15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
Jefecinco
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Location: Gulf Shores, AL

Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:30 am

We have the standard Uflex hydraulic steering on our 135HP Verado powered 190 Montauk. We have enjoyed the steering system for about seven years. I've had to replace a seal in the cylinder but otherwise have had no problems.

Our only complaint is we have not been able to establish a "king post" or a single spoke that can always be used as the dead ahead steering wheel position when centered. With cable steering I usually wrap some cord around the wheel at the king post so I can tell when the engine is perfectly centered by feel. Around the launch ramp, docks and other tight maneuvering situations I feel far more secure knowing where the engine is pointing without having to look behind. If you know of a way to establish a king post with hydraulic steering please post it.
Butch

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:01 pm

Jefecinco wrote:We have the standard Uflex hydraulic steering on our 135HP Verado powered 190 Montauk. We have enjoyed the steering system for about seven years. I've had to replace a seal in the cylinder but otherwise have had no problems.

Our only complaint is we have not been able to establish a "king post" or a single spoke that can always be used as the dead ahead steering wheel position when centered. With cable steering I usually wrap some cord around the wheel at the king post so I can tell when the engine is perfectly centered by feel. Around the launch ramp, docks and other tight maneuvering situations I feel far more secure knowing where the engine is pointing without having to look behind. If you know of a way to establish a king post with hydraulic steering please post it.


Might be a good subject to break out to a separate thread, but before that's done I will comment on what could be a factor (or two) with your system.

Hydraulic systems are very finicky to remove air bubbles and purging them all out is not an easy task. The biggest concern is the helm is above the cylinder and you are trying to push the air down to be bled out the cylinder and the bubbles what to float up to the helm. I'd suggest having someone power bleed the system. The other concern could be sticky bypass valves from contamination and those are easy to remove and clean, but requires a purge.

I'm not sure you can have a perfect hydraulic system where TDC of the wheel remains the same. The bypass valves can throw off the wheel center if the wheel is cranked beyond the systems limited travel and this could also impact the wheel TDC position.

D-

Jefecinco
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Jefecinco » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:47 am

DT,

Thank you. I went to considerable trouble to refill and bleed the system when I replaced the cylinder seal. I went through the process three times before satisfying myself that the system was air free. I was working alone using plastic bottles taped to the inner transom with clear plastic hoses running from the bleeder valves into hydraulic fluid. I also had tubing running from the fill port on the console top to a nipple on an inverted fluid supply bottle taped to the windshield upper railing.

The next time I have the Verado serviced I'll have the power bleeding done. When working alone it's easy to miss a few bubbles especially when it's hot and sweat is running into your eyes.
Butch

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Fri May 31, 2019 10:01 pm

Took the boat for a ride last week and the dead spot in the cable steering drove me nuts and motivated me to start installing the Baystar system.


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Fig. 1. Pulled the console and associated wiring and now able to clean up a few things I decided to change.


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Fig. 2. Old below and new Baystar cylinder installed, no plumbing yet.

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Fig. 3. I used a backmount kit to reduce steering wheel protrusion since the helm pump extends out a good bit.


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Fig. 4. Once installed it is the same fit as the cable system it replaces.

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Fig. 5. View of the helm. Still need to mount console and tidy up a few things.

wiringUnderConsole.png
Fig. 6. View of helm rotated to normal orientation.
wiringUnderConsole.png (74.54 KiB) Viewed 28059 times


I need to figure out if I can run the hoses in the rigging tube, or if they are too stiff and need to be run another way.

D-

Guitarfish
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Guitarfish » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:37 am

Your photo work log has resolved a few problems I've run into during my Menemsha 'clean up'. Now, conveniently for myself, you are addressing my latest thoughts involving hydraulic steering. So thank you for that.

After an incredible amount of labor spent on my boat it looks about 10% as nice as yours. I have a cheapy table saw that has a fence with a mind of its own, and almost no wood working ability personally. I rebuilt my new console and will be pleased if it is 'clean' looking when complete. I have mastered the lumpy, runny finish look completely. It does have the wet look at least.

At this point I am a few weeks away from turning to the engine repaint and trim addition. I have done a polish and clean of the interior only as I want to fish out of the boat without worry.

