Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
katpil
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Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby katpil » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:27 am

Here is my solution for relocation [of all-round whie pole lamp on a MONTAUK 17]. For the past few years I've been frustrated with the height and outboard angle of the [all-round white pole lamp] on my classic Montauk. I always had to keep it away from dock posts for fear of bending or breaking it. Decided to take a cue from the placement on new Boston Whaler boats.

I got Perko hardware and installed it as seen in the illustrations below. I bought the 42-inch pole that stands about 78-inches when installed. Also, I like that it easily stores just inside the rod holder cushions.

Some may think this is heresy for a classic Montauk, but it's a better solution for my use of the boat.

IMG_3037.JPG
Fig. 1.
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IMG_3039.JPG
Fig. 2.
IMG_3039.JPG (107.9 KiB) Viewed 8966 times

biggiefl
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Re: Classic Montauk Stern Light Relocation

Postby biggiefl » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:01 pm

It is not a stern light anymore. Not sure how a cop would address that.
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall. :roll:

Oldslowandugly
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Re: Classic Montauk Stern Light Relocation

Postby Oldslowandugly » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:03 pm

It has to be an "all-round light" so I think it will be OK for anchoring. If the law gives you trouble then perhaps add a smaller sternlight for underway. Excellent solution by the way.

jimh
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Re: Classic Montauk White All-round Lamp

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:07 am

A classic MONTAUK never had a sternlight or a stern light or a bow light. It always showed an all-round white light and a combined sidelight. To understand the meaning of these formally defined terms, consult the Navigation Rules at

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/index.php?pageName=NavRulesAmalgamated#rule21

The Navigation Rules at RULE 23 describe the lights that are to be shown by a power driven vessel when underway. For smaller boats a special exemption is provided:

(d)(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in Rule 23(a) exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.


In a MONTAUK 17 (and many other boats) the all-round white light was usually provided by a lamp on a pole mounted at the transom. The ANNEX of the Navigation Rules gives further details about the lights and their location. The VERTICAL position is described in Section 2 of the Annex. It must be 1-meter higher than the sidelights.

The horizontal position is described in Section 3 of the Annex. I do not see any restrictions on the location fore-and-aft of the all-round white light.

The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) has a lengthy recommendation on navigation lighting, and most boat builders in the USA tend to conform to the recommendations of that organization. See

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.A-16.1997.pdf

In that publication for boats less than 12-meters in length the following lighting option--one of many possible--is described:

16.7.1.1.7 a white, all-round light, visible two nautical miles, placed as nearly as practicable to the fore and aft centerline. If centerline fitting is not practicable, one meter minimum above the combination sidelight. AND

16.7.1.1.8 a combination sidelight visible one nautical mile, as nearly as practicable on the same fore and aft line as the all-round light, or located as nearby as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or the all-round white light,


Again, there is not an explicit requirement that the white all-round light be carried at the stern, and in Fig.1. in the publication a diagram shows a small power boat with a combined sidelight lamp at the bow and a white all-round lamp carried amidships.

navigationLightDiagram.png
Fig. 3. Diagram of navigation light options; from ABYC recommendations, their Figure 1, for power-driven vessels less than 12-meters. Note the configuration shown at upper center.
navigationLightDiagram.png (52.66 KiB) Viewed 8907 times


The ABYC recommendations also offer advice to position the navigation lamps so their light is not directly in the view of the helmsman.

16.6.2 Navigation lights shall be installed

16.6.2.1 to prevent the lights from shining into the operator's eyes when the operator is in the normal operating position, and

16.6.2.2 to prevent reflection off a vessel's structure within the operator's field of vision.


The position of the all-round white light shown in Figure 1 (above) proposed as being a alternative solution and being at the helm console does not, from what I understand, violate the Navigation Rules or the the ABYC recommendations, except the light will be shining into the helmsman’s eye, as discussed above.

Considering that the ABYC has likely been in communication with the U.S. Coast Guard and has thoroughly read the Navigation Rules, I expect their recommendations to be in compliance with federal law. Indeed, these recommendations appear to be codified as federal law.

