VERADO and Hydro-lock

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
albeej
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VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby albeej » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:18 pm

I bought a Boston Whaler 305 Conquest on May 2012. It was a one-year-old, left-over, never-used boat.

2012
I took delivery of the 305 Conquest with twin Mercury 300-HP VERADO FOURSTROKE engines in July 2012. [All VERADO FOURSTROKE engines have digital throttle and shift, or DTS, remote controls.] I had my first major problem after less than 16 hours of use. I took the boat out into the Townsend Inlet in three-foot waves. I hit a wave at about one-half to three-quarter speed with my hand on the throttle. I lost my balance and pulled the starboard engine throttle slightly past Neutral. The engine stalled and when I attempted to restart it; I heard a severe grinding noise. We used the port side engine to return to the dock and call the dealer’s service department. They picked up the boat the following day, tested the engine and discovered salt water in the head. Mercury reviewed the engine diagnostics and directed the dealer to rebuild the engine. I insisted that they replace it with a brand new motor based on the limited (16 hours) use. Mercury agreed and approximately three weeks later I had the boat back in the Water.

2013
The following year, 2013, I notice a yellow substance under the steering wheel. I cleaned it, and observed for several weeks--only using the boat on weekends. It ended up being a slow leak of power steering fluid. I notice that the steering was sluggish and called the dealer. The dealer sent out a technician who determined that I needed a new power steering cable that was not in stock. It took approximately three weeks to order and install the new power steering cable; the boat was out of the water. The dealer returned the boat and I took it out the following Sunday afternoon. The steering was not fixed; it felt like the old Manual steering on a car that didn’t have power steering. (I hope I’m not showing my age.) After losing almost a month of use, I decided to take out the boat for fishing, despite the steering malfunction. On my return into the bay, a wave runner cut across my bow and I had to quickly pull back on the throttle. Once again, the throttle control went slightly passed Neutral and the boat stalled. When I went to start them, both engines were dead.

I had the boat towed in and sent back to the dealer. The dealer technician ran a diagnostic test and sent the results to Mercury. Mercury determined it was operator error and nullified the warrantee. I spoke to the Mercury regional tech representative, and he determined it was hydro lock caused by the operator. They told me [repair] was my [responsibility] and I should submit a claim to my insurance company. I found it odd that they were quick to nullify my warranty and direct me to an insurance claim. It felt like this was not the first time they experienced this situation! Once again, they tried to imply that I pulled the throttle into a hard reverse. I could not believe that the DTS controls could be that sensitive and allow for a catastrophic head failure. Once again, the throttle slightly passed neutral. It was not jammed into reverse.

2014
We used the boat from May thru July without major incidents. I took the boat out on a Sunday afternoon in early August. I heard a loud thud while driving at three-quarter speed in the bay. The engine stalled and would not turn over. I returned to the dock (on a single engine) and left the dealer a voice mail. (The dealer is closed on Sunday.) The technician showed up the next day and visually inspected the engine. He saw a a hole in the power head. They pulled the boat out of the water, ran diagnostics, and Mercury determined it was an in-warranty quality-issue. The dealer (under the Mercury warranty) replaced and repaired the power head at no charge, and returned the boat to me approximately three weeks later.

2015
In the spring, I discussed trading in the Boston Whaler for a similar size Grady White that had Yamaha engines. He told me the trade-in value would be low because of the engine problems. I decided that I did not want to spend another $125,000 for the same-size boat. I retired in July of this year and used the Boston Whaler on a regular basis. As you can Imagine, I was very conservative driving the boat especiailly when slowing down.

At the end of July, my wife and I were out on a leisure cruise going about three-quarter speed. About 75-yards ahead of us on the Port side, I observed a boat that was towing a child on a tube. The boat was facing us, but idle in the water. As we continue to proceed forward, the Women in the boat started waving a towel in a panic. I pulled back on the throttle which slipped past neutral. The engine died and I could not restart. I had a feeling that it was the same problem: hydro lock.

If it is relevant, the person driving the boat left a second child in the water. Instead of pulling the boat up to the child in the water, the driver panicked and stopped the boat. Based on the [planing angle] of my boat, I could not see the child. In fact, we would not have come close to the child, but he or she was small enough that I could not see them.

I called the dealership and they sent a technician out on the following Monday. He determined that the engine had seized and the boat needed to be returned to the dealership for repairs. I drove to the dealership the next day and described what happened to the owner; he is not a mechanic.