My compliments on your skills. I am mildly envious.

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:11 pm

Thanks for the kind words Guitarfish.

Steering is installed and took it for a ride today and this was a very worthwhile upgrade. The dead spot in the steering is gone and there is zero torque steer in the wheel with a noticeable reduction in steering input. Very pleased with the results.

Steering wheel with the recessed mount kit is the same as the cable teleflex.
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I ran the 2 hydraulic lines on the inside where as the cable steering ran on the outside.
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The hydraulic lines run through the rigging tube, so there is only one line (the rigging tube) that carries everything to the motor.
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The lines in the kit are rigid and cut to length, the unfortunate part is they are not as flexible to make tight bends, so after covering in split loom the engine side of the rigging looks like an octopus, but it's rigged and protected from the UV.
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I'm done for now with this boat and will enjoy as the dingy to our larger boat and also serving as a trailer queen to trailer and explore other areas.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:14 pm

My son was moving the lawnmower in the garage and bumped the trailer light and cracked the lens. There's also been a concern of mine that when trailering the lights are very low and not within direct sight of following cars, so I decided that I'd install guide-ons and LED pole lights.

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I cut the poles so they are not too high and launched today and they stay plenty far out of the water. I did not use the mounting system they came with a drilled them directly into the trailer and used 3/8 stainless screws and they are solid. I also coated all mating surfaces with grease and sealed all connectors in silicon.

Another thing I wanted was a radio, but didn't want to install a system, so I grabbed a JBL bluetooth speaker that is waterproof and syncs to my phone and has amazing sound. There is a rubber foot on the bottom and it stays put on the console, but for big waves, I remove and store.

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D-

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Matching Cornhole Boards

Postby dtmackey » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:33 pm

Since the Whaler rehab, I've had the desire to build a set of cornhole boards with the same look at the Whaler interior. About 2 months ago, my wife came home from a fundraiser planning meeting for the private school my daughter attends and she informed me that she volunteered me to build a set to donate.

It didn't take me long to purchase the wood and start the lamination process and I made 2 sets, 1 to donate to the school and another for myself.

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Pretty close to the Whaler interior.

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CactusEd
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby CactusEd » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:40 am

Absolutely stellar planning and workmanship. I just brought home a Sport 15, and this thread is inspirational. Thanks.
1980 Sport 15 side console - 2016 Mercury 60 ELPT

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:13 pm

CactusEd wrote:Absolutely stellar planning and workmanship. I just brought home a Sport 15, and this thread is inspirational. Thanks.


Thank you for the kind words. Over the summer my son shot some drone vid of the restoration pics and running around a local river. I though I put this in the restoration thread, but couldn't find it, so here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hELY0-aRwU

Boat runs 42.5 - 43mph on GPS. I could raise the motor one more notch and probably go back to a 19' pitch prop for a little more, but this is a good all around setup.

I've recently acquired a Yamaha VMAX 150 20" motor and also a 200 Yamaha outboard and have been temped to build a fun motor to trial on the Whaler. for a day in the flat back bays to see how it'd run. More to follow on that in the spring since I'm in winter mode now.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:10 am

After a crazy year from health reasons and Covid restictions, Santa showed up a little early with a new repower gift for the Whaler,

Brand new Yamaha F70.

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Hydraulic jackplate, TH Marine Microjacker.

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I'll install sometime in April/May timeframe and also go with a new control box and square Command Link guage that displays tach, oil pressure, temp and water pressure, but I beleive I need to run the NEMA buss that Yamaha offers to get the additional functionality from the guage. The prop from my previous Yamaha should be the correct pitch.

D-

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Phil T
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Phil T » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:58 am

When you have a chance can you explain the selection of the jackplate.

Why add one? Pros, cons?
Which models did you investigate?
Why this brand/model?
What will you do to offset the added stern weight?

Thanks Dave.
1992 Outrage 17
2019 E-TEC 90
2018 LoadRite 18280096VT
Member since 2003

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:07 pm

Phil T wrote:When you have a chance can you explain the selection of the jackplate.

Why add one? Pros, cons?
Which models did you investigate?
Why this brand/model?
What will you do to offset the added stern weight?