The use of a pole lamp mounted to the center console is not particularly unheard of. For years Boston Whaler used a pole lamp with a base at the center console to support the forward masthead light on many of their OUTRAGE models. Boston Whaler installed the pole lamp on the vessel centerline, which is preferred. In the Boston Whaler use of a pole lamp at the center console, the lamp for for a masthead light. A masthead light only shows forward, not all-round. The lamp was also usually provided with a shade that helped to keep the light away from the helmsman. The lamp also contained two bulbs. The second bulb illuminated the aft sector of the lamp, and when both sectors were illuminated the light emitted was that of an anchor light. In the OUTRAGE configuration the sternlight--here use that term as defined in the rules--was provided on a short pole, just high enough to get over the cowling of the outboard engine(s).

Another interesting source of information and interpretation of regulations concerning navigation lighting is found at

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/navlts.html

jimh
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Re: Classic Montauk Stern Light Relocation

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:21 am

biggiefl wrote:It is not a stern light [sic] anymore.


The all-round white light was NEVER a "stern light" or more properly a sternlight.

biggiefl wrote:Not sure how a cop would address that.


I suspect that the typical on-the-water law enforcement officer, a policeman in a marine patrol situation, might not have in-depth knowledge of the Navigation Rules in regard to vessel navigation lighting required. Since many boats carry the all-round white light at the stern, a law enforcement officer might be unaware that there does not appear to be any explicit requirement for that location in the Navigation Rules.

It might also be prudent to check the boating laws of the particular state the boat is operating in, as there might be state law that requires the navigation lighting to conform to a certain further restriction on the horizontal location of the all-round white light.

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Re: Classic Montauk White All-round Lamp

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:29 am

katpil wrote:...I bought the 42-inch pole that stands about 78-inches when installed. ...


I assume you are measuring from the cockpit deck. The height above the cockpit deck is not a parameter for the vertical location of the white all-round lamp. The lamp should be located 1-meter higher than the combined sidelight. Since the pole is 42-inches and the base of the console is at least as high as the boat gunwale where the combined sidelight is mounted, the height of the all-round white light should be more than 1-meter or 39-inches higher than the combined sidelight, and thus satisfies the requirement for vertical separation of the lights.

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Re: Classic Montauk White All-round Lamp

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:53 am

ASIDE: the mounting of the VHF Marine Band antenna that is visible in Figure 1 and 2 above leaves much to be desired. The base of the antenna is far below the boat gunwales, and the antenna is positioned within two feet of the chart plotter mounting. This location violates the most basic rules for mounting the antenna: that it be carried as high as possible; and that it be located away from other electronic devices which might be affected by the radio-frequency energy being emitted. A further problem is the stowed navigation lamp pole is a metal conductor of a nearly resonant length and is located just inches away from the antenna. Even when the navigation lamp is deployed, it will still be too close to the radio antenna to avoid affecting the operation of the antenna.

Oldslowandugly
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Re: Classic Montauk White All-round Lamp

Postby Oldslowandugly » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 am

Regulations aside, we were taught at the CG Auxiliary class that while several locations are acceptable for the all-round light, the best location is at the stern. The reason for that was so at night an approaching vessel could approximate the length of your craft and avoid you. As an extreme example consider a 28' Grover Built that has a very forward cabin. If the all around light was atop the cabin it would only be 5' or so behind the navigation side lights. There would be 20' of boat aft of the all-around light that would be in the dark at night.

jimh
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:58 pm

I agree that the most common position for an all-round white light on a power boat using combined sidelights is for the light to be shown at or near the stern--but the rules never specify that location or prohibit placing the light farther forward.

Any inference about the length of the vessel is provided by the configuration of the lights shown. There are just three categories:
--vessels greater than 50-meters or164-feet in length
--vessels of 12 to 50-meters or 39 to 164-feet length
--vessels of less than 12-meter or 39-feet length

Any judgement of vessel length made from seeing the navigation lights of a vessel at a distance should be made by noting the three distinctive categories and their distinctive lighting.

If at night you are close to a 17-foot vessel and in a 90-degree crossing situatoin and it happens to have its all-round white light mounted a few feet forward from the transom, the illumination of the light should reveal the transom. And you should not be that close to another boat in a 90-degree crossing situation.

katpil
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby katpil » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:17 pm

On the location of the all-round white light, all the recent 19, 17, and 15-foot Boston Whaler boats I see have them mounted on the console amidships. At first I thought it was an odd thing not to be on the transom. Now I'm a fan.

