My goal is to stay legal, so I'm looking for someone who might know a bit about the laws in FL. As this place becomes more insanely over populated, confrontations between divers and fishermen are occurring much more often. Both want to be at the same location, where the fish are.
Here we are very near the Gulf Stream and the current runs 3 to 4-knots, so fishermen will drop-in then drift over the areas with bottom structure where the fish are. Commercial recreational dive boats drop their divers in the same exact location, and they're not shy about dropping in directly in the path of the drifting fishing boats.
Assuming a fisherman is already drifting and fishing, then a dive boat pulls up near by and directly in the path of the fishing boat and starts dropping in divers, who has the right of way?
Note the fishing boat is drifting 3 to 4-knots and not under power, and the dive boat pulls up within one or two hundred yards: the two will meet within minutes.
For some back story; my son was fishing yesterday and this exact scenario happened to him. They were on a drift and approaching an artificial reef when a dive boat pulls up and starts dropping in divers. The dive boat was close enough to talk to them (no radio) and said hey we've got divers down please move. My son and his buddy took the high road and moved, but I'm not sure he was required to.
Fisherman and divers - right of way
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
The best way to handle disagreements on the water is to continue to take the high road regardless of legal rights. In effect, no one has the right to hurt someone when it is avoidable. Divers are often snagged by line anglers. Commercial operators can be high handed as they take the attitude that since you are merely on the water to have fun and they are on the water to make a living they always have a right to do pretty much as they like.
There are plenty of productive reefs with hungry fish to catch. Your son showed maturity and common sense. My advice would be for him to continue to display the attributes learned from his Father.
There are plenty of productive reefs with hungry fish to catch. Your son showed maturity and common sense. My advice would be for him to continue to display the attributes learned from his Father.
Butch
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
Given the various law enforcement entities in Florida, I would search the websites of the local agencies you see out on the water for clarification.
Primary questions include jurisdiction and applicable regulations, if any.
The Captain dropping them in your path is ambiguous unless he was right up on you when he disembarked the divers. I would think divers in the water is a greater threat so keep your distance. Commercial operators tend to be less forgiving in judgement calls in my experience.
Primary questions include jurisdiction and applicable regulations, if any.
The Captain dropping them in your path is ambiguous unless he was right up on you when he disembarked the divers. I would think divers in the water is a greater threat so keep your distance. Commercial operators tend to be less forgiving in judgement calls in my experience.
1992 Outrage 17
2019 E-TEC 90
2018 LoadRite 18280096VT
Member since 2003
2019 E-TEC 90
2018 LoadRite 18280096VT
Member since 2003
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
How far out from the coast of Florida did this incident take place? I believe any "Rules of the Road" that might apply would have to be from the "International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea" (Col-Regs) if beyond the line of demarcation shown on NOAA charts. For oceans, the Col-Regs apply as soon as you leave an inlet.
In the Col-Regs there is almost no provision that grants one vessel a absolute right-of-way over another. Certain vessels are obligated to keep out the way of others, but eventually every vessel has an obligation to maneuver to avoid collision. Here is a excerpt from RULE 18 which gives the hierarchy of vessels with privileged status:
You might think that (a)(iii) might give your son's vessel the status of "a vessel engaged in fishing." But we must look at the definition of "vessel engaged fishing." RULE 3 defines:
Thus a boat with recreational anglers with light tackle in the water and drifting is not "a vessel engaged in fishing."
If you read the definitions for "vessel not under command" or "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" you will also see that they do not apply to your son's boat.
My conclusion is both your son's boat and the dive boat are just "power-driven vessels" and should keep out of each other's way. The dive boat has no basis to demand your son's boat get of his way. If anything, the dive boat is an overtaking boat, and under RULE 13 must keep clear of the boat he is overtaking.
STATE LAW
I would be surprised if there is a state law in Florida which demands different conduct of vessels when they are in the ocean and where the Col-Regs apply. I believe state law would only become binding on vessel conduct in terms of collision avoidance when entering an inlet and leaving the ocean.
