Stabil 360 Marine

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
Buoy
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Stabil 360 Marine

Postby Buoy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:06 pm

Hi all. I had my 1995 Yamaha 40-HP enigne's carburetors cleaned by a shop over the winter. I just launched the boat last week. I learned that the same symptoms of dirty carburetors persists.

I called the shop and they suggested that the carburetors became dirty again because I did not winterize it. I explained that I used Stabil 360 Marine. The shop responded that Stabil doesn't prevent Ethanol damage from gas sitting six months.

It says directly on the Stabil bottle "Stabilizes fuel for up to 12 months."

Who is correct, Stabil or the shop?

jimh
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby jimh » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:07 am

Fuel stabilizers don't stop evaporation.

Buoy
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Buoy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:07 am

OK but will ethanol deposits build up within six months time if the manufacturer's recommended amount of treatment was added to the gas?

Jefecinco
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Jefecinco » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:27 am

I don't use ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in our boats or any of our small engine powered equipment such as a generator or lawn mowers. I do faithfully use Marine Stabil and have had no fuel related problems for as long as I can remember. Some of our small engines are very small two stroke cycle engines. We store a lot of gasoline in plastic containers in our shed in preparation for hurricane season and we treat this fuel at the time we buy it. Some of it may well be older than a year by the time it is used but we only treat it once.

The generator has been idle for as long as a year before I remember to test run it for the hurricane season with, so far, no ill effects.

I realize this information is of no value to Bouy but perhaps it will be useful to others who read the thread.

P.S. I'm not sure I understand why ethanol causes deposits. Alcohol in bottles seem to evaporate without leaving deposits. Perhaps when the alcohol in float chambers evaporates the remaining gasoline evaporates more quickly as the chamber is no longer full and it is the evaporated gasoline leaving the deposits? If so, the Stabil may be useful in ethanol fuel.
Butch

jimh
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby jimh » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:55 am

Buoy wrote:OK but will ethanol deposits build up within six months time if the manufacturer's recommended amount of treatment was added to the gas?


What are "ethanol deposits"?

Ethanol is alcohol. Leave an open jar of alcohol and come back in six months. I doubt there will be a residue.

The problem with your small outboard engine with carburetors is probably gummy gasoline and oil residue left after evaporation. The carburetor jets are small on a small engine and more prone to being clogged.

The recommended procedure to prepare for storage may include draining all fuel from the carburetors.

Ridge Runner
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Ridge Runner » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:44 pm

I 100% agree with Jim. I have had Yamaha 40hp, 70hp and 90hp two cycle carbureted motors - no matter what fuel stabilizers I tried I also had the carburetors "gum" up with longer term storage - as Jim mentions evaporation is the culprit. There should be a screw on each carburetor bowl just drain the bowls before you place the motors in storage. BTW - ethanol is a pretty good solvent and in theory should help with keeping the carburetor jets clean - as long as you do not have any problems with sludge in the fuel tank or deterioration in the fuel lines.
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Buoy
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Buoy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:16 pm

Isn't Ethanol responsible for the gummy substance that builds up in fuel systems? When Stabil prints "Prevents Ethanol Damage" on the label, what ethanol damage are they referring to?

jimh
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby jimh » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:56 am

Buoy wrote:Isn't Ethanol responsible for the gummy substance that builds up in fuel systems?


The most likely problems that may occur with ethanol-gasoline blended fuels are:

--the ethanol will act as a solvent and dissolve rubber components of the fuel system which are intolerant of ethanol, such as the liner of some fuel hoses that have a gray metallic outer jacket, the fuel pumps of outboard engines--both old and new--and any sludge or residue in fuel tanks that was formerly impervious to pure gasoline; I don't believe ethanol spontaneously generates its own residue; it's just a strong solvent for some materials;

--ethanol allows a higher percentage of water to remain in solution with the ethanol-gasoline fuel, but, when saturation is reached and the water precipitates out of the fuel, the ethanol goes with the water, leaving behind gasoline without sufficient octane; ethanol was the octane booster for the gasoline. The ethanol-water solution is also corrosive.

Exactly how or what a particular brand or trademarked fuel additive does or how it works to combat harm to ethanol-gasoline fuels is unknown to me.

To care for my outboard engine and its fuel, I just follow the advice of the engine manufacturer and use the fuel additives they recommend. I don't conduct my own fuel chemistry experiments.

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Todd
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Todd » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:01 am

Hi all. I had a Mercury 15-HP two-stroke-power-cycle outboard on my 10-feet Zodiac tender. After seen years of trouble free use, including having the engine submerged in water for 45 minutes and after which drying out the cylinders and plugs the motor started on the first pull, I stopped using the ethanol-free gasoline from the fuel dock and began getting ethanol-added gasoline from the Shell station that was more convenient. What a mistake.

The first season was okay; the second season the engine was hard to start and eventually quit all together. With a $250 carburetor rebuild and all the rubber fuel components replaced, I learned my lesson. The Mercury mechanic who worked on the motor said his business skyrocketed after the introduction of ethanol, and, if people ask his advice, not a drop of it would be used again in an older outboard application.

Last week I filled the 45-gallon tank on my 2003 Dauntless 160; it has a Mercury 115 FOURSTROKE. I hauled the boat 20-minutes out of my way to get ethanol-free gasoline--price was the same as with ethanol, oddly. It's not always easy to find it, but I won't take the chance again with ethanol-added gasoline for my boat.