ASIDE: The observation about my antenna placement is technically correct. However, I only use my VHF for NOAA weather channels, reception is good. I suppose Montauk models in general are difficult to find an ideal antenna mount position--lots of stainless rail and the need to put on mooring covers.

Crusty the Clam
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Crusty the Clam » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:06 am

katpil wrote:On the location of the all around white light, all the recent 19/17/15 foot Whalers I see have them mounted on the console amidships. At first I thought it was an odd thing not to be on the transom. Now I'm a fan.


This is very helpful, including the explanation and information on antenna placement. Thanks for putting up this info as I am considering the same placement. Note, an all-round anchor light is acceptable where I live for a boat of that length.

The question on my mind about the placement of an anchor light has been whether it might interfere with night vision in the event the light were in front of me.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:46 am

Crusty the Clam wrote:...an all-round anchor light is acceptable where I live for a boat of that length.


Unless you live somewhere outside the USA, the federal regulations about using an all-round white light as part of the navigation lighting is acceptable everywhere, as long as the boat is less than 12-meters in length. This does not vary by region or state.

Crusty the Clam wrote:The question on my mind about the placement of an anchor light has been whether it might interfere with night vision in the event the light were in front of me.


An anchor light is shown when the boat is at anchor, not when it is underway. So there is really no concern about having one's night vision affected by the anchor light in terms of operating the boat. Now if you want to retain your night vision while the boat is at anchor, then there will be concern about the light being cast from the anchor lighting.

The same lamp can be used as the all-round white light when underway and as the anchor light when at anchor. The requirement for an anchor light is just that it is in a position where it can best be seen. Putting the anchor light in the middle of the boat and high seems like it meets that qualification.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:18 am

katpil wrote:...all the recent 19, 17, and 15-foot Boston Whaler boats I see have [the all-round white light] mounted on the console amidships.


I was not aware Boston Whaler had made that change. I looked in the GALLERY section of BOSTONWHALER.COM for a good photograph showing the console-mounting of the all-round white light, but I did not find one.

I did find a diagram in the owner's manual for the 170 MONTAUK boat that shows the console mounting of the all-round white light.

diagramFromBostonWhalerManual.png
Fig. 4. A diagram from the owner's manual for a Boston Whaler 170 MONTAUK showing mounting of a pole lamp for the all-round white light on the center console and also its storage location.
diagramFromBostonWhalerManual.png (43.07 KiB) Viewed 8835 times


170MONTAUK_DrawingConsoleDetails.png
Fig. 5. Another diagram showing the pole lamp installed. The legend for callout 4 is "ALL ROUND ANCHOR LIGHT."
170MONTAUK_DrawingConsoleDetails.png (43.65 KiB) Viewed 8829 times


Throughout the owner's guide text, the all-round white light is referred to as an "Anchor Light." This is misleading. The all-round white light is part of the required navigation lighting when the boat is underway. The combined sidelight is referred to as a "Navigation Light." The only time the all-round white light is properly named occurs in diagram 2-15, where the legend in a drawing properly calls it an "ALL ROUND LIGHT (WHITE)."

The owner's manual ought to make more clear the need to install the all-round white light on the console when the boat is underway and navigation lights are required to be shown. It seems to suggest it is only used at anchor.

The problem here is ONE lamp serves two purposes:

--when the boat is underway and navigation lighting is required, the lamp provides the ALL-ROUND WHITE LIGHT;

--when the boat is at anchor and anchor lighting is required, the lamp provides the required ALL-ROUND WHITE LIGHT. Note there there are no formally defined characteristics that are designated uniquely as an "anchor light". That is because the light to be shown at anchor is already defined: it is a all-round white light. When a boat (of less than 50-meters) is at anchor it must show an ALL-ROUND WHITE LIGHT. See Navigation Rule 30.

The "light" is what is seen by the boats. The light comes from a lamp or a lantern. To refer to the lamp or lantern by the light it creates is natural, but in his case the lamp or lantern serves two purposes.

