may have limited hours or be busy in the yard. Be patient.
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jimh
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:25 pm

The best way to determine the terms of a warranty agreement is to obtain a copy of the warranty and carefully read it. Anything else will be speculation.

I speculate:

For Evinrude warranty coverage, the installation generally must be certified by an authorized dealer as being done in compliance with the Evinrude pre-delivery and installation guidelines. WIthout such certification there won't be any warranty coverage. It is not a case of honoring a warranty, because the warranty will have never been in place.

Many engine failures could be the result of poor installation, so no manufacturer is going to provide relief from damage caused by a self-installer doing poor work. Engine warranties only cover relief from the cost of repairs to defects in the original manufacture of the product, and they do not cover defects in the installation of the product.

When I bought my E-TEC, the dealer did most of the installation, but I did much of the work involving the rigging at the helm of the electronics, gauges, and engine harness. I had my boat ready for the new engine to just plug into the rigging.

The dealer I bought the engine from was very acquainted with doing re-power installations. This is another important factor. Some dealers hardly ever sell a loose engine for a re-power and tend to only work on boats with OEM boat builder installed engines. They won't be much help in a re-power situation.

Also, if buying a new engine, be aware of the timing of the purchase. Take advantage of off-season promotions which usually offer extended warranty coverage or other incentives related to a new engine purchase and rigging.

Maverick
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:32 am

Thanks Gentlemen.

ASIDE: COST OF RE-POWER
I received a few quotes back from dealerships; a Suzuki DF90 was around $12,000 installed, and E-TEC 9O H.O. was around $15,800.

One thing I had trouble understanding was a $2,500 charge for harness, binnacle control shifter, gauges, cables, oil tank, and labor to install. I figured around $750 in parts, and shop fee of maybe $100/hour tops.

Likewise, $1300 more for Baystar hydraulic steering seemed high as I can buy new system for around $700. All of this said, I thought I’d look into doing installation myself.

Oh well, probably more information that what you wanted. I’m going to keep looking, hoping to find a hungry seller. Thanks again.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:21 am

ASIDE: when judging the cost of refitting with new steering, you must consider:

  • labor to remove old steering
  • labor to install new steering
  • materials used, such as hydraulic fluid, which is crazy-expensive
  • labor to purge air from system
  • disposal of old fluid
  • cost for using power-purging tool
Working on boats is often difficult and time consuming due to working in cramped and hard to access areas.

Service providers usually do not give the customer the best possible price for parts. Some web sellers often sell items at or below a dealer cost. To expect the dealer to give you parts at his cost or below is not reasonable.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:25 am

ASIDE ON COSTS OF RE-POWER:
Maverick wrote:...I had trouble understanding ...a $2,500 charge for harness, binnacle control shifter, gauges, cables, oil tank, and labor to install. I figured around $750 in parts, and shop fee of maybe $100/hour tops.


I think your estimate of $750 cost for wiring harness, top-mount shift and throttle remote controls, cables, gauges, and oil tank is much too low.

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Phil T
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Phil T » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:23 am

Having recently completed getting quotes for repowers. Lesson shared:

You need to get a detailed quote that lists the items (part #) and price. Compare apples to apples.

Line Items:
    Steering Cable
    Throttle cables(s)
    Network Harness backbone
    Gauges (list individually)
    Binnacle
    Key Switch

    Labor to derig:
    Labor to do repairs:
    Labor in install:
    Labor to wire/install rigging:
    Labor to watertest:

I provided shops a preprinted page that listed these for them to fill in. Two shops declined to submit detailed quotes. If the shop will not break out the costs, they should be avoided.

The Suzuki top mount binnacle and key switch runs at least $400. Some shifters are more.
https://suzukioutboardmarine.com/product/suzuki-outboard-single-binnacle-control-box-kit-67000-88l02/

I found shops that are highly skilled and organized can derig, do repairs, install and rig an engine and install all new controls on a 17' or smaller boat in 8 hrs. This is the exception, not the rule.

With the increase in electronics and networking, rigging costs are growing very fast. The day of the basic $75 analog gauge are almost gone, replaced with 3.5" multifunction or 2" single function digital display or flat panel display. Network backbones and connectors are pricey bits.
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Maverick
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:28 am

At the expense of me getting off topic to my original posting titles (my apologies, friends), if you’ll allow me some additional discussion latitude - hah.

Mine is an easy installation - I’ve pre-rigged similarly to what Jim described above on his boat. I’ve done this a few times previously on Whalers to make it easy for a dealer, or for me.

Phil - I agree with your analysis and recommendation to ask for a detailed breakout.

Jim - On costs, you may be spot on with me being low. I re-googled the parts and found these, about $1100 retail, measured against the $2500 quoted me in parts and labor:

Binnacle control, $374
Control cables, $100
Oil tank, $175
Motor harness $149 (I would think this would come with motor...?)
Gauges: tach, hour, trim; $209, $50, $50

That said, $1400 labor for 8 hours work is $175/hour. For 2 techs, thats $87/hour. I think 8 hours is probably generous for my setup, I would think 4-5 hours tops, which is pushing $300/hour in labor.

