Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

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Gotboostedvr6
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Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Gotboostedvr6 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:23 pm

I may re-power my 170 MONTAUK and may purchase a pair of right-hand 2000-hour 2010 E-TEC115-HP outboard engines. One will be mounted, one will live in my garage and provide parts when needed. They were used daily on a water taxi on a privately owned freshwater lake and spent 90-percent of their life around 2,500-RPM or less.

Cylinder PSI readings are:
120, 119, 122, 120.
127 124 126 124

What do you guys think?
Cost is very reasonable so keep that in mind.

[UPDATE: Editor's note: much later in the final post to this discussion it was revealed that the engines had 3,200-hours of operation, not 2,000-hours, the engine were used in saltwater, and there was evidence of corrosion. The engines were not purchased by the originator of this discussion. This thread has been closed--jimh]

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Phil T
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Phil T » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:52 pm

What has the maintenance schedule been?

The water taxi operators I know have a set schedule and are rigorous, given they operate 24-7-365. The sets of compression numbers are close together so that is a good, but it appears one engine has a lower set of numbers; does it have more hours?

If maintained, they are through [half] their lifespan with another 2,000-hours to go. If the price is right, why not?
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jimh
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:51 pm

The water taxi operators must figure these engines are now on the backside of the maintenance-cost and reliability curve, and they are taking them out of service and selling them at a low price.

Having one engine and a spare sounds like you are anticipating problems.

Without a figure for the purchase price, it is hard to say if there is value in the deal.

Now, that said, there is a certain school of thought that 2,000-hours of operation for a five-year or six-year-old engine is no big deal, and that any engine made by any manufacturer today can do this. I was not aware of this school of thought, but I was introduced to it in a prior discussion. See

E-TEC Longevity
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007364.html

Seahorse
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Seahorse » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:01 am

I would like to add a tid-bit to this operating hours discussion. Last year the Catalina Island harbor patrol changed out two E-TEC 150's, each with well over 6,000-hours running time with mostly original parts.

New E-TEC 150's with digital controls were installed on those two boats for re-power to replace the high-hour older E-TEC 150's.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:21 am

With 6,000-hours of running time, just think of the amount of savings in labor for oil changes. Even at 100-hour intervals, that would be 60 oil changes per engine, two engines, or 120-oil changes avoided by using an E-TEC.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:51 am

If you can get the [EMM] engine history printed it can provide insight on exactly how many hours the engines have been operated and at what RPM. It should also show what engines faults and alarms have appeared over the engines' history.
Butch

Gotboostedvr6
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Gotboostedvr6 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:23 pm

Thanks for sharing.

I'm slightly concerned with carbon deposits that might have built up over the years. Is it ok to do a de-carb on this model E-TEC?

Also have concerns about the exhaust valve. I've been told the early E-TEC valve can't be serviced, and a whole tear down is required for a fix.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:33 pm

The recommended fuel additive for the E-TEC is Evinrude 2+4 fuel conditioner. This can be used on an on-going basis to help preserve and treat fuel.

Evinrude also has two other products for fuel treatment:

--CARBON GUARD, and

--FUEL SYSTEM CLEANER.

My understanding is that FUEL SYSTEM CLEANER can be used with an E-TEC. Check the owner's manual for your Evinrude E-TEC to get advice about what fuel additives are recommended.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Acseatsri » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:30 am

Re the cost savings on [E-TEC compared to four-stroke-cycle outboard engine] oil changes: I think any savings on oil changes is washed out by the cost of the two-stroke-cycle-engine oil. In 6000 hours, even using the XD100 oil at approximately 80:1 ratio, you could figure using 75 gallons of $30-per-gallon oil.

I don't know what the labor is for an oil change, but with a drill-powered pump, I can change two gallons of oil in less than a half-hour without taking the boat out of the water. I figure an oil change at about $25-per-gallon for marine-rated FC-W oil.

The plus-side of these engines is they are post-2008 engines, which means that they have the major updates to the oiling system. On the 225-HP model, they added 12 additional oil lines to the block in 2008. This change probably would have prevented my 2006 motor from blowing up due to the loss of lubrication to a piston wrist pin. The replacement block on my old engine has these updates.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:56 am

There is no actual outlay of money or cost for labor that you do yourself. In order to realistically compare costs, you have to not assign the value of labor to be zero cost. If you hire out the oil change there is a considerably higher cost for the labor. There is also a cost for the boat not being available for those times when its engine is being serviced.

A resort that has a fleet of Boston Whaler 17-foot boats and has them powered with four-stroke-cycle engines has a full-time technician just performing oil changes on the engines. The engines run about 8-hours per day, and, since they run at low-speed, the recommendation for oil change at 50-hour intervals is being followed. So that means changing the engine oil on a weekly basis. It is one guy's full-time job just to change the oil. It is very simple to pull a 17-foot boat out of the water for the oil change. At this particular resort they had an ingeniously simple system to get their boats out of the water and onto the floating dock for service. It could be done in less than 30-seconds. Unfortunately, It is not simple or convenient to take a larger boat to a dealer for an oil change.