The dealer decided to fix the engine without sending the diagnostics to Mercury. His decision was based on Mercury’s position two-years ago. In retrospect, he should have gone through the process, but it’s fixed know and I am faced with a $14,000 repair! I don’t know if my insurance company will pay a claim based on the dealer sending me a form letter, but I am still struggling with the out-of-warranty position.

Summary
I have owned four boats over the past 25-years and never had a problem with managing the controls. I have pulled skier and wake boards on other boats and never had a problem. Every other boat that I have owned or driven had a throttle that limited your ability to slide into reverse. I can’t believe that a Boston Whaler Mercury boat built to be “Unsinkable” would have a throttle that sensitive . One would assume that handling a boat in rough seas would be far more durable. I did, and that's why I bought Boston Whaler. Despite all this, I still like my boat, but do not trust the controls.

Could there be a [defect] with my specific configuration?

By the way, I have been informed (by an executive at Mercury) that on the FOURSTROKE engines they experience 28 to 30 Hydro Lock problems every year.

jimh
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jimh » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:31 pm

Why does shifting into Reverse cause the engine to hydro-lock? The engine should still be running, there should still be pressure on the exhaust passages. The boat should not be making sternway if the shift into reverse occurred while you were on plane at "three-quarter speed." I'd assume that would mean about 30-MPH. As long as the operator recognizes the shift is in reverse and moves to neutral before the boat starts to make sternway, I don't see how the hydrolock would occur.

On the other hand, the VERADO six-cylinder in-line engine block puts the bottom cylinder rather low relative to the water line. Perhaps this design is susceptible to getting water into that bottom cylinder. Do you know which cylinder was failing in the several instances of hydrolock? Was it by chance always the lowest cylinder on the in-line six-cylinder block?

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jollyrog305
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jollyrog305 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:40 pm

Have you tried adjusting the throttle [handle] friction so it doesn't slip between F-N-R?

I have luckily never experienced a hydro lock, but I have had water get into and ruin the lower pencil coil on one engine because of a bad seal--a known problem on the VERADO FOURSTROKE GEN-1--coupled with the design Jim pointed out--after backing down too quickly.
Roger
305 Boston Whaler Conquest / 1967 Boston Whaler Currituck/Nauset (Currset)

Seahorse
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby Seahorse » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:02 am

I have not seen this happen in a Verado but several times in Yamaha four-stroke-cycle outboards and the results are the same as well as the sequence of events that lead up to the situation.

The hydro-locked four-stroke-cycle outboard engine with bent or broken rods usually show a cam timing error code and often a MAP error code (if equipped). Both are caused by reverse rotation of the motor where the cam sensor sees the pulley going backwards and the intake manifold becomes pressurized after losing its normal vacuum state when the intake valve becomes the exhaust valve and blows air into the intake manifold.

Several things have to happen in sequence for the hydro-locking to occur. While the motor is running in forward and the boat is moving normally on plane, the throttle is suddenly yanked back to idle and the motor shifts into reverse rapidly and stalls. The engine quits from being rapidly pulled back to idle and at the same time a reverse rotation load is put to the motor because the boat's forward motion through the water is still pushing against the propeller (in a standard rotation motor, and when slammed into reverse gear, the force against the propeller from the water flow turns the stalled engine backwards. That opposite rotation of the motor triggers the cam sensor and possibly the MAP sensor, plus the exhaust valve now becomes an "intake valve" and pulls a vacuum in the exhaust housing which then sucks up water into the motor.

Like was explained, a certain series of events have to happen to cause the water ingestion and engine damage to a 4-stroke outboard. That's why it is not such a common occurrence but the outcome is well known in the outboard service industry and by the number of unfortunate boat owners.

albeej
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby albeej » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:15 am

Thanks for all your input!

Jefecinco
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:47 am

This is not a rare occurrence on the L6 Verado engines. As mentioned, the in-line six cylinder configuration places the lower cylinder much lower than in the L4 engines.

"Chopping" the throttles or very quickly shifting from forward to neutral or to reverse can have dire consequences when operating on plane. The sudden slowing or reversing of the boat creates a large stern wave which pushes the transom with a lot of weight. If the lower cylinder intake valve is open while the stern wave is exerting a lot of pressure on the exhaust aperture water can be ingested. When the engine is at idle speed exhaust pressure is at its minimum. The condition is exacerbated if the engine is mounted low on the transom as is often the case with newly delivered Boston Whaler boats.

I wonder if it would be more advisable to shift to reverse and keep the engine RPM higher to make an emergency stop rather than simply shifting to neutral. The higher RPM could possibly raise exhaust pressure sufficiently to prevent water from entering the exhaust system.

