Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
zigzag930
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Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:53 pm

What is a good location for a 10-inch-diameter loudspeaker for sub-sonic reproduction on a 210 Outrage?

I cannot figure out a good location for the 10-inch diameter loudspeaker for reproduction of subsonic audio frequency. Earlier I though about a shallow mount on the front of the leaning post—clear of the live well—but now I don't know if that's a good location.

I may add a six-channel amplifier to boost the available audio power. I feel adding a six channel amplifier will make a huge difference in the lack of sound from the 210. I need to figure out how to secure the amplifier somewhere in the console.

Anyone that can offer any suggestions would be much appreciated.

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:59 am

Buy a large cooler. Build inside the cooler a very rigid rectangular box using 1-inch plywood. Mount the 10-inch-diameter subsonic loudspeaker in the wooden enclosure. Completely seal the the enclosure so it is air tight—an infinite baffle. Orient the loudspeaker so it is down-firing into the bottom of the cooler. Cut a circular hole in the cooler bottom. Locate cooler with speaker in the usual position on deck.

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:05 am

Why do you need a “six-channel amplifier”?

Are you listening to 5.1 Surround Sound while aboard the boat?

Most recorded music is arranged for two-speaker stereophonic reproduction. There is often no sub-sonic or low-frequency effect (LFE) content in musical recordings.

Are you listening to the soundtrack of cinematic films produced in 5.1 surround that contain a lot of explosions or other elements that need subsonic reproduction to be sensed?

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:17 am

Jim, while I do like your cooler idea (especially down firing), I don't think this will work in my situation. My cooler (R-tic) is used for its traditional purpose and can not be sacrificed for audio. If only I could build a platform under it, that wouldn't raise the cooler too high - that would be great.

As far as 6 channel, I really only need five. LF, RF, LR, RR + channel for sub. If I don't use 4 ch for the main channels, I lose the ability to fade from front to rear. I would bridge the 2 remaining channels for the sub. As the 6.5" speakers don't (and shouldn't) handle the low frequencies, I'd send anything below 120hz to the sub.

I am a bit of an audiophile at home, but realize this is a boat with a poorly designed listening room. No bass traps or room treatments, so I"ll have to make the best of things. I don't expect perfection here, just major improvement over BW's stock setup.

Also, the side firing (console mounted) speakers are not in very good location (acoustically), but that's what I have to deal with.

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:23 am

In order to reproduce low-frequency sound, the loudspeaker must be mounted in a very rigid enclosure. In this way all the acoustic energy goes into the sound waves produced, and not into exciting mechanical motion in the enclosure holding the speaker.

In order to effectively create low-frequency sound waves, the loudspeaker cannot just be mounted in free air. The loudspeaker must work against a rear baffle or the enclosing structure must be designed to redirect the sound wave and invert the phase so it will add constructively to the main front wave.

These two principles must guide the installation of the low-frequency loudspeakers.

In regard to the location of installation being a recent model Boston Whaler boat, the overriding concern must be to not cause damage to the structural integrity of the hull or any other molded components on the boat. The hull warranty might be terminated if any parts of the hull or attaching structures are cut out to allow loudspeakers to be installed.

Another concern is the effect of cutting into any element of the boat for a loudspeaker. In the future the boat may be offered for sale, and buyers may not want a boat that has a number of 10-inch diameter holes cut into molded components of the boat or hull.

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:25 am

zigzag930 wrote:the side firing (console mounted) speakers are not in very good location (acoustically), but that's what I have to deal with.

Yes, on boats with two speakers mounted on the outboard faces on the center console, any hope for good stereophonic reproduction at the helm is lost.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:41 am

Jim,

Regarding the SW - I was of the impression that there are two types. 1) those requiring installation in a "box" and 2) those designed to function in "free air". While I have never had any sub (at home) that wasn't in an extremely HD enclosure, the website at JL audio, sort of made me think that the second type was designed specifically for boats where a "box" could not (or didn't want) to be installed.