Thanks Dave.


Hi Phil,

Great questions and I thought about this quite a bit before buying a jack plate, since my old Yamaha was a perfect running engine, but I like to try new things. To answer your questions:

1. Why add one? Anytime you can lift the motor higher you gain efficiency by reduced drag. The problem is when setting the motor to high on some transoms is you can lose the prop bite when the motor is too high or in corners, but in straitline running it's ideal, so it pushed me toward a jackplate to get the best of both worlds. A 15' Whaler with the 70 Yami 4S and jackplate runs 47mph and I beleive you were part of those conversations over on EBW with Rafe and others sharing pics. The 15 hull even with the motor mounted on the top hole can still have the motor raised an ADDITIONAL 3- 4" when on plane, which can allow you to run in skinny waters. At idle you can also jack the motor pretty high, again adding shallow water use. The motor can be jacked an additional 5" above the normal use of the 3rd mounting hole. I'm also running hydraulic steering and all rigging through a rigging tide, so there's no concern of cable stretch and restraint needed.

2. Which models did you investigate? The two biggest players seem to be CMC and TH Marine. The CMC hydraulic brackets are heavier and seem to target high horsepower applications, so this ruled CMC out pretty quick. TH Marine makes a perfect jackplate called the Microjacker and it weighs 23 lbs, about the same as 3.6 gallons of gas.

3. Why this brand/model? Reputation, weight, something to play with.

3. What will you do to offset the added stern weight? I have about 100# of lead that has been kicking around for years. Based on the experience of others, I doubt I will need to use the lead for the forward compartment, but I have that option. A small amount of weight that far forward would make bigger differece. The offset is 4" which is minimal, the added weight of the Yami 4S is about 20", so I'm still far lighter than running an Etec 75.

Here are some pics of 15' Whaler running jackplates and you can see how high they run.

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I'm excited to start rigging the new motor and jackplate.

D-

TFrere
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Location: Lafayette, LA

Re: Affect of Engine Mounting Height on Stability

Postby TFrere » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:55 pm

Q1: Do you have to lower the engine in turns?

Q2: Have you done any modifications to the hull to make it more stable?

Q3: What propeller are you running?

I also own a 1985 SPORT 15; it has a 2014 Yamaha F70. Boat speed at full throttle is 43-MPH. The engine is two-holes-up. The propeller is a PowerTech SCD3 17-pitch. The boat becomes a bit squirrelly above 40-MPH.
1985 15’ Sport with Yamaha F70

dtmackey
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Re: Affect of Engine Mounting Height on Stability

Postby dtmackey » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:07 am

TFrere wrote:Q1: Do you have to lower the engine in turns?

In wide sweeping turns it should be fine, but in tighter turns you would drop the motor a little bit.

TFrere wrote:Q2: Have you done any modifications to the hull to make it more stable?

My boat is currently stable and ran 42.5mph with the Yamaha 2 stroke 70. Based on input from others with the same boat and motor combo I do not expect any concerns with stability.

TFrere wrote:Q3: What propeller are you running?

Purchased a Powertech SCD3 19" based on the input from others with the same boat/motor combo

I also own a 1985 SPORT 15; it has a 2014 Yamaha F70. Boat speed at full throttle is 43-MPH. The engine is two-holes-up. The propeller is a PowerTech SCD3 17-pitch. The boat becomes a bit squirrelly above 40-MPH.[/quote]

Until I get the new engine motor installed, I'm sharing input from three other people with the same boat and motor combination. Right now things are on hold because I found another 15-footer, a center console which is the one I've desired for years had been but unable to find. If all goes well, it should follow me home tomorrow and the F70 will be mounted on that hull and my current 15-footer will be for sale.

D-

biggiefl
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby biggiefl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:06 am

Don't fool yourself. I had a 15' center console with bottom paint and a 70hp Johnson jacked so high you could see the trim pump over the transom. I ran a custom OMC SST 20" prop and would do 48-49 WOT per GPS. She was squirrely as all get out. I would have to pull the throttle back and nail it to get out of the chine walk. It would shoot a 6' high rooster tail that probably went 40-50' behind the boat. It was sick to say the least. It is NOT going to handle like it does at 42.5mph. Wear the safety lanyard!
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Thu May 06, 2021 10:57 am

Install of the motor and jackplate is in process.

