1997 17' Outrage II Water in Fuel problems

[isaacbf]

I bought a 1997 Outrage II with 1997 Evinrude Ocean Pro 115 two-stroke-power-cycle engine in June 2020, earlier this summer.The seller had taken good care of the boat, including replacing the fuel tank in 2018. Work was completed by a local, fairly reputable marine mechanic. Three times in the last three weeks I've had water in the boat's fuel, resulting in a tow home. The fuel appears to be phased; uniformly milky white consistency with little trance separation visible, both in the tank (although only the bottom of the tank) and of course right before going into the engine (samples taken just prior to VRO).

Brief timeline of events to-date:

• -Day trip with family, boat ran well for prior weekends and again for 6 hours. Turned engine off and tied up at the bar, went to fire engine back up and it ran for 5 mins or so before power drop. Starter motor runs strong, but engine does not catch. Tow home.
• - Next weekend, replaced VRO as I thought this was the concern (bought OEM parts), convinced the engine back to life, ran well for about 6 hours at all ranges of RPM before power loss and another tow home. At this point we inspected the fuel and identified a phasing concern. Previously thought it was a failed fuel pump, hence the VRO replacement.
• - Over the week had the tank pumped by a fuel polishing service, they removed 32 gallons of gas. Refilled tank (again, 2018 aluminum replacement tank) with fresh gas. Boat ran well for 2-3 more outings before the same concern occurred.
• - Removed console/deck to access tank, inspected tank, performed home-grown pressure test, and inspected compartment - tank looks to be in great shape, no bubbles from pressure test, no visible areas of concern. Replaced fill line, vent line (which previously had no loop, included loop on re-install), and pickup line with new parts and new hose clamps. Lines that came off the tank looked to be in good condition, no immediately visible cracks or perforations. Sending unit appears to be in good shape, gasket is dry when removed. Did not replace but have parts on order.
• - Currently having tank pumped AGAIN ($300/pop) prior to fresh gas for this trip. I always stabilize gas with Star Tron per the bottle's instructions. No readily available ethanol free fuel near me, so use a conventional gas station. Boat yard owner reports never having a problem with fuel at same gas station, it's along side a major highway and get's regular use.

What [is causing the water in the fuel]?

[Give me ideas of how to [find the source of the water in the fuel.

My overriding concern to-date is we've not replaced or identified anything that is visibly the cause of the [water in the fuel], so I feel like I'm just about to take another ride on the merry-go-round of problem. Please let the wisdom dispensing commence.

The fue ltank during the new line installation:

[biggiefl]

You do not need to pay somebody $300 to drain the fueltank. Water settles to the bottom. Pump out fuel with your fuel primer bulb until the fuel is clear of water .

It may be a lot cheaper to buy a fuel-water separator filter with drainable bowl. Drain into a jar until clear.

Use a different retail gasoline station. Make sure no water is getting in your tank cavity.

Do you smell fuel if you open an access plate?

[MarkCz]

Have you tried running the engine on a portable 6 gallon style fuel tank yet? That would be my next step before anything.

[isaacbf]

Thanks BiggieFL.

The problem: I don't just have water in the tank, it's that the gas has phase [separated]. There doesn't appear to be clear separation, just a uniformly milky liquid.

We do have a fuel-water separator but it isn't the [clear] bowl model. That might be a good pickup as well.

I swapped out the fuel-water separator when I installed new fuel lines. The filter was visibly rusty. It had been in the system for two weeks at most.

There is no odor of fuel from the access plate, or when we picked up the tank to inspect. The tank was half-full.

Haven't tried running the engine on a portable tank, but I am investing in one as an insurance policy moving forward.

Thus far the engine has shown no signs of trouble given access to good fuel.

I currently believe the [cause of the engine shutting down] to be entirely water ingress to the fuel system onboard the boat rather than via the engine.
But that said, I haven't fixed the [fuel in the water] yet, so who knows?

[jimh]

Check the vent hose connection at the tank. Follow the vent hose to the actual vent on the hull or wherever it goes. Maybe in the work done to replace the fuel tank there was an error made in hose routing, and a deck drain hose is draining into the fuel tank instead of the fuel tank vent being connected.

Your comments about fuel phase separation are confusing. Either there is phase separation or there isn’t. Gasoline can only hold in solution a very small amount of water. Agitation of the fuel will create an emulsion, but if left to settle the water and gasoline will separate again.