In the Col-Regs there is almost no provision that grants one vessel a absolute right-of-way over another. Certain vessels are obligated to keep out the way of others, but eventually every vessel has an obligation to maneuver to avoid collision. Here is a excerpt from RULE 18 which gives the hierarchy of vessels with privileged status:
- —INTERNATIONAL—
Steering and Sailing Rules
RULE 18
Responsibilities Between Vessels
Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel.
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible,
keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.
(d)
(i) Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel
restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the
case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained
by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.
(ii) A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular
caution having full regard to her special condition.
You might think that (a)(iii) might give your son's vessel the status of "a vessel engaged in fishing." But we must look at the definition of "vessel engaged fishing." RULE 3 defines:
- RULE 3
General Definitions
For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise
requires:...
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with
nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability,
but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing
apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.
Thus a boat with recreational anglers with light tackle in the water and drifting is not "a vessel engaged in fishing."
If you read the definitions for "vessel not under command" or "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" you will also see that they do not apply to your son's boat.
My conclusion is both your son's boat and the dive boat are just "power-driven vessels" and should keep out of each other's way. The dive boat has no basis to demand your son's boat get of his way. If anything, the dive boat is an overtaking boat, and under RULE 13 must keep clear of the boat he is overtaking.
- RULE 13
Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18, any vessel
overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being
overtaken.
STATE LAW
I would be surprised if there is a state law in Florida which demands different conduct of vessels when they are in the ocean and where the Col-Regs apply. I believe state law would only become binding on vessel conduct in terms of collision avoidance when entering an inlet and leaving the ocean.
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
The master of a commercial dive boat would need to hold a commercial license, which will require him to operate his boat in accordance with the Col-Regs. However, your son as a recreational boater is under the same obligation, even if he has no commercial license.
If there were any risk of collision, the Col-Regs REQUIRE your son to maneuver his boat to avoid collision.
Divers in the water do have a special status. But I can understand your son's aggravation with the conduct of the dive boat, overtaking your son's boat, and dropping divers into the water right in his path.
If there were any risk of collision, the Col-Regs REQUIRE your son to maneuver his boat to avoid collision.
Divers in the water do have a special status. But I can understand your son's aggravation with the conduct of the dive boat, overtaking your son's boat, and dropping divers into the water right in his path.
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
Thanks guys for the replies, very informative. Reading the replies, one thing came to mind. The fishing boat is drifting, the dive boat is constantly under power, going in circles looking for the divers. Sometimes great big circles of like 1/4 mile, but that's a different story... But if I understand correctly, both boats are still considered underway in this case.
I don't like confrontation and try to avoid it when possible. Unfortunately the population here has just exploded and sometimes confrontation is unavoidable, so I try to be educated for the situations where it happens.
I don't like confrontation and try to avoid it when possible. Unfortunately the population here has just exploded and sometimes confrontation is unavoidable, so I try to be educated for the situations where it happens.
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
Again, from the Col-Regs:
Just because you intentionally shut off the "machinery" that propels your vessel, your vessel does not suddenly become something other than a power-driven vessel. If the risk of collision exits, that vessel would be obligated to use its propulsion machinery to maneuver.
If a power-driven vessel is adrift because its propulsion machinery has failed, it has to signal that status: "vessel not under command." To be a "vessel not under command" is defined:
During daylight, a "vessel not under command" must display particular signals and lights:
There are several memory aids for the lights:
White over red, pilot ahead
Red over white, fishing at night
Red-over-red, the captain is dead
Red-white-red, doing the work I dread.
For daylight signals see the Col-Regs.
For example, a boat at anchor shows one white all-round light at night and one black ball during daylight.
The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
Just because you intentionally shut off the "machinery" that propels your vessel, your vessel does not suddenly become something other than a power-driven vessel. If the risk of collision exits, that vessel would be obligated to use its propulsion machinery to maneuver.
If a power-driven vessel is adrift because its propulsion machinery has failed, it has to signal that status: "vessel not under command." To be a "vessel not under command" is defined:
- (f) The term “vessel not under command” means a vessel which through
some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these
Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
During daylight, a "vessel not under command" must display particular signals and lights:
- RULE 27
Vessels Not Under Command or Restricted in Their
Ability to Maneuver
(a) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:
(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be
seen;
(ii) two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be
seen;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights
prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.
(b) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, except a vessel engaged
in mine clearance operations, shall exhibit:
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen.
The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light
shall be white;
(ii) three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The
highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a
diamond;
(iii) when making way through the water, a masthead light or lights,
sidelights and a sternlight, in addition to the lights prescribed in
subparagraph (i);
(iv) when at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in
subparagraphs (i) and (ii), the light, lights or shape prescribed in Rule
30.
There are several memory aids for the lights:
White over red, pilot ahead
Red over white, fishing at night
Red-over-red, the captain is dead
Red-white-red, doing the work I dread.
For daylight signals see the Col-Regs.
For example, a boat at anchor shows one white all-round light at night and one black ball during daylight.
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
I think that the rules are ambiguous enough that common sense is the rule of the day. In my experience both spearfishing and rod and reel. Once divers are in the water, nobody with a rod and reel is going to catch any fish on that reef anyway. So it was good judgement by your son to move on. I wouldn't solely blame the "population explosion" for Florida's screwed up fishing and diving problems. The seasons are too short for recreational fisherman. Intentionally, by the way as the fisherie boards consist of mostly commercial fisherman. Another reason is the rise in popularity and wealth that affords a lot more people to buy 20+ foot center console boats with 2,3, or 4 motors.
-
Tom Hemphill
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:04 pm
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
I can't speak to the legal questions, but I have a moral (and practical) sense as to who should be allowed to occupy a popular fishing spot. "First come, first served" should be the first determinate. And in the case of a tie, or if the first occupant stays an unreasonably long time, I think the commercial user should win in favor of the recreational user.
The sometimes tense conflict between commercial and recreational interests plays out in places like Gloucester, Mass., where commercial lobstermen are afraid that recreational SCUBA divers are stealing the catch from their traps. They are trying to earn a living in a tough, risky business, so I am willing to cut them some slack (and steer clear of them).
The sometimes tense conflict between commercial and recreational interests plays out in places like Gloucester, Mass., where commercial lobstermen are afraid that recreational SCUBA divers are stealing the catch from their traps. They are trying to earn a living in a tough, risky business, so I am willing to cut them some slack (and steer clear of them).
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
Personally if I were paying for a dive and the captain wanted me to drop in front of a drifting boat, I would not be happy as he is putting my life in danger. He probably should have waited for your son to drift past him and then dropped; there would not have been a conflict.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).
Re: Fisherman and divers - right of way
The most common rules-of-the-road situation that I encounter as the operator of a power-driven vessel is a crossing situation with another power-driven vessels. The rule is very clear and has no ambiguity: the vessel that sees the other vessel to his starboard should alter course and cross aft of that vessel. This occurs frequently, and when I am the stand on vessel about 90-percent of the time I end up having to alter course to avoid a collision because the other vessel has made no course change to keep clear.
This is really the simplest, most basic rule of boat operation. I learned this when I was 10-years-old. Apparently a huge majority of the operators of power-driven recreational boats don’t know this rule or just ignore it.
In many crossing situations I just alter course to avoid the other boat and let him cross in front of me—often resulting in have to cross a huge wake because the other boat was much bigger and was creating an enormous wake—because that other boat just stands on and makes no attempt to avoid collision, ignoring his obligation to alter course and pass astern of my boat as required by Rule 15.
- RULE 15
Crossing Situation
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.
This is really the simplest, most basic rule of boat operation. I learned this when I was 10-years-old. Apparently a huge majority of the operators of power-driven recreational boats don’t know this rule or just ignore it.
In many crossing situations I just alter course to avoid the other boat and let him cross in front of me—often resulting in have to cross a huge wake because the other boat was much bigger and was creating an enormous wake—because that other boat just stands on and makes no attempt to avoid collision, ignoring his obligation to alter course and pass astern of my boat as required by Rule 15.