I believe there may be some hope that insurance would cover some of the cost of damage if it occurred due to an emergency move to avoid a hazard.

Years ago I owned a boat powered by a 260 Mercruiser Stern Drive. The exhaust system had a "flapper valve" or a one-way check valve which was to prevent water from entering the cylinders from a stern wave. It was a simple arrangement and seemed to be effective.
Butch

jimh
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jimh » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:27 am

I believe the mechanism by which the VERADO engine discussed here was damaged can be described as follows:

--the propeller turned the propeller shaft for forward propulsion;
--the shift was in REV; and
--the engine was stalled.

Therefore, because the propeller was turning for forward propulsion while the gearcase was set for reverse propulsion, and the engine was stalled, and the propeller was large enough, and the forward speed of the water created enough force on that large propeller, the engine crankshaft was made to rotate backwards. Because the engine crankshaft was rotating in the opposite direction from normal operation, the exhaust passage was converted to an intake passage. The vacuum or suction created drew water into the cylinder. Because water cannot be compressed, the next upward cycle of the piston caused damage.

It seems to me that there are some circumstances here that are somewhat unique. The VERADO engine, for its horsepower, is a rather small displacement engine. The displacement of the six-cylinder VERADO is only 2.6-liters. When the engine is operating, a supercharger forces a fuel-air charge into the cylinders that is greater than would occur with a normally-aspirated engine, creating a 300-HP engine. When the engine is stalled, however, the 2.6-liter engine has no supercharging boost. Mechanically it begins to operate like a normally aspirated 2.6-liter engine. In the Mercury FOURSTROKE line of normally aspirated engines, a 75 to 115-HP engine has a displacement of 2.1-liters. A 150-HP Mercury FOURSTROKE naturally aspirated engine has a displacement of 3.0-liters. Interpolating, a naturally aspirated Mercury FOURSTROKE of 2.6-liters would seem to have a horsepower potential of 135-HP.

The propeller size and pitch is proportional for a 300-HP engine. In the situation in which the hydro-lock occurred, we have an engine with roughly the displacement for a 135-HP engine connected to a propeller sized for a 300-HP engine. The engine is stalled, the boat is moving forward with a lot of boat speed. The large propeller and the flow of water on the propeller creates a large turning force, proportional an engine that can make 300-HP. Now we connect that force to an engine that can make about 135-HP and is stalled. It seems like this condition enhances the ability of the propeller to turn the engine crankshaft in the opposite direction.

An additional factor might be the supercharger. If the engine begins to turn backwards, its rotation is mechanically linked to the supercharger and would also turn the supercharger backwards. The rotation of the supercharger in the opposite direction would also create a suction from the supercharger on the enigne intake valves, helping to create a suction on the exhaust passages when the valve openings overlap. This could add to the tendency to suck in water via the exhaust valves.

As mentioned earlier, the in-line six-cylinder design places the lower cylinder at a location nearer to the water line than usual for most outboard engines. This may also enhance the possibility of water being drawn into the lower cylinder if reverse rotation occurs.

boatdryver
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby boatdryver » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:13 am

I thought the Seahorse post on November 13 was interesting, and that he, as an expert technician, had seen several Yamaha four-stroke-cycle outboard engines destroyed by hydro lock. He did not state the horsepower, number of cylinders, or displacement, but these would have been normally aspirated engines.

It appears that this is not a problem restricted to Verado engines, but instead an infrequent problem, related to operator technique during an emergency stop, and bad luck.

With my four-cylinder 175 HP Verado for nine years I'm just lucky that I operate in such a remote area that I've never had to execute an emergency stop. Now , having read this, I think know what not to do.

jimL

jimh
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jimh » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:17 am

I believe that the general feeling here is as follows: the best way to avoid hydro lock problems is to avoid situations in which they are most likely to occur, such as yanking the throttle-shift from FWD at on-plane speed to REV at nearly idle speed. That situation is likely to result in a stalled engine with the gear case set in REV, while the boat continues to make forward propulsion with sufficient momentum and speed to generate enough force on the propeller and propeller shaft to rotate the engine backwards.

flymo
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby flymo » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:47 am

It's one thing to say we now know what to avoid (dropping into reverse when slowing down suddenly) but if you read the tales of woe, you'll see that most folks didn't intend to find reverse, but did. It's not always easy to work a throttle lever precisely when things are bouncy.

