Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
Marlinmate
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Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby Marlinmate » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:32 am

I've ordered the three piece rub rail for my 13-footer: white L-channel, white rub rail, and black [vinyl] insert.

Q1: what screw head is better among flat head, pan head, and oval head?
Q2: is a #8 x 1-inch screw good?
Q3: is a #8 x 1-inch screwr bad?
Q4: why is a #8 x 1-inch screw either good or bad?
Q5: what are the tricks to installing the three-piece rub rail?
I fix reels. I build rods. I tinker. Now apparently, I fix boats.

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby jimh » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:34 am

Your topic has been thoroughly discussed already.

Please read the FAQ answer at

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/FAQ/#Q13

Please read

Rub Rail: Installation with New Fasteners, New Holes
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/014383.html

Rub rail fasteners
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/020561.html

Rub Rail Rivet Removal
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/017726.html

Rub Rail Installation: Plastic Receiver Very Stiff
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/020870.html

RUB RAIL INSTALLATION TIPS AND TRICKS
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000070.html

and more advice at this LINK

biggiefl
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby biggiefl » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:15 am

[Having] three people is the trick [to easier rub rail installation].
On my 24th Whaler. Currently in the stable: 86 18' Outrage, 81 13' Sport(original owner), 87 11' Sport, 69 Squall(for sale cheap).

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby jimh » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:39 am

A crucial element in the installation: very warm air temperature, with all components very warm. Do not attempt installation with cold air ambient and materials at cool temperatures.

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby jimh » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:26 pm

Marlinmate wrote:Q1: what screw head is better among flat head, pan head, and oval head?

The merits of the shape of the head of a screw fastener is discussed at another website. I recommend reading:

https://fastenerengineering.com/

My recommendation: use a pan-head screw. The basis for my recommendation is taken from FASTENERENGINEERING.COM as follows:

The flat underside of a pan head screw provides a large mating surface area, which allows a firm hold, even with enlarged holes, and minimizes crushing....The flat or slightly domed profile provides a trim finish for decorative applications and minimizes the risk of catching the screw head while in use

Source URL: https://fastenerengineering.com/what-ar ... d%20socket.

For the choice of a drive, the most easily located fasteners with proper drive will likely be Phillip-head. Other good drives will be Robertson (very common in Canada), Torx, and Pozidriv (which looks like Phillips but is much better).

For more on screw head drive configurations and their merits, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

Marlinmate
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby Marlinmate » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:13 pm

First failure: I started to install the rub rail. I drilled the first 13/64-inch-diameter hole (seen at far right below), and I used 3/16 x 5/8-inch rivets. The boat hull is pristine and all original holes have been filled in.

133865389_10224033409972065_4114900288626274237_n.jpg
Fig. 1. Three rivet holes in hull
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I got to the second hole and [the rivet] wouldn't bite.

I tried a third hole using a 3/16-inch-diameter drill bit, and [the rivet also] pulled out.

I aborted the project until I do some more research. At this point, the first rivet came out too.

Q6: what was [the cause of the rivets busting out of the hull]?

Q7: are longer rivets needed?

My next option is to use screws.
I fix reels. I build rods. I tinker. Now apparently, I fix boats.

ChristopherL
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby ChristopherL » Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:18 pm

Marlinmate wrote:I got to the second hole and [the rivet] wouldn't bite...
Q6: what was [the cause of the rivets busting out of the hull]?

Q7: are longer rivets needed?


Marlinmate--I'm no expert, but in Spring of 2020 I replaced the three piece [rub] rail on my 15-footer. I followed the tutorials linked above. Having an extra set of hands, or multiple grip clamps to hold the rub rail receiver (rigid plastic channel) in place while beginning to rivet it in place is essential to prevent undue stress on the rivets when starting out. Also, as a side note, the black rubber insert (final piece of rail) is best installed with an extra set of hands to prevent scuffs.

As for your choice of rivet size, it sounds like the rivet shank may have been too short to fully penetrate the two sections of the hull, and allow it to grip on the backside of the fiberglass. The rivets that came with the rail kit I purchased from Specialty Marine were 3/16-inch [diamter] with a length of 2-3/8-inch (also called Grip range of 0.751 to 0.875-inch) with a large head to help spread the clamping force on the U-channel. As you mentioned above, it sounds like you used a 3/16 x 5/8-inch rivets.

For comparison, Specialty Marine lists the same kit/rivet size for your 13' as my 15'.
REF: https://www.specialtymarine.com/collections/classic-13-1958-1976/products/boston-whaler-oem-rub-rail-fits-classic-9-17-off-white-with-black-insert

From your photo, it looks like possibly your rivets weren't long enough, and were trying to expand and clamp while still inside the fiberglass [laminate layer].

I'd suggest comparing your existing rivets to something on par with the outlined and specified ones above.

Hope that helps,
-Chris

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Phil T
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby Phil T » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:59 am

The hole position in your photo is too high. Should be in the middle of the rigid insert. Down say 1/2-inch.
Member since 2003
1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

bobross
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby bobross » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:02 pm

Marlinmate, I finished installing the [rub] rail on my 1977 Whaler 13 rescue project on February 2, 2021. I bought [the replacement rub rail kit] from Specialty Marine. [The rub rail kit from Specialty Marine] came with the long rivets described above by ChristopherL.

