Dauntless 220 Re-power

Optimizing the performance of Boston Whaler boats
cspaldi
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Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:35 am

We have a 2004 Dauntless 220 with the originally equipped Mercury F225 saltwater series four stroke engine with original controls. We are the original owners and have been having some minor low speed hesitation, rough running and slow starting problems since 2009. The concern was ultimately determined to be related to corrosion holes in the water passages and a lower cylinder in the block and the dry exhaust manifolds. Although it never left us stranded, the patches are no longer holding. We are being told by the local Mercury dealer (and a second opinion where we store the boat in the winter) that it is not worth it to fix the engine (new powerhead and manifold, I assume) and that we should look at a replacement engine.

We are currently working with Quimby Marine in Easton on the eastern shore of Maryland. They are recommending a new Yamaha 225 hp four stroke, apparently the literature is not out for this new engine yet. As this is going to be a very expensive undertaking, I would appreciate any repower recommendations and thoughts for a 225 hp engine. We like the quiet operation, relative fuel efficiency and no oil tank aspect of the four stroke, but honestly have not heard or operated the new crop of two stroke engines to know how large the difference may still be. Cost is always a concern, but not necessarily the sole driver of the decision. We also want a reliable engine and am a bit concerned about a newly released engine type. Any thoughts as to the best repower options (and any relatively close dealers for the repower) would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks and happy holidays.

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Phil T
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby Phil T » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:30 pm

With any repower, the best advice is to shop around. Buying an outboard is like shopping for a car. You need to find the best price since they vary ALOT.

Every outboard brand has a very good 200, 225 or 250 4 stroke or DFI 2 stroke. The key items are price, motor features and service.
Easton (in the DELMARVA) is relatively close to Annapolis and other dealers. I would shop other brands and dealers.

It is highly recommend you get a detailed quotes from several dealers that lists everything in detail. If they do not provide one or refuse to, find another dealer.

Motor
prop
binnacle
each harness
each gauge
cost to derig old
cost to rig and install new motor etc.
cost to sea trial.
Sales Tax

Take your time to investigate which motors require new rigging, gauges, throttle and which can re-use your existing. Some owners re-powered and kept the existing gauges and throttle. Several years later they upgraded their gauges and throttle.(Talkin' about you, Jim).
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jimh
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:15 pm

I am rather sure the engine on the 2004 Boston Whaler DAUNTLESS 220, while painted black and marked as a Mercury engine, is really a Yamaha engine. At that time period Mercury did not have their own high-horsepower four-stroke-cycle engine line. They were in the process of developing their FOURSTROKE VERADO engine, and to fill the gap they bought thousands of 225-HP engines from Yamaha, which got black paint, Mercury decals, and some Mercury-compatible rigging. I mention all of this because your narrative mentioned corrosion problems. If you are not already aware, you should look into the potential for some compensation for the corrosion. See

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2012/oct ... laints.asp

for more background.

Also, the 225-HP Yamaha four-stroke-cycle engine was a first-generation four-stroke-cycle outboard engine, and by that I mean it was really very basic in its design. There was not much performance enhancing equipment on that engine. There was:

--no variable valve timing or cam phasing
--no super charging
--no really large displacement
--no special intake or exhaust designs or tuning methods

and, as a result, the engine performance was not on-par with what a contemporary two-stroke-cycle engine could deliver.

And, to add to the general lacklustre performance, the power rating at 225-HP was probably optimistic. I mention all this because when you re-power with a modern 225-HP engine, either two-stroke-cycle or four-stroke-cycle, the power output of the engine at peak horsepower is probably going to be greater than you've been experiencing, and the power band that the engine will deliver its torque will be wider. Be prepared to get more performance from your "225" re-power engine.

Phil's comments about getting detailed quotes are very good advice. When shopping for a loose engine to be installed as a re-power, getting comparable quotes is difficult. Each dealer wants to throw-in or omit some element of the total cost of the re-power. The poor dealer who includes every item and shows its cost is going to have the highest total price. The dealer that just quotes the engine out-the-(back)-door (still in a crate) at a rock bottom price may impress with the low price, but you won't be getting everything needed to complete the re-power. You need to make adjustments to quoted prices to figure out how they really rank.

I re-powered in 2009 and bought a new 225-HP engine. The biggest single factor in my choice of engine brand was the selling dealer. I really liked the dealer. A new 225-HP outboard engine is going to be an expensive purchase, so you better really like the dealer you are doing business with. You are going to be handing him a big check.