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Tempory mounting until new hardware shows up. I have 5" of additional lift and can gain amount 1.5" from mounting bolts, but don't feel that will be necessary.
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Passivating stainless hardware for additional corrosion resistance - soaking in phosphoric acid.
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Painted backing plate with red Awlgrip and then clearcoated to add some accent.
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I wasn't keen on having the wiring and solenoids for the jackplate in the boat where they could possibly get wet, so I mounted them under the cowl. The only wires that exit the motor are 3 signal wires to the helm that will run in the rigging tube. Power is tapped from under the cowl and the sire to the jackplate will exit in the same grommet as the engine power trim wiring.
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Included a service lift switch for when maintanance is performed, this way I can lift the motor without going to the helm. This is also under the cowl.
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I hope to wrap things up this week since I ran into a slowdown and my steering ram would not fit the new motor, so I ordered a new top plate and disassembled the ram to install. It was less expesive that a new ram ($85 vs $335).
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D-

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:37 am

It's been a while since I update this thread on the F70 and jackplate install.

I am very impressed with the the new Yamaha F70 and also the jackplate. The motor is so quiet you can't even hear it at idle and the pee stream is the only noise it makes. As you power up, the wind and water noise are louder than the motor, so it provides a very quiet ride. While I have not measure economy, it the 4.8 hours of runtime the gas lever hasn't gone down much at all and the prevuous 2 stroke Yamaha 70 would have consumed more fuel.

The jackplate is another upgrade that I wasn't sure exactly what to expect, other than running the motor higher and maybe some additional top end speed, but the handling of the boat and I raise it from the standard height where the motor would be bolted to the transom, so a max height of 6" about the transom is noticiable. The boat feels lighter and steering feels better. I can run full lift of 6" in flat, 1- 2' chop and slow ocean rollers of 6' with 1 to 3 people with zero prop ventilation or adverse handling. I stil need to get wide open throttle runs now that breakin of the F70 is to the point where wide open throttle can be attained. But speeds from idle to 30mph there's no concern, but I may have to drop the motor to 5" above the transom at speeds over 35mph. As the motor is mounted on the jackplate, there's still another 1.5" of additional height that could be achieved if I mounted the motor up another 2 holes on the backet, but I have no plans for that and feel this is as high as I would ever need.

Mounted the jackplate control on the throttle for one handed operation of the motor.
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Setback is 4" with the jackplate.
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Max lift is +6" over transom lip.
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For now I'm running a 17" pitch prop, but will bump up as I expect to hit the rev limiter at 6300rpm with this prop.

D-

TFrere
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby TFrere » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:31 am

The boat under discussion is a very nice setup. Thanks for sharing.

PERFORMANCE OF DIFFERENT BOAT

My 1985 SPORT 15 with Yamaha F70 produces 9.6-MPG if I keep engine speeds below 4,800-RPM. The propeller is a PowerTech SCD-3, 17-pitch. The engine mounting height is two-holes-up from lowest position.
1985 15’ Sport with Yamaha F70

Don SSDD
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Don SSDD » Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:51 am

Mr. MacKey, a very professional install, very very nice work.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
Nova Scotia

mcamuso
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby mcamuso » Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:08 am

Did you end up getting the 15’ Center Console?

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:43 am

mcamuso wrote:Did you end up getting the 15’ Center Console?


I did not. Went there with cash, trailer hitch ready to tow home and the seller sent his daughter to collect the money, she didn't have the title, registration was in someone else's name and the trailer had no paperwork and the decal with the VIN number had fallen off. I told him if he could get the paperwork squared away I head back down and never heard back from him. It's ashame since the hull was perfect with no stress cracks or crazing.