You can slice and dice the costs in many ways, but it is hard to come up with anything but a rationalization that changing an outboard engine's oil is something simple, easy, inexpensive, and fun to do. And so far the disposal costs are neglected. Also neglected is the cost of the tools, the protective clothing needed, the time to take the oil to some recycling center. Pumps that have to work with dirty contaminated oils need to be very well made. The $20-fits-on-a-drill-motor pump probably won't last very long.

Finally, the ultimate disposal of the oil is probably to be burned in industrial furnaces. I don't know where old oil filters go, probably into a hazardous waste disposal site. A lot of those costs are paid for by municipalities who offer recycling services to their residents. You pay for that in your taxes. I don't see any way that the E-TEC loses in this comparison.

Changes to E-TEC engines over various production years is nicely summarized and presented in an article in the REFERENCE section I wrote several years ago. See

E-TEC Model Year Changes
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ETEC_ModelYearChanges.html

I recall there was an oil distribution system change in [2011] for the 250-HP to 300-HP 3.4-liter models. The change mentioned (above) about adding more oil distribution lines may have been prior to 2008-model year.

Acseatsri
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Acseatsri » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:30 am

You also neglected the costs of the 300-hour or three-year service intervals. I paid $400 to 700 for this when I had my Etec 225. When you add up all these costs, the overall cost difference between two-cycle and four-cycle engines is probably a wash.

Last point, in my opinion there's something to be said about the longevity of mechanisms that operate in a bath of oil. After extensive operating time on both two-cycle and four-cycles engines, I believe all of the outboard motors made today are great and [which one to buy is] a matter of personal preference. The one big advantage of two-cycle engines is the lighter weight, as most older Boston Whaler boats are very sensitive to too much weight.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:15 pm

I did not mention the costs to perform the recommended service and maintenance because the cost to perform the recommend service and maintenance of outboard engines was not in the scope of my comments. My comment that seems to have provoked this discussion made no mention of recommended service and maintenance cost for the E-TEC. I just said:

...just think of the amount of savings in labor for oil changes.


I did not specify that the savings would be in dollars, or that if you computed the savings in dollars you would somehow come out ahead. I just said by operating an E-TEC you would avoid or "save" the labor of changing the oil. Again, I don't know anywho who goes boating in order to experience the joy of changing the oil on their engine.

When I was in a sailing club, we used to draw straws to see who would have to change the oil on the diesel engine. It was a miserable job, a messy job. Whomever got the short straw would usually end up with oil on his clothing, ruining them. Whenever I do an oil change, I wear specific clothing that I have dedicated to oil changes; it inevitable that you get some oil on your clothes. I have invested in very good and very specific tools to perform this work. It may sound a bit odd, but the reason I do my own oil changes is that I don't really trust oil-change places to do reliable work or to use premium oil and filters. And I don't want to pay dealer shop labor rates of over $90/hour for the work. But it is still a drudgery. I only do it with my vehicles. When I go boating I am looking for fun. I do NOT go boating to be able to do oil changes.

Now that you bring up the cost of the minimum manufacturer recommended maintenance, the costs of performing the recommended maintenance and service procedures for an E-TEC are lower than for four-stroke-cycle engines. You can find very detailed comparisons of these costs in the literature from Evinrude. The reason most people seem to have modest maintenance costs with the four-stroke-cycle outboard engines is they neglect to perform most of the recommended maintenance. They just ignore those tasks. If you similarly neglect the recommended maintenance procedures for the E-TEC, you will similarly save those costs.

I have had my E-TEC 225-HP engine since 2009. It has only had one "three-year or 300-hour" service appointment. I don't recall the exact cost, but it was less than $400. Much of the recommended service is to inspect various components; if an inspected component needs replacement, the cost of the service will be higher. I think I am still under 400-hours total running time.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:08 pm

Gotboostedvr6 wrote:I'm slightly concerned with carbon deposits that might have built up over the years.


If the E-TEC engines were set-up properly with a propeller load that followed the recommendations for engine speed range at full throttle, and assuming good fuel quality was available, and assuming a good low-ash lubricating oil was used, there should not be much build-up of carbon. The E-TEC runs with very low exhaust emissions. There is generally not too much soot in the exhaust. If the E-TEC ran with a lot of soot in the exhaust I doubt it would be able to pass the EPA emission testing.

The engine temperature affects the engine characteristics. At lower speed the engine temperature for an E-TEC will tend to run warm, probably 150-degrees. Engines that have cooling system problems and never reach normal operating temperature will tend to use a richer fuel:air mixture, producing more exhaust soot. Keeping the cooling system operating normally will suppress the tendency to have rich fuel:air mixtures.