Todd

Jefecinco
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Jefecinco » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:25 pm

Bouy,

Contact Stabil and ask them what ethanol damage they are referring to.
Butch

jimh
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby jimh » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:28 pm

Todd wrote:Hi all. I had a Mercury 15-HP two-stroke-power-cycle outboard ...


Todd, I enjoyed reading your narrative, but I don't understand what it has to do with STABIL 360.

You seem to be describing exactly the problems I mentioned are most often cited as a result of use of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels with older outboard engines. There is no surprise in what occurred. Ethanol-gasoline fuel is a different sort of solvent than pure gasoline, and if the rubber components of the fuel system are not rated for use with ethanol-gasoline fuel, the outcome will be just as you experienced. But ethanol-gasoline blended fuels are used daily by millions of modern automobiles, and there really are no systematic problems caused by them. I have used many gallons of ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in my boat fuel tank in the last ten years, and never had any problems.

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Todd
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Todd » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:29 am

Sorry Jim, my comments were off the STABIL 360 topic (which I have always found a good product for long term storage). The comments were purely an ethanol experience rant. I need to stay on focus!!!

Mambo Minnow
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby Mambo Minnow » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:01 am

When I know the two-stroke-power-cycle carburetor engine won't be used for an extended time, I pull the fuel plug at the engine (while flushing on the muffs) and let the fuel in carburetors burn off. I also use Seafoam in the tank when I re-start with fresh tank of fuel

porthole
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby porthole » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:41 am

jimh wrote:I have used many gallons of ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in my boat fuel tank in the last ten years, and never had any problems.



I would venture to guess that your fuel system is 100% compatible with ethanol laced fuel then.
Perhaps you are diligent as well with keeping the tank topped off year round to minimize water being introduced into the fuel tank.

You are lucky.

My own personal experience as well as 20 plus years with the local TowBoatUS company suggest your experience is not the norm.

When ethanol was introduced the recreational industry was far from being ready to adapt, and as far as that goes, is still not ready for concentrations higher then 10%.
BoatUS has been a staunch supporter of reducing or eliminating ethanol fuel in the marine environment.
They have published a ton of information on the fuel and it's consequences to the end user.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z6IoogVdRQ

The small engine industry has suffered as well, your lawnmowers, weed wackers, generators etc.

E-15 should not be used with any gasoline engine not specifically designed to use it, which is mostly 2001 and newer automobiles.
The use of E-15 is not approved and is a violation of federal law for use in any product not mandated for it's use by law.
Although finding the exact wording of the law is not that easy.

July 25, 2011 Federal Register

"Phase separation" is a real concern with ethanol fuel.

"A Department of Energy study several years ago found that E15 caused hotter operating temperatures in small engines, erratic starting and engine part failure. But, the study also found that even E10 damages small engines. Ethanol settles out of gasoline, attracts moisture and, in sufficient quantities, corrodes engine parts."

jimh wrote:But ethanol-gasoline blended fuels are used daily by millions of modern automobiles, and there really are no systematic problems caused by them.



1) Since 2001 automobiles have been built to work with E-10
2) The average automobile user is not storing gasoline in their tank for 6 month to a year or more. Used daily, the main downside to E-10 or E-15 is reduced fuel economy.

To the OP.
I might be lucky, but I use a fuel stabilizer with ethanol stabilizer with all my non automobile equipment. I think I have had good luck with exception of my Onan 5500 RV carbureted generator.

Every gallon of gasoline i purchase whether it goes in the boat, the RV's onboard fuel tank or gasoline jugs gets treated.


Sta-bil's FAQ page
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

jimh
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Re: Does Stabil 360 Marine Stabilize Fuel for up to 12 months?

Postby jimh » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:23 pm

Recently in the state of Michigan, as I understand it, there was some legislative or regulatory action taken to require gasoline fuel distributors to make available non-ethanol gasoline fuel at the wholesale distribution level so that marine fuel docks could be able to offer non-ethanol fuel to their boating customers. The result is that in Michigan it is quite common now, that is, in the past two or three years, to come to a marine fuel dock and find that the gasoline fuel available there is ethanol-free gasoline.

The grade is called REC-90 or Recreational 90 Octane Premium. At retail gasoline stations on the highway in areas adjacent to boat launch ramps that have high numbers of boats trailered in to launch, I have also seen an increase in the availability of non-ethanol gasoline; at those stations it is sold under the branding of No-Ethanol Premium 89 Octane. I do tend to use REC-90 or No-Ethanol 89 in the boat fuel tank when preparing for winter storage, now that is easily available to me.

But for many years it was just about impossible to find no-Ethanol gasoline in Michigan. Whacky then-governor Jennifer Granholm even enacted regulations to remove all labeling of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels from the pump--against the advice of the bureaucrats that ran the department responsible for fuel distribution and labeling--so consumers in Michigan could not know what they were buying and putting in their fuel tanks. (Granholm was term-limited, moved to the left coast, went on to a very brief television career as a liberal talk show host on a show no one watched, and has since vanished into obscurity.) We've been putting ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in our boats and automobiles for decades, and I ran plenty of it through my boat fuel tank, hoses, and engines.

REC-90 gasoline is sold by Marathon, which is a midwest fuel company. Their headquarters are in Findley, Ohio. They publish information about REC-90 fuel and what's in it.