Also, there is no need to refer to the lights to be shown when at anchor as "all-round anchor light." All lights shown at anchor are to be visible from 360-degrees. The is no term "anchor light"; at anchor you show an all-round white light.

The switch that controls the navigation lighting on a power-driven vessel can be best marked with the terms OFF, AT ANCHOR, and UNDERWAY.

ASIDE: many years ago I was aboard a U.S. Coast Guard 41-footer. At the helm there was a very large rotary switch that controlled the navigation lighting. The switch positions were marked by the situation in which the lighting was to be used, that is, the legends on the switch described the situation, not the names of the lights that would be shown. The switch was rather complicated and had many positions, such as OFF, AT ANCHOR, UNDERWAY, TOWING ASTERN, TOWING ALONGSIDE, RESTRICTED MANEUVERABILITY, and so on. I thought this was a very good method of controlling the lighting. The knowledge of which lamps to be illuminated was built into the switch wiring. The operator did not have to know or recall the exact details of which lights were needed. He just needed to put the switch into the right position according to the situation.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:22 am

A photograph showing the all-round white light pole lamp installed on one of these newer Boston Whaler center console boats would be a useful addition to this thread. If anyone has a good photograph, or has found one on the WHALER.COM website, please contribute the image.

jimh
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:53 am

ASIDE: again on the antenna placement: the behavior of a radio antenna is the same on transmit as on receive. Lower mounting height and mounting adjacent to metal conductors of resonant length will affect the antenna on receive as well as transmit.

On small boats, particularly center console boats that may be used for angling, finding the perfect location for a radio antenna mast and the antenna can be a challenge, and certainly a compromise is often made. Since I don't engage in any angling, I tend to put the radio antenna in a location that works best for the radio, even thought that location might be objectionable to anglers.

Crusty the Clam
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Crusty the Clam » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:42 pm

jimh wrote:

Crusty the Clam wrote:The question on my mind about the placement of an anchor light has been whether it might interfere with night vision in the event the light were in front of me.


An anchor light is shown when the boat is at anchor, not when it is underway. So there is really no concern about having one's night vision affected by the anchor light in terms of operating the boat. Now if you want to retain your night vision while the boat is at anchor, then there will be concern about the light being cast from the anchor lighting.

The same lamp can be used as the all-round white light when underway and as the anchor light when at anchor. The requirement for an anchor light is just that it is in a position where it can best be seen. Putting the anchor light in the middle of the boat and high seems like it meets that qualification.


Jim, I was simply saying that a light that is acceptable for anchorage (all around white light) also can be located in a manner to satisfy the nav light requirement (along with appropriate red and green lights) and, if located on the console to achieve nav requirements, would it bother at night? Or could it be elevated sufficiently above my head so as to avoid messing with my night vision. Let me state that more precisely, could an all around white light be located amidships at an elevation such that the light would not significantly degrade the rhodopsin molecules in the rods of my eyes such that I retain adequate night vision?

Moreover, it is not the case that an anchor light shown at anchor will never cause a problem while operating a boat. Adaption to seeing at night takes quite a while. Weighing anchor, you won’t see very well if the anchor light has been in your eyes, and immediate operation of the vessel in darkness will be impaired until your eyes adjust.

Oldslowandugly
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Oldslowandugly » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:34 pm

I actually hate the all-around light when I'm night fishing. I bought the Perko clamp-on glare shield. It was not enough and I ended up using a black plastic coffee can lid added to the shield. That worked better and doesn't interfere with the purpose of the light. Image
Fig. 6. A mechanical shade for a pole lamp.

jimh
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:00 am

When underway at night the other boats around you should be properly showing their own lights that must be visible at a minimum of one mile. The regulations define the actual intensity required. But visible at one mile ought to be sufficiently bright to be seen without difficulty by another boater.

Since the same lamp is used while underway as when at anchor, it has the same effect on night vision in both situations. If the lamp spoils your night vision, it spoils it in both situations.

Even with a shade on the lamp to obscure the light toward the helm, the helmsman will be in the penumbra, particularly if the light is right above his head and directly in front of him.

Put up the Flying Top to act as more shade.