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby flymo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:27 am

You have what's called a "Mercaha" which is basically a 3.3L Yamaha V6 painted black. Yamaha had a problem with exhaust corrosion in these motors made prior to 2005. You may or may not be able to get Yamaha to help you pay for the repair, but it is certainly worth a try. In any case, although it is a big job, fixing this does not involve replacing the powerhead, but rather some exhaust components. If your motor has relatively few hours on it and is otherwise running fine, you may want to consider the repair option. It would cost several thousand dollars but way less than a new motor.

Another option would be to replace the motor with the newer version of the same thing - Yamaha still sells the 3.3L V6, which has been upgraded somewhat. The advantage here is that you may be able to re-use your existing mechanical controls, which will save you some money. The newer 4.2L V6, or another brand, will require new controls.

I am not quite sure what the person from the marina is talking about regarding the Yamaha being new. Neither the 3.3L nor the 4.2L V6s Yamaha sells are new; both have been out for several years. I'm always a bit skeptical when a retailer gives me bad information - makes me think they are trying to dump something they have in stock, not help me find the best solution for my situation. Hopefully it was just an honest mistake or misunderstanding, but you may want to be careful.

I personally own a 2005 F200 (that's a 3.3L V6) and it has been flawless. I have a number of friends that have the newer 4.2L V6s and love them - they are lighter than the 3.3s too. And of course there are many other motors available - you will find that the modern, direct injection 2-strokes such as the Evinrude eTec are every bit as quiet and easy on fuel as your current 4-stroke, so the question comes down to whether you can live with an oil tank.

Personally, I would investigate the repair option, and if that does not work, start looking around for your next motor. For me that would likely be an eTec or a Yamaha 4.2L, depending on the dealer support available locally. The 3.3L Yamaha would save you a few bucks, but if you're going to keep the boat for a long time, it really won't amount to that much per year - and as the saying goes, "there's no substitute for cubic inches."

Good luck with your search!

Tim

cspaldi
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:15 am

Thanks for all the responses, very helpful. We have been moving down the repower path and have made the decision to only look at 4 stroke options. We have been advised by the "most local" shop that a Yamaha 4 stroke 3.3l V6 225 h.p. engine would be the easiest/most cost effective 4 stroke replacement option. I understand this is largely the same engine as the 1st generation Mercury 4 stroke we currently have, but with better internal coatings and some powerhead changes to make it more efficient. My understanding is that going with this engine will allow use of our existing steering system, which saves cost. The quote for just the engine is a shade under $20K and they suggest also replacing the controls, cables, switches, prop, and gauges (identified as tach, speedo and harness). The overall quote looks complete to me and includes labor, but does not include a sea trial.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this as the most economical 4 stroke repower path. Is it common to try to negotiate with the dealer or do you just pick the best quote and go with it? Also, what happens to or old engine with corrosion/powerhead problems? Honestly, I know it is old technology, but we thought the old engine did a fine job performance-wise, and would be happy with the same (or even slightly better) performance in a package that did not have the same corrosion problems. We are looking at about $25K all in for the repower on this quote.

Many thanks.

cspaldi
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:50 pm

To follow up on my above post, I got a quote this afternoon from a different relatively close dealer for a new 4 stroke Suzuki 225 hp installed and all ready to go out the door for $16.9k. That is dramatically less expensive than the Yamaha quote. Thoughts?

Thanks!

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:31 pm

Suzuki was the first outboard manufacturer to abandon two-stroke-cycle engines and move to an all-four-stroke-cycle line; Yamaha still makes two-stroke-cycle engines.

Suzuki was the first outboard manufacturer to go to all electronic fuel injection on their engines.

Suzuki was the first manufacturer to offer a six-year warranty. This really changed the entire outboard engine market warranty offers. Before Suzuki, manufacturers tried to sell outboard engines with one-year warranties.

Suzuki was the first manufacturer to offer a gear case that could be standard-rotation or counter-rotation with just an electronic change. I think they are still the only one to offer this feature.

I think Suzuki was the first manufacturer with a few other enhancements, too, but I am not certain. What comes to mind are features like tuned intake manifolds and multiple valves per cylinder

When I was in the saltwater areas of North Carolina a few years ago, Suzuki outboard engines dominated the local market. There are often differences from region to region. In my home region, Suzuki is not well represented.

I don't see that there could be $8,000 difference between a Yamaha and Suzuki outboard, and particularly when the Yamaha outboard is mostly an old-fashioned engine, lacking any special technology.