Nevertheless, I do understand your other comments, particularly mounting to a rigid surface, which aside from the hull doesn't present many options. The console, leaning post, etc all flex underway - so clearly not a "solid" mounting location. I'm not thrilled about cutting a 10" hole anywhere and hear your thoughts on that. Maybe I can angle a shallow mount (3" rear space) somehow in the gunnel, facing backwards at say 20 degree angle?

I realize this project will be a huge compromise in sound quality due to limited installation options. I'm wondering if the improvement will be worth it and where the point of diminishing returns will be reached. ie. $150 amp and $100 sub OR $600 AMP AND $300 Sub. As I don't expect to obtain the full benefits, due to location installation constraints - I was really hoping someone had done this on a similar 2007 vintage 210 and could provide some specific information on how they did it and what they thought in terms of overall satisfaction. I guess I'm thinking that anything will be some improvement, right?

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:44 am

For mounting electronic devices inside the console, I use this technique:

—a plywood sub panel is prepared, cut to a useful size, stained, and coated with (WEST System) epoxy to become completely waterproof;

—the sub panel is fasten to an interior wall of the console by two to four self-tapping screws; the screw heads are on the exterior of the console, and the screws thread into the sub panel; though-bolting can also be used; the exposed screw heads are oval head with a finish washer.

—various devices are mounted inside the console to the sub panel using self-tapping screws that are not long enough to go through the sub panel.

Image
Fig. 1. A sub panel installed with the method described above. The fastener at upper middle-left is part of the original assembly of the console and is NOT one of the retaining screws that hold the sub panel to the sidewall of the helm area.

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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:05 pm

Re a claim that a loudspeaker could be made to produce efficient sound by being mounted in an open air environment: were that true then you would see speakers employing that technique used everywhere. Why waste money and space on speaker enclosures if they were unnecessary?

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:45 am

I spoke with JL Audio and they claim their "infinite baffle" subs are designed specifically to work "outside" the box in open areas such as a console. Now how they get around the rear wave problems - I can't say, but they are a very well regarded audio company for marine/mobile applications.

I may have found a "trick" location for the sub. On the helm side of the console, there is a footrest that runs from port to starboard, up off the deck. The underside is angled at about 40-45 degrees and there is between 1.5 and 8 inches of space (less forward) between that shelf and the deck. It's not a very thick piece of fiberglass, but I could re-inforce it on the inside. If I can install the sub there, it would be "invisible", which is nice and would fire down at an angle (haven't considered the reflections) into the area between the console and the leaning post.

Thoughts?

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jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 pm

I like the idea—if I understanding correctly—that the loudspeaker will be mounted inside the console into a new and hidden bulkhead, firing downward and aft, and you just make an opening or port in the actual console shell to let the sound waves pass.

Usually a sealed enclosure for a speaker stiffens the speaker cone and surround movement, affecting the natural resonance of the system—to the advantage of moving the resonance lower in frequency where it will be useful and augment the sound output in an advantageous manner. That behavior is why well-designed loudspeakers are built into enclosures.

Certainly a loudspeaker will still produce sound if operated in free air, but putting the speaker in an enclosed cabinet usually improves the sound output in several ways.

That a manufacturer who makes speakers that are sold without any sort of enclosure to be installed in a random manner in boats tells their customers that the speakers will work in that type installation is not surprising, but it does not cancel decades of research and practice in loudspeaker design—or transmute the laws of acoustics.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:10 pm

I found a guy today who is selling a JL M700/5 amp (700 watt RMS, 5 channels), 10" sub and four 8" speakers. We've agreed on price, so if this sale goes through, I will update the forum on my results as soon as I receive them.