I would not characterize this as operator error, but rather as a design flaw or design oversight. A throttle lever that mechanically locks in neutral until a secondary safety release is depressed is a fully effective mechanism for preventing inadvertent shifting into reverse. A strong detent at neutral is not quite as good, but better than nothing. Unfortunately, manufacturers seem to be going away from the former mechanism, although I understand that some are still offering an adjustable detent.

As mentioned in another thread, I occasionally drive a boat that has an aftermarket throttle lever that has no lockout and a weak, non-adjustable neutral detent - I could easily see unintentionally shifting into reverse in an emergency situation. I have seen the boat's owner inadvertently leave the boat in reverse when docking - thought it was in neutral, but it wasn't, creating some amount of drama as she left the wheel to go handle lines. Conversely, I regularly drive my 15, with the Yamaha 703 side mount shift lever and its mechanical lockout and release lever on the grip - old school tech that works great.

To albeej: what was the end result in your 2013 experience? Did your insurance company foot the bill? Also, have you tried adjusting the neutral detent to be firmer?

albeej
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby albeej » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:57 am

Thanks for the response. I have not filed an insurance claim, but did speak to Mercury. Apparently, the Hydro Lock concern is not uncommon on the Verado 6-Cylinder out boards. Mercury has between 28-30 a year. I am one of the unlucky few that have had the concern multiple times. He also suggested the adjustment on the detent which added a bit of frustration. Why didn't the Service team or Mercury recommend this after the first incident. "Cavaet Emptor".

I wanted to thank all of you for the feedback. Even those of you that stated the obvious- "don't pull the throttle back too aggressively"! I have tested several 30-33 ft boats with the Yamaha 300's and the control's have a much better tactile feel when coming off plane (at least for me).

Once again for all your collective insights and have a great Holiday!

alloyboy
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby alloyboy » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:28 pm

Consider yourself lucky that you got the motor replaced at no charge the first time that it happened. Some Verado owners have not been so fortunate. Yamaha usually will cover the repair one time only with the caution that if it happens a second time the customer is on his own.

This is a known and well understood concern. It can happen to any four stroke model, given a set of unfortunate circumstances coming together at an inopportune time.

Here is what the Verado owners manual says:

"When shifting, always stop at neutral position and allow the engine speed to return to idle."

Shifting from forward into reverse while the boat is traveling at speed is an operator error that can result in induced engine damage. It is not a warrantable defect. Unfortunately, we sometimes have to learn life's lessons the hard (and expensive) way.

flymo
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby flymo » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:57 am

alloyboy wrote:
Shifting from forward into reverse while the boat is traveling at speed is an operator error that can result in induced engine damage. It is not a warrantable defect. Unfortunately, we sometimes have to learn life's lessons the hard (and expensive) way.


Wow, that's some seriously old-school customer service thinking there - hope you're not in the business!

I've only received the "blame the customer" treatment once, and as a result I will never for the rest of my life buy a certain brand of car, and I don't hesitate to share my experience. I actually think the manufacturer did an OK job of stepping up here, although if they had thought to tell this customer to firm up the neutral detent the first time they might have avoided subsequent incidents. Maybe adjusting that detent should be part of the delivery checklist.

I continue to believe that a simple, mechanical "lock in neutral" design would resolve all of this, and a strong neutral detent would work almost as well. Do the designers really expect an operator to be able to find a vague neutral position when being bounced around in chop, or in an emergency situation? Maybe they've never driven a small boat.

Jefecinco
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:03 am

There is limited adjustment that can be made to the Mercury DTS control. Some learning is required, or at least that was the case for me. If a new user lacks boating experience or his most recent experience was with mechanical controls the learning period may be a bit longer. If the boaters previous experience was with some old stiff controls and using them has become second nature the DTS controls can make it seem like he is in another universe.

I agree that the facility that replaced the power head should have adjusted the controls to minimize the potential for a recurrence. It is just a routine part of any repair to eliminate any cause leading to a failure whenever possible. It is not always possible when the cause is operator error. Many operators don't want to know their improper operation resulted in damage. I don't fault the manufacturer for that omission.

I recommend anyone operating a boat with DTS spend some time practicing shifting on the first few outings. It won't save us from over reacting when faced with an emergency situation but it may well help.
Butch

alloyboy
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby alloyboy » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:11 pm

flymo wrote:
alloyboy wrote:
Shifting from forward into reverse while the boat is traveling at speed is an operator error that can result in induced engine damage. It is not a warrantable defect. Unfortunately, we sometimes have to learn life's lessons the hard (and expensive) way.


Wow, that's some seriously old-school customer service thinking there - hope you're not in the business!