Perhaps I’m just behind the times and whining but costs seem excessive. In 2015 (yes, 5 years ago) I repowered my 18’ Guardian with a 150 HO ETEC. Nearly exact same amount of work and parts: $16,800 including hydraulic steering and viper prop.

And yes, I agree that recreational boating is an optional undertaking in life and no one is compelling anyone to purchase. One has to pay to play. It does appear this activity is becoming a rich person’s activity, and I hate to see that. I know the new technology has come a long way and that costs money but sure seems a bit over the top.

Thank you both for the feedback, and for indulging my spirited discourse on this small snapshot in my latest boating endeavor. I’ll probably eventually pay the man since I seem to have little choice, at least at this time.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:48 am

P.S. No de-rigging needed. Dealer would have to saw the binnacle shifter hole, and hole a saw for tachometer. This hull was very dry and light, but well used as a beat up work boat when I purchased it cheap. I took some latitude in the mostly non-OEM refit. I used a console I already had.

16custom_.jpg
Fig. 1. Highly customized 1963 16-foot hull.
16custom_.jpg (39.73 KiB) Viewed 2016 times

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby biggiefl » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:03 pm

I will agree to disagree with most of this thread.

I have installed the SUZUKI outboard engines myself, and all came with factory warranty. Dealer signed the card when I purchased so don't take too long installing as clock is ticking.

Shop around for parts. On my last two installs (one a Johnson-Suzuki so it used BRP items to compare) I picked up the harnesses--they do not come with engine--for $100 (for the Johnson BRP) and $125 for the Suzuki, an OMC System Check Tachometer for $85, a Suzuki tachometer for $125. Engine cables were roughly $40. An hoour meter was $50. The SOLAS propeller was $225 (from Tom Clark). The remote shift and throttle controls for the Suziki were $140 and for the Johnson were $160. The battery cables were $75 to 100$, but battery cables may be included with the engine. [These prices indicate] he was not way low on his estimate.

Time to install was less than two hours. The hardest part is the engine cable adjustment. Wiring harness is just three connectors--that simple. The rest is just making it neat and tidy. So maybe four hours if areas are tight or cutting holes.

Mav--bring the boat to Florida. You buy dinner and beer. Not to mention the [low] price I can get a Suzuki 90. Let's just say I am looking at a 2019 150-HP in white for under $10,00, a 200-HP for low $11,000. To pay $15,000 for a 90hp is insane. No--it's ridiculous.

Also, if you ship the engine there won't be sales tax.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

Maverick
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Hi BiggieFl and thank you for the detailed and helpful response.

I’ve heard Suzuki wants to sell motors, and while I like the E-TEC , you and some of my neighbors on my canal have provided good reasons to think outside the box with Suzuki.

I did get a Suzuki turn-key cost estimate that was much less than the ETEC, and perhaps I will buy online and have shipped to set up myself, especially if warranty remains intact. No oil to prime, pretty simple and easy four-stroke. Like buying a lawn tractor from Home Depot but lots more fun. Just add gasoline, crankcase oil, and saltwater. If you helped, I’d be pleased to add plenty of good food and adult beverages. But alas, my friend, I’m in Texas now, was South Carolina. All of that said, I sure do appreciate your helpful experience and insight. Best, Mav

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby biggiefl » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 pm

E-Bay and marine surplus places are your best bet. Most of the items I got on E-Bay. If you have used outboard shops near you (we have plenty in Florida), they might be a good source if you want to go used or can't find something. The Suzuki harness I had to get from the dealer as at that time I could not find one and I think it was like $115. I used side mount controls which may be a bit cheaper than binnacle. Suzukis are very popular in Florida.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

fno
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby fno » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:49 am

Mav, if you are buying the beer for Nick the install will likely cost you more than having the dealer do it for you ;-)

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:07 am

Maverick wrote:...No oil to prime...

I primed the oil hose to my E-TEC back in July 2009, and have not had to prime it again since then. I don't think the lack of oil priming is a particularly significant advantage to owning a four-stroke-power-cycle outboard.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby dtmackey » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:31 am

Seems like the threshold on crate engine or cash and carry sales is in the 30 to 40-HP bracket where one can purchase and install on the boat yourself. Even then, if remote controls and rigging are involved, then you may be stuck going to the dealer for install.

D-

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby biggiefl » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:46 am

I did a 40, 70 and 115hp.
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby dtmackey » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:58 am

biggiefl wrote:I did a 40, 70 and 115hp.


I've done plenty over the years and have local dealers that would probably sell me a crate motor to me without question if I went back to have them look at the install and activate the warranty, but that's not he norm, rather the exception.