While not part of my original plan, I think enlarging the 6.5" speaker holes to install the 8" is a minimal alteration to the boat that will be worthwhile and acceptable to me (as I don't like making extra holes, etc). With these four 8" speakers, I will decide how badly the sub is needed. I will most likely install it as described earlier as this would be a very "neat" installation.

cesarcap
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby cesarcap » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:06 pm

Please post pictures and an update. I replaced my CD player on my 1999 Outrage 23 this year, and my new set up (Clarion M505) is lacking base. I thought about putting the sub behind the hideaway seat in the transom but I might need to get an amp too.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 pm

The audio amplifier and loudspeakers are on the way, so I hope to be updating this thread soon. Tonight I ordered 12-ASG speaker wire, 4-AWG power wire, a 60-Ampere circuit breaker, and crimp battery lugs. I spent another $100 on the project and I haven't even started yet.

My plan is to install the audio amplifier and replace all the wiring first, keeping the existing Panasonic 6.5-inch loudspeakers in place to see how they sound before I start cutting or adding the other loudspeakers. If the 6.5-inch loudspeakers sound decent, I may focus on the sub-woofer loudspeaker and hold off on installing the 8-inch loudspeakers.

I am not sure there is room on the side of the consoles for 8-inch loudspeakers, so adding them may be a moot point.

Stay tuned.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:25 pm

Day one: the project begins.

Today, I cut a PVC board to mount the audio amplifier, circuit breaker and secure all the leads and wiring.

Then I had to figure out where to mount everything, and there were not many choices for location. Originally I was thinking about the starboard side of the console, just above the fire extinguisher. I constructed a template of the mounting board and tried a few other locations, ultimately deciding that inside the console, behind the cooler seemed a better choice.

I removed all the loudspeakers and hooked up the audio amplifier and all the new wiring, including 12-AWG speaker wire to each location. I have not run the rear speaker wires under the deck yet, but wanted to test everything and preliminarily adjust all the settings. I followed the JL Audio guide for adjusting the input gain, but couldn't get high enough voltages on the audio amplifier speaker outputs. A quick call to JL and I was able to download their test tones, which apparently are at the correct signal level.

I hooked up the Kenwood 10-inch subwoofer loudspeaker—leaving it out on the deck—just to be sure it was working. Installation in the rear of the console is for another full day of "enjoyment.”

I've attached a few pictures to show the progress. I still need to clean up inside the console (100 zip ties or so) and re-install the fishing tackle box (above the amplifier).

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the rear loudspeaker wired up properly, clean up the loose wire, and install the subwoofer loudspeaker by this weekend. I'll keep updating the Forum, in case anyone else is considering a similar upgrade.
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Templated and ready to drill
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Mounted and wired up - ready to test
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Original planned location for amp
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zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:27 pm

A few more photos.
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Mounted, but lots of work to do still
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There really are a lot of wires to contend with
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zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:11 am

Today's update. Finished running the rear speaker wires and tidying up all the wires under the console.

I hooked up the 10" Kenwood sub again, just to play around. It was left in the open on a helm pad on the deck. I attached hooked it up to channel 5 (mono sub) on the JL and listened for a while. I was able to get very good bass once I pushed down on the sub to keep it rigid in place. So at least at the dock, I know I can get very nice, balanced sound from this combo - if the sub is rigidly mounted (to something).

I then attempted to place the sub in the console, where I had planned to install it. Unfortunately the Kenwood sub is too deep to fit in the location, on the inside of the footrest on my console. The magnet section of the sub is too tall and interferes with too much wiring, etc in that area. If I install a sub in that location, I'll need to find one that is shallower in depth or possible an 8" sub instead.

If I need switch to an 8" sub, I'm not sure I shouldn't just change two of the 6.5's in the back of the boat to 7.7's. Wondering if that would be an acceptable compromise which would allow me to eliminate the sub until I can figure something else out (location or size, etc).

Back to the drawing board for now.....

jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:48 am

Be sure to check for magnetic interference to the ship’s compass from the permanent magnets in the loudspeakers.

A proper loudspeaker for use on a boat near a compass would have a shielded magnet. The shield contains the magnetic field as much as possible to the loudspeaker and prevents the field from affecting nearby devices (like a compass). For many decades in color television receiver sets the loudspeakers used were very carefully magnetically shielded so they would not deflect the electron beam in the cathode ray tube. Many receiver sets had very good quality loudspeakers, and because they are well shielded they are nicely suited for use on a boat—as long as they are protected from water.