I've only received the "blame the customer" treatment once, and as a result I will never for the rest of my life buy a certain brand of car, and I don't hesitate to share my experience. I actually think the manufacturer did an OK job of stepping up here, although if they had thought to tell this customer to firm up the neutral detent the first time they might have avoided subsequent incidents. Maybe adjusting that detent should be part of the delivery checklist.

I continue to believe that a simple, mechanical "lock in neutral" design would resolve all of this, and a strong neutral detent would work almost as well. Do the designers really expect an operator to be able to find a vague neutral position when being bounced around in chop, or in an emergency situation? Maybe they've never driven a small boat.


Nope, I am not in the business.

But if it happens, that the throttle gets shifted from forward to reverse that is, who is responsible? Not the boat maker's fault. Not the engine maker's fault. Not any of the passenger's fault. Whoever had the hand on the throttle might be at fault.

If blaming the customer for something that the customer did is not to be done, what is to be done?

Should an engine maker simply keep repairing the motor no matter how many times it keeps getting damaged due to the same "operator error"?

If a pilot retracts his landing gear just after lift off and the plane sinks back to the tarmac, is that blaming the customer when the FAA and NTSB determine it was pilot error that resulted in the damage to the air plane?

Where else should the blame be placed if not towards the customer for an action that the customer took and which resulted in damage?

Or. should the air plane maker have a system installed that won't let the gear come up until the air plane is x-feet off of the ground?

And should they have a system that will automatically lower the landing gear when the customer forgets to do it?

Is personal responsibility a thing of the past?

jimh
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jimh » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:18 pm

I don't really see much correlation between procedures involved in operation of commercial, passenger-carrying, federally-regulated, multi-hundred-million-dollar modern jet aircraft and recreational boat operation by private boat owners. You're reading too much into the often misused phrase "fly by wire." Reducing engine throttle in an emergency situation should not result in catastrophic engine damage. For this to happen over and over is very unusual.

JRP
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby JRP » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:18 am

For those who understand the hydrolock concern being discussed here better than I do: is there anything about the design or function of two-stroke-cycle outboard engines that makes them less vulnerable to this hydrolock problem than four-stroke-cycle engines?

Jefecinco
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:12 am

JRP,

That's a very interesting question and one I've never considered. I don't know the answer. I'll speculate that an absence of valves in many two stroke cycle engines could be a major factor. Another possibility is the double frequency of cylinder firing which may produce greater exhaust pressure. Two stroke engines with a more compacts design allowing more cylinders in less space, if this is the case, could result in the bottom cylinder being higher on the transom.

I look forward to reading some informed responses for the difference.
Butch

Seahorse
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby Seahorse » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:19 pm

A 2-stroke can run in either direction and the exhaust always expels no matter what the rotation.

alloyboy
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby alloyboy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:26 pm

jimh wrote:I don't really see much correlation between procedures involved in operation of commercial, passenger-carrying, federally-regulated, multi-hundred-million-dollar modern jet aircraft and recreational boat operation by private boat owners. You're reading too much into the often misused phrase "fly by wire." Reducing engine throttle in an emergency situation should not result in catastrophic engine damage. For this to happen over and over is very unusual.


Operator error is operator error. My example might have been about a recreational private pilot. He simply retracted his gear too soon. Some forget to put their gear down. Some recreational pilots flying twin engine airplanes have put their propellers into reverse thrust, by accident of course, when in flight. The consequences are usually disastrous and can be fatal.

Some people step on their gas pedal when they mean to apply the brakes. Or their foot slips off the brake pedal. Some boat operators inadvertently move their throttle handle(s) inappropriately. An accident is an accident. Moving an outboard motor throttle handle from forward into reverse while the boat is moving forward is simply an accident. It was not meant to happen. Unfortunately, on more than one occasion when it happened the engine can was damaged. It is not limited to a drive by wire motor. It is prevalent in the version of the Yamaha F250 which uses mechanical controls.

busterlueck
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby busterlueck » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:49 pm

[I have] been boating for [more than] 40-years, and I just learned [there is] water in my Verado 250. Only seven months over warranty with less than 300 hours on it--very disappointing. My last outboard engine was a Yamaha 225. I put 750-hard-hours on that engine and never had a problem.

jimh
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Re: VERADO and Hydro-lock

Postby jimh » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:34 pm

I don't understand what is meant by "water in my Verado." It is quite common for there to be water in outboard engines in the cooling passages. You will have to explain further what has occurred with your engine in order for readers to understand your complaint.