D-

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby biggiefl » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:34 pm

I have heard [about situations] where [the engine manufacturer has] a dealer inspect [the engine installation performed by the owner himself] and [the manufacturer will authorize] a warranty.

[Replaced "that" "they" and "it" with nouns and "get" with a more descriptive verb--jimh ]
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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:37 pm

Thanks for the informative replies. I’m probably going to take [my prospective purchase to] a couple dealers and try to work a sharp pencil deal. I’m not against paying a reasonable price for services rendered, but, if presented book retail prices, I’ll probably defer to my own time and expertise for shipped crate motor and self installation--that is if I can get the warranty with a dealer inspection--good point.

I’m not inclined to risk $10,000 without a warranty. Maybe I’ll live dangerously and roll the dice. My experiences with dealers hasn’t been great--a bit like car dealerships---but I hope my experience with dealers will get better. I will keep readers posted.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:48 pm

I think the choice of dealer to buy a $10,000 (or more expensive) outboard engine is at least as important if not more important than the engine manufacturer or model. All engines will need some after sale support, and with modern outboard engines the amount of home-mechanic work possible is more limited than in the past due to the need for specialized tools and test gear.

Find a dealer who sells the brand you like, who has been selling that brand for a long time, who has done a lot of re-power sales and rigging, who has a staff of technicians with factory training, and who you like, trust, and will be pleased to do business with. Don't trade all of those criteria to save $500 on the purchase price.

There is more to a manufacturer's warranty than the paper it is written on. Dealers have reputations with the manufacturers they represent. Some dealers are well-known for their excellent service and warranty work. With some engine brands, the dealer's reimbursement for labor for warranty work varies according to several factors, including how many factory trained technicians are employed, and what level of training they have. A top-notch dealer with factory trained technicians will receive a higher rate of reimbursement for warranty work labor costs than other dealers with untrained staff and little reputation. Respected dealers will also be given more latitude in assessing what sort of engine problems are deemed to be covered under warranty, and those dealers usually will be able to sway the manufacturer to cover some repairs that might be a gray area of warranty coverage.

Any dealer can order an engine, leave it on the crate pallet, and let you drive away with it, but they might not be the best dealer if a problem occurs. That dealer might hate warranty work because of poor reimbursement rates, and would be unlikely to act in your interest if there is a dispute with the manufacturer about coverage.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:03 pm

Great advice, many thanks. Hoping to make a deal this week, as I found a local dealer I like. I'll keep readers posted. I'm also planning on buying a new Honda BF2.3 auxiliary engine. The Honda is air cooled and good for shallow water. Will start a separate topic on this as I'd like everyone's feedback on it. Thanks again, Mav

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby Maverick » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:48 am

After a long process of getting costs and assessing dealers, I got lucky and found a local (and hungry) small town dealer that made me a good and fair offer. I bought new Suzuki 90 from them with a six-year warranty, and I opted to have them install the engine, hydraulic steering, and turnkey. I should have the [1963 16-foot highly customized] re-powered boat back before next weekend. The dealer had to order the engine.

I shopped about ten dealers, both Evinrude and Suzuki. I liked this dealer due to over 50-years of being in business, their openly honest and no nonsense pricing, and generally their positive customer service attitude. They really wanted my business and really appreciated my Whaler.

I probably could have saved $1500 in labor by doing the engine installation myself, and that installation would have been successful, as I have many years of experience. However, my time is worth something, and to get a good and reasonable deal for the work required felt good.

I'll post images and performance info once I get the [1963 16-foot highly customized] re-powered boat on the water.
[Use the thread already started in PERFORMANCE. See below for the URL--jimh]

I really thank all the posters here for the great and helpful information. —Mav

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:16 am

MAV--thanks for the follow-up.

Most outboard engine dealers get a line of credit from the manufacturer on outboard engine orders. Since your dealer had to order the engine you bought, he really won't have any of his cash tied up in that order for probably 30-days. By that time you will already have given the dealer a check for the engine. In effect, the dealer didn't have to invest any of his own money in ordering the engine, which he had already sold to you. A smart dealer will be glad to do business like that.

Also, most outboard manufacturers have quotas or thresholds for dealers to sell a certain volume of product, usually based on the total horsepower of all engines sold. A customer that walks in and buys a 90-HP will add to the dealer's total product volume sales. The more the dealer sells, the more the manufacturer offers price reduction incentives to sell more engine. The dealer is really the engine manufacturer's customer, and the more product the dealer buys from the manufacturer, the more perks, incentives, and rebates the dealer will earn.

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Re: Engine Warranty Coverage If Self-installing New Engine

Postby jimh » Fri May 01, 2020 6:09 am

Advice about optimizing performance by proper engine mounting height and propeller selection has been separated from this discussion on engine warranty and moved to its own thread in the PERFORMANCE forum. See

Engine Mounting Height and Propeller for 1963 Custom 16-footer with SUZUKI 90
http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5403