If you must operate the boat at night in waters with hazards to navigation that are not marked with lighted aids-to-navigation, go slowly and use a low intensity focused light beam to search the water ahead.

ASIDE: the word “rhodopsin” does not appear in the Navigation Rules. They are silent on how the required lighting affects rhodopsin levels. We should not speculate on a level of rhodopsin. It would just be obfuscation in this discussion,

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:25 am

Oldslowandugly wrote:I actually hate the all-around light when I'm night fishing...


Unless you have gear in the water that restricts the boat maneuverability, you just show the same lights as if underway or at anchor.

Tell readers where the all-round white light you hate is installed. We can understand better your situation if we knew where the lamp is located.

Oldslowandugly
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Oldslowandugly » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:10 pm

The light is at the stern, port side, same location as the stock Whaler light, angled slightly aft. I like what Katpil did more and more. Mounting the pole lamp to the console would not interfere with angling or landing a big fish. The Perko plug-in type would work best, and I could stow it where I do now, under the bench seat. As for height, being on the console the lamp would be about seven feet above the deck and far away from my eyes.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:38 am

I suspect that an all-round white light using a lamp that has a lens to focus the light into a flatter and more narrow vertical angle of illumination will be helpful in cutting down on stray light getting into the field of vision of the helmsman. Some newer lamps look like they use a lens. A lens will also reduce the light that is scattered back by reflection from the boat decks.

Using a mechanical shade below the lamp on the pole will be more effective when the helmsman is right under the lamp.

Look for a pole lamp with the light fixture using a lens. I think there are some options for that type of lamp. Try a mechanical shade fitting on the lamp at the console. Boston Whaler used those shades on their masthead lamp that was console mounted.

Here are some examples from PERKO:

https://www.perko.com/catalog/category_ ... ga-plugin/

Oldslowandugly
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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Oldslowandugly » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:13 am

You are correct Jim. The light I have now is like having a bare bulb. The light with the flat housing would prevent light shining directly down at me. I think I may have one like that on my original Whaler light pole. Time to go searching in my basement. ImageImage

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby katpil » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:52 am

Oldslowandugly wrote: I like what Katpil did more and more...... being on the console the lamp would be about seven feet above the deck and far away from my eyes.



Oldslowandugly, I made this mod to avoid bending/breaking the stock light pole on dock posts, I was constantly admonishing my kids on this. A NOS OEM pole is on the order of $200. And, there were visibility problems with that setup. I need to back my boat from a dock and the OEM set was just too bright on dark nights, couldn't see a thing. The new set up is great, the all around light housing emits light in a reasonably flat plane so my visibility isnt compromised on dark nights and since the light housing is up high the boat is really visible to others out there in the dark.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby Oldslowandugly » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Katpil—that sounds like a winning set up to me.

I also do some night fishing and the [all-round white] light [mounted at the stern] is blinding no matter what I do to shield it. The other concern is landing a big fish that is hanging tough at the stern with the light pole in the way. Your way the pole would be in the center and I would have 360° of maneuverability to net a fish. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Classic Montauk All-round White Lamp Relocaton

Postby jimh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:12 pm

I mentioned earlier that a power-driven vessel underway should show an all-round white light, and that having that lamp be normally stowed away likely contributes to boaters not bothering to install it at night. I have seen several small power boats operating at night without showing an all-round white light, just cruising along with only the sidelights illuminated.

The result of not showing the all-round white light is to confuse other boats into thinking the power boat is a sailboat (if viewed from ahead) or to be showing no lights (if viewed from astern).

The handier the installation of the pole lamp becomes and the fewer drawbacks to its illumination there are, the more likely the boater will be showing the proper lights. In this regard, the change by Boston Whaler to move the all-round white light on many of their small model to be mounted at the center console is a good move.

The modification to the older MONTAUK discussed in this thread is also a reasonably good move in those regards, as long as the existing lamp has a lens to focus the light and has a shade, or in some way does not blind the helmsman with its light. The location shown being slightly off center seems somewhat unusual.

I am going to do some more research into the relationship between combined sidelight lamps and all-round white lamps mounted off-center or on-center. I think there might be more logic and clear thinking about these lights in the rules than first meets the eyes.