Helpful things I can pass along:
  • I started using some of my old woodworking screw-in style clamps, and using scrap wood pieces to keep the clamps from marring the finish. Immediately obvious that this was hopeless. Went to Harbor Freight and got the "Irwin" style clamps. Pistol-grip tighteners, quick release, plastic padded clamp jaws, and only $2.99 ea. So I got four.
  • The Harbor Freight heat gun was essential for softening up the rail so it could be bent to the boat. I also used the heat gun on the black insert, and it made installing that much easier. With the heat gun, I was able to install that by myself. I could pop the softened black insert into the groove with my fingers, and then smack it with the rubber mallet to set it in place. I needed my wife to help with attaching the rail.
  • Sometimes, the clamp on the heat-softened rail would deform the rail grooves. But, a little heat and a screwdriver blade could straighten them out before installing the black insert.

Too bad you have to repair those holes before going forward. That will probably set back your progress a few days. I have enjoyed watching your project from afar in Oregon.

Bob

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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby jimh » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:09 am

Bob--thanks for mentioning that use of a second person, use of clamps, and use of heat were helpful for your installation of the rub rail. Your experience in using a second person, using clamps, and using heat has also been reported by other installers of replacement rub rails. Based on your comments and many comments from others, it seems like using another person, using clamps, and using heat are helpful techniques to aid the installation of replacement rub rail.

In the REFERENCE article that describes replacement rub rail installation, there are mentions of use of a second person, use of clamps, and use of heat to aid the installation. Compare at

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/rubRail.html

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby jimh » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:15 am

bobross wrote:...got the "Irwin" style clamps.


Please give a link to a web page that illustrates an Irwin-style clamp.

drewread
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Five Questions

Postby drewread » Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:23 pm

jimh wrote:
bobross wrote:...got the "Irwin" style clamps.


Please give a link to a web page that illustrates an Irwin-style clamp.


I'm not the OP, but I would assume that they are talking about one handed bar clamps.

https://www.irwin.com/tools/clamps/one-handed-micro-bar-clamps

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby jimh » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:21 pm

DREW’—Thanks for information on Irwin-style clamps. I don’t believe that term has ever been used on CONTINUOUSWAVE so additional clarification was needed

bobross
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby bobross » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:23 pm

Here is the link to the product I was referring to. I had never heard the term "Irwin clamps" either until recently when reading about installing the rub rail, and others used the term. I don't think I have ever actually seen an "Irwin" clamp. Maybe "ratcheting clamp" is a better term.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-ratc ... 64154.html

jimh
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby jimh » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:38 pm

BOB--thanks for the link to the product you used as a clamp for installation of the rub rail plastic channels. The cost of $3 should allow several clamps to be purchased, even if you don't have an on-going need for them.

Regarding the cracking of the gel coat layer: the gel coat layer of the laminate is very brittle, and trying to expand the rivet against the gel coat layer is always going to result in the gel coat layer fracturing and cracking apart. The rivet length should be sufficiently long so that the expansion end of the rivet is expanding against the foam inside the Unibond hull, with the rivet being drawn down to bear against the laminate layer.

I am not a big fan of rivets. You really need to get the right rivet for a rivet-fastened attachment to be good. But if you get the right rivet and get that rivet installed just right, the river should hold firmly and for a long time.

Good luck with the re-fit with the longer rivets.

dtmackey
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby dtmackey » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:31 pm

I've been holding back on this thread...

I done a half dozen or so Whaler rubrails over the years and here's what I recommend.

Throw the rivits away and get yourself some stainless philips pan head sheet metal screws, 8 X 1-1/4 and clear drill the hard white rubrail piece so the screw can turn, but have room to wiggle. Then drill into the boat, I like every 6" with maybe less distance on the bow curves. While I've never had the luxury of a helper, it would make a big difference. The clamps mentioned are ideal for this job, since you have what appears to be a painted interior, a little cloth on the inside of the hull might be a good idea.

The coil is a bear to work with and while warm temps are better, I've found that clamping the rigid portion of the rubrail to a 2X4X12' or longer and letting it set a couple days helps remove some the the plastics memory of the coiled state.

One more thing, when I filled my old holes, I did not want my redrilled rubrail trying to bite the filler I used, so I put a piece of blue painters tape on the gunnel and marked every old filled hole and made sure I did not resdrill in that are - move 1 - 2" either side of it.

Good luck and report back.

D-

Marlinmate
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Re: Rub Rail Installation: Seven Questions

Postby Marlinmate » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:30 am

RUB RAIL UPDATE - I ended up getting some screws from Sue L at Beacon. Self tapping, Stainless, and with some sort of orange epoxy already on them.

I used at least 4 clamps and started on the port side. My 15 year old son learned some new words, but in the end, we got it installed.

Started out predrilling each hole with a very small bit. Injected some 5200 into the holes and then screwed in the screws. That lasted about 10 screws and then it was just straight self tapping them into the rubrail and boat.

Son had a heat gun and was working a few feet ahead of me all the way around the boat.

One small area on the bow where the L Channel (of the 3 piece rubrail) raised up. Hoping it will lay down once out of the garage and in the sun. Its only about 2 inches
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I fix reels. I build rods. I tinker. Now apparently, I fix boats.