One would hope that a company selling loudspeakers for boats would be selling magnetically shielded ones.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:04 pm

Today, I constructed a box for the Kenwood sub to experiment a bit.

The box was built out of 3/4" plywood. Dimensions were 12 x 12 x 7.5 (external). This did not provide a large volume for air space, but I deliberately made it a small as I could, which would allow the Kenwood to fit. As space is such a premium under the console, I thought this would be a good starting point.

I will take some pics of the box, but it's currently installed in the console. (see attached). The box is is not ported. I will say that the amount of bass from the Kenwood, driven by a 300 watt RMS amplifier channel is beyond my expectation.

I did not cut any holes in the console, bu there is a small horizontal gap where the footrest meets the deck. Space is about 1/4" x 27". The bass DOES find it's way out through here. In contrast to what I hear at the console and rear seats, the bass is much less apparent siting in the front of the boat (no spaces in the console on that side).

I need to tune the amp/sub a bit more as I have the low frequency filter a bit too high which is exaggerating the low/mid bass a bit too much. That (fortunately) is easy with the JL amp.

So I can honestly say that I am very happy with the results so far. I do still need to figure out how to mount the sub box, but I think this will make me happy for a while. Down the road, I might change out the Panasonic 6.5's - but I will say that for 10 year old speakers they really woke up with that new amplifier and I'll run them for a while (or until they blow out).
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jimh
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:24 am

I don’t think you have a sub-woofer. You just have an extra woofer, a loudspeaker designed only to reproduce audible low-frequency sounds. The amplifier probably uses a low pass filter on the two-channel Left and Right inputs and then sums them to L+R and routes them to a separate audio amplifier to drive the woofer.

The “sub” in sub-woofer means sub-sonic, below the range of audible sound. That an 8-inch loudspeaker in a sealed box is going to produce sub-sonic output is doubtful. It probably augments the overall low-frequency response of your audio reproduction system, but likely has little sub-sonic output.

The enclosure you fabricated looks well done. I bet it is very rigid. Good work.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:45 pm

Jim, my sub is actually a 10", so it does go pretty low. By the way as an audiophile, I never understood a subwoofer's role to produce "sub-sonic" frequencies, although many may do that. In general a "subwoofer" is designed to re-produce "sub-bass" sounds to help off load the main loudspeaker's woofers at a certain cutoff.

Instead of a subwoofer - In the past,I have used tactile transducers for generating "subsonic" vibrations, which are felt - not heard.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words on the box design. I used about 1/2 pound of screws, so I don't think it will be vibrating or coming apart in the next 100 year. I will route the edges, epoxy seal it and then coat it with acrylic paint.

The challenge left is a good way to mount it, considering it will need to be on an slight angle as shown in the picture.

zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:36 pm

Finally had some time to work on the sub again.

Today, the box was belt sanded, routered with a radius, filled (wood putty) and re-sanded with a palm sander.

Then decided to try "Flex Seal" liquid rubber paint instead of epoxy & painting (my original plan).

Box could have been wood filled a bit more in a few spots, but I"m very happy with how it turned out - especially considering it will be pretty much hidden in the console.

I'm hoping the "rubberized" paint will hold up well and keep the box from absorbing moisture ("as seen on TV, --I laugh aloud--").

Next to decide exactly how I will secure this box to the deck. It will need to be angled back - but I don't want it to rest on the console. I have noticed the console flexes when underway in rough water, so need to prevent contact with the console itself.
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zigzag930
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby zigzag930 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:37 pm

A few more....
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Ltwhaler
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Re: Adding Subwoofer and Amp to Outrage 210

Postby Ltwhaler » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:19 am

Looks admirable.

For a simple/quick but not nearly as nice solution you can also place a self amplified marine bazooka subwoofer tube in the console.