My Whaler has been getting its normal use. The the F70 is a great engine for being super quiet, and it burns a fraction of what the Yamaha two-stroke burned. The one big disappointment with the F70 is how gutless it feels in the lower RPM range. I am running the correct pitch prop, but the two-stroke had much more down low grunt to get on a plane, whereas the four-stroke lacks down low torque, but really moves on the top end. I'm able to see 45.1-MPH top end with a 17-pitch propeller, and after talking to other 15-footer owners with a F70, I'm told if I bump up to an 18 or 19-pitch SCD propeller, I could flirt with 48 to 49-MPH. But my concern is a taller pitch propeller would further reveal lack of low end torque.

Regardless of performance, the boat is getting used and it has been fun. The quietness of the engine and fuel economy is so good, I tend to overlook the performance delta between a two-stroke and a four-stroke engine. I also find that I run the engine jac kplate at full height 90-percent of the time with no propeller ventilation; the only time I lower it is in rough water.

Below are photos of my son running it on a lake: this is not full-throttle.

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Cavitation plate right where I want it, exposed on the top, but still allows prop to have a full bite with the water.

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Enjoying it on a recent 10 day trip. We tow the Whaler behind the tug and it allows us to explore further away than with the RIB.

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Beside my friends 15' Whaler, he tows his on the trip as well.

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D-

Schuyler84
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Schuyler84 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:41 pm

Dave, We have been conversing through the 13' Boston Whaler FB group. This journal of your classic Super Sport 15 restoration / restomod is simply amazing. Your boat restoration and woodworking skills are right up there with the professionals. FasseCo had better keep an eye in their rearview mirror. One thing wasn't clear ... why did you opt to repower?

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm

Schuyler84 wrote:Dave, We have been conversing through the 13' Boston Whaler FB group. This journal of your classic Super Sport 15 restoration / restomod is simply amazing. Your boat restoration and woodworking skills are right up there with the professionals. FasseCo had better keep an eye in their rearview mirror. One thing wasn't clear ... why did you opt to repower?


I'm not a 13' Whaler Facebook group, maybe you meant the 15' group? I've looked at the Fasse' boats and he sure makes them look nice, but I do not care for the EVA foam flooring he installs (SeaDek or equivalent). I've used it in my AB RIB Alum bottom dingy and it's better than standing on the alum floor, but I don't think it holds up over time with wear and UV light. I oringally thought about it for the Whaler but after using it on the RIB, I decided against it.

Here it is in my RIB dingy.

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I did use it in the forward anchor locker and it provides just enough pad so the anchor stays put and doesn't scuff the fiberglass.

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I'm not sure the Fasse boats will see an interior like mine since the labor hours and amount of work cutting and epoxying each strip together is too time consuming to then turn around and sell I could have made a plain mahogany interior in a fraction of the time. I have a complete cabinatelty shop at my disposal and with those tools you can do some nice work, i would have attempted with homeowner tools.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:47 pm

Schuyler84 wrote:Dave...why did you opt to re-power?

Sorry, I forgot to answer this question in my last response. I didn't need to re-power; I wanted to try the F70 because everyone was raving about the engine. I'm a two-stroke-guy and I like the simplicity and down-low torque, but the quiet smooth running of the four-stroke-power-cycle engines always attracted me with no blue smoke, so I re-powered. The two-stroke-70 that I removed was in mint condition and was a great engine that will serve the new owner for many years of use.

My only area of disappointment with the F70 is the bottom end power with people or towing water toys, I feel that the two-stroke-70 was a far better engine for that purpose. While the top-end speed is comparable and the F70 bests the two-stroke-70 by 3-MPH, contribute that to the jack plate I installed when re-powering.

D-

Schuyler84
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby Schuyler84 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:08 pm

Thanks for the replies Dave. Again, simply amazing work. I have had my reservations about SeaDek as well. I'm glad that someone responded with their experience with the product.

POW
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby POW » Wed May 11, 2022 2:20 pm

I want to say thanks for this thread. I spent the winter re-fitting my 1979 15-footer. I used almost every part of your build as a template, from building the interior up a few inches to the placement of the cleats. This is my first boat project so I pretty much just copied you.

dtmackey
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Re: 15 Whaler Super Sport Project - Baystar Steering

Postby dtmackey » Wed May 11, 2022 10:10 pm

POW wrote:I want to say thanks for this thread....
I am glad to hear this. My posting is to show what can be done and provide some how-to along the way.