Ethanol blended gasoline that has water separation will have lost octane and cannot be reused. Your old two-stroke-power-cycle low-compression engine might start and try to run on low-octane fuel, but I wouldn’t trust it.

[quickenberger]

Use a clear polyurethane hose to temporarily to see if the milky fuel is coming from the tank. Connect the hose from the tank to the suction side of the primer bulb, then to the discharge side of the primer bulb, etc moving downstream as you continue to diagnose.

I had a problem with the Vapor Separator Tank (VST) on my E-TEC 150 HP engine where water and air was being pulled into the VST by the high pressure pump. When pressure was checked at the Schrader valve milky fuel leaking out was the indication. A clear piece of hose may help isolate where the contamination is coming from.

[jimh]

If the new fuel tank has been pressure tested and holds a modest 2-PSI or so of positive pressure, then there is no leak in the tank or other parts of the fuel system involved in the test. If the tank and fuel lines are all new and intact, the water in the tank is probably being pumped in with the fuel, or perhaps some how you left some water in the fuel tank after it was installed.

Another source of water into the fuek tank can be at the filler fitting. A bad seal or missing O-ring could let water into the filler line.

[Don SSDD]

Dump the fuel in your water separator into a clean clear glass bottle and let it sit to see if there is water in your gas now. If the gas you have bought is contaminated, you’d think there would be a lot of other boaters and automobiles with your problem. When buying gas in future, maybe fill a clear 1 gallon jug with gas and see if it has water in it?

Your tank doesn’t leak from a hole in it as you’ve pressure tested it and even a small leak will reek of gas. So as Jim said, it has to be getting in there from some leaky connection upstream of the tank.

I’d try running it off the portable gas tank to eliminate any problems on the engine side.

[isaacbf]

Thanks for all the responses and thoughts to-date.

On August 8 and 9, 2020, I replaced all the [fuel hose].The fuel in the tank was pumped out and the tank allowed to dry. I filled the tank with 15-gallons of gasoline.

I coaxed the engine back to life, and it seems to run well. The engine ran for about three hours without hiccups.

My current hypothesis [about the cause of the watering the fuel tank is from] the new tank having been installed without a loop in the vent line. I re-installed all [fuel hose] lines and included [a loop in] the vent line.

After looking at the vent outlet underway it doesn't often get splashed or get wet, but a wave or two, particularly when moving slowly through sloppy sea conditions [does something ].

The mechanic reported pumping the tank and [finding] 0.75-gallon of pure water. The other 30-gallons of fuel was phased gasoline.

Could that all be from the vent outlet over the course of 15 hours underway?

I hope so but I am not convinced.

[jimh]

After looking at the vent outlet underway it doesn't often get splashed or get wet, but a wave or two, particularly when moving slowly through sloppy sea conditions [does something ].

I think you left out something in the above sentence. I don't understand what you are describing.

[jimh]

...The other 30-gallons of fuel was phased gasoline.

I don't understand what is meant by "phased gasoline."

The term "phase" is generally used in regard to mixing of gasoline and water to describe the formation of a PHASE BARRIER or clear line of separation between the gasoline and the water. Gasoline can only hold a small amount of water in solution. Once the concentration of water exceeds the maximum amount that can exist in solution with the gasoline, addition water cannot enter into solution with the gasoline and stays as a separate liquid, separated by the phase boundary.

The gasoline that remains is still gasoline. I am not familiar with the term "phased gasoline."

I am familiar with the following situation that may occur when gasoline-ethanol blended fuel is mixed with water. If a gasoline fuel is a blend of gasoline and ethanol, there is concern about gasoline fuel after phase separation with water occurs. The concern is the tendency for the alcohol to go into solution with water. Alcohol and water can exist in solution at very high concentrations of alcohol, so the water pulls the alcohol out of gasoline. If blended gasoline-ethanol fuel is exposed to high concentrations of water that causes the water to leave the solution with the blended gasoline, the ethanol tends to go out of solution with the gasoline and into solution with the water.

Gasoline that was blended with ethanol and has experienced a loss of the ethanol will also experience a loss of octane. The ethanol was an octane booster. The depleted-octane gasoline will generally not be suitable for use in internal combustion compression engines.

If you were attempting to describe the gasoline fuel that was pumped out of your tank as being octane-depleted, I am not sure how you would have been able to assess the fuel's octane. I don't think the appearance of the gasoline is an indicator of its octane.