There was one really funny criticism of Suzuki that I think was supposed to be a negative comment: "Suzuki is trying to buy marketshare." I think that just was some attempt to turn a very positive feature of Suzuki--a lot of engine for less money--into something that was supposed to be a negative. I never understood this. I don't understand why I would want to pay the higher price or perhaps the highest price when I could get something equivalent in another brand for substantially less.

In general, buying an outboard engine is not a rational decision. It is like marine jewelry when you compare the price of an outboard to automotive engines of similar power. You can buy a complete car for the price of an outboard engine.

If you like the dealer, like the engine, like the lower price, then what is there not to like? Again, you need to like the dealer and have trust in him to properly install and set-up the engine, and to provide proper support and service in the future.

cspaldi
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:00 pm

Good points. We made the decision today to go with a new Suzuki. The cost turns out with sales tax to be "only" a $7,000 difference--but still. We feel good about the dealer and looking forward to the new engine. I hope the dealer has a good handle on installing the correct new propeller for our hull.

Is there anything else to be concerned about as relates to this re-power on a 2004 Dauntless 220? Thanks!

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:09 pm

I just realized that I did not update this post:

We ended up making a switch to the Suzuki 200-HP four-cylinder engine on our Dauntless 220 due to the additional cost savings. A 225-HP engine was about $16,900 while the 200-HP was about $13,700 at Spring 2016 prices.

The Suzuki 200-HP engine was rigged with a three-blade 16 x 20 Suzuki propeller, and set deep at the [lowest possible mounting height]. At WOT, the engine could only accelerate to about 5,200-RPM and produced a boat speed of about 38-MPH (per SmartPhone).

At the 20 hour service, we asked the dealer to raise the engine a hole or two to get the RPM higher. The dealer did not change the engine height but instead put on a three blade 15-1/4 x19 Suzuki propeller (at no charge).

With the new prop 19-pitch , WOT engine speed increased to about 5,900-RPM and boat speed to about 44-MPH trimmed (per SmartPhone).

We could probably improve the numbers a bit raising the engine one hole, as it is still deep, and I can't see the anti-ventilation plate. But the numbers are much better, so we are more likely to just leave it like it is.

Otherwise, very happy with the engine. Hope this is informative to anyone else thinking about a Suzuki re-power. Thanks

myakka
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby myakka » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:13 pm

Thanks for the update.

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Phil T
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby Phil T » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:14 am

...asked the dealer to raise the engine a hole or two to get the RPM higher. The dealer did not change the engine height but instead put on a three blade 15-1/4 x19 Suzuki propeller...


It really confounds me why a dealer will ignore a request from a customer and then, to compound the situation, remove and replace a component on a $15,000 engine without permission.

While your engine setup reads to be decent, it is not optimal. The engine height and propeller selection are critical for the general performance and the efficient operation of the engine. If the engine does not reach its WOT power band, it may "lug" the engine and that may lead to problems; an undersized prop can lead to over-revving: think of driving a car up a steep hill in 5th gear or even 2nd gear.

The Suzuki DF200A has a WOT RPM range of 5500 to 6100.

If you raise your engine two-holes (assuming it is all the way down) you will gain about 300-RPM engine speed and probably 4-MPH boat speed. Your cruising speed will also increase by 2 to 3-MPH.

This is not about going WOT. It's about overall performance at all speeds.

If your dealer does not raise your engine when you ask them, you need to find another dealer. Seriously.
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jimh
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:20 am

For some unknown reason, many dealers performing a re-power of a Boston Whaler boat routinely install the engine in the lowest possible mounting position on the transom. This is generally not the best location, as it seems--based on many reports--engine mounting height is always better at one-hole-up from lowest. That the dealer would not change the engine mounting height when explicitly asked for by the customer seems also rather odd, as Phil has also noted.

In the particular re-power being discussed here, the change to a smaller diameter and lower pitch propeller had the effect of allowing the engine to accelerate to a higher speed; engine RPM increased to 5,900 from 5,200. That is quite a significant change in engine speed for only a 1-inch change in pitch to 19-pitch from 20-pitch. Normally a 1-inch pitch change would produce only about a 250-RPM change in engine speed, by a old rule of thumb.

The propeller diameter was also decreased by 3/4-inch to 15-1/4-inch from 16-inch, and this certainly contributed to the change in engine speed, too.

I have a few comments about the dealer swapping propellers instead of raising the engine:

--it is much less work to change a propeller than to change the engine mounting height, so I suspect the dealer chose the propeller change option as a means of altering the engine speed with much less work and labor on his part;

--the replacement propeller the dealer provided at no