If you run with XD100 oil it will reduce soot and help keep the engine clean.

If you suspect there is a carbon build-up, look for signs of excessive exhaust soot in the exhaust system. I would not employ some sort of massive shock treatment using products like SeaFoam with the E-TEC. I don't believe SeaFoam and similar products are prudent for a modern engine like the E-TEC. There is too much risk of harm to fuel injector and other fuel system components. If you must use a fuel additive, use one of the recommended ones.

Acseatsri
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Acseatsri » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Re the changes to the [E-TEC] engines in 2008- I learned that they added an additional 12 oil lines in 2008 from the technician servicing my old 2006 engine (in New Hampshire) and confirmed by a local technician in Connecticut that works on engines at my marina who used to work for a major local [E-TEC] dealer. This quirk or flaw in the design wasn't very well known or publicized. I would definitely stay away from pre-2008 [E-TEC] engines. My old engine threw a rod thru the block at 1100 hours due to a loss of lubrication to a piston wrist pin, a far cry from the claimed 4000 to 6000 hour engine life and a poor return on a $20,000 investment. An investigation was performed and no water was found in the oil, no abuse or lack of maintenance was cited. Less than 1-percent of the engine's operating hours were spent above 4,500-RPM. The replacement factory-rebuilt long block has the updated oil lines and came with a three-year warranty. A fresh block was $2,000 more and only came with a two-year warranty. Go figure.
I normally put on [over] 200-hours per year on my boat in 100-percent saltwater use, again a far cry from the 50 or so hours a year you run in fresh water.

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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby jimh » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:51 pm

I dispute your claim that 12 oil lines were added. This cannot be true. On my 2010 engine the oil supply lines number only 12 in total. How could 12 be added? That would mean there were ZERO to start with, which is clearly not possibly true.

The oil distribution system on my 2010 engine consists of the following:

--oil reservoir

--supply line from reservoir to an in-line oil filter

--oil filter outlet to oil injector assembly

--oil injector to primary oil manifold

--primary oil manifold has seven outlets; six outlets to the six individual cylinders; one to the rear manifold

--rear manifold has six outlets; one for each cylinder

Ignoring the hose that connects the primary manifold to the rear manifold, that is a total of 12 oil distribution hoses. Again, I cannot see how your claim that Evinrude secretly added 12-hoses in 2008 could be true. For your claim to be true, there would have been no oil distribution hoses prior to these 12 being added. That just could not be a realistic situation.

The oil system also includes a number of re-distribution hoses that re-circulate oil that collects in the power cylinders to the upper cylinders. These hoses have been used on Evinrude two-cycle engines for decades and are not anything unique to the E-TEC; they also could not have been added secretly in 2008.

The E-TEC engine has been continually updated and improved, and in 2011 on the 3.4-liter engines of 250 to 300-HP the oil distribution was further changed. I describe this in the E-TEC model year change article I mentioned earlier.

While it is entirely possible that some changes were made to the E-TEC oil distribution system prior to the 2008 model year, I cannot see how the oil system could have had 12-distributions line added, as I explain above.

There was also a change to the oil distribution system sometime prior to 2008. The earlier models had an oil supply line adding oil to the gasoline fuel pump so that there was a bit of pre-mixing going on. This was removed sometime prior to 2008.

I understand that you base your statements of comments made by technicians, but I think there has been some misunderstanding.

The E-TEC engine has had changes and improvements in its design in just about every model year change. There have been changes made to the E-TEC in subsequent years that are not embodied in my model-year-2010 engine. This is just the nature of manufacturing where the design undergoes a process of continual improvement. I don't see how one can point to this process as evidence of significant defects or failures by the manufacturer. The only way a consumer can always have the benefit of the very latest model of any product is to buy a new product every year or every model change. But the appearance of new models does not condemn the old models to a reputation as tragically flawed.

Gotboostedvr6
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Gotboostedvr6 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:40 pm

Prop used was 15 5/8 x 11 pitch. I should be picking them up on Friday.

Gotboostedvr6
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Gotboostedvr6 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Heading over tomorrow to buy em. When I get the hours/rpm break down I am expecting to see the bulk of usage between 1000 and 2000 rpm. The owner said at the end of each day on the way back to the dock he would goose it a bit in an effort to blow out any carbon buildup. Anyway the computer never lies.

How many hours above 4000 rpm do you think is acceptable where you would still expect to get another 500 hours of recreational usage before they would be considered "worn out" ?

Gotboostedvr6
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Re: Evaluating E-TEC Engine on basis of hours and PSI

Postby Gotboostedvr6 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:47 pm

Turns out they were salt motors. Anodes were completely gone. They were extremely corroded. I passed on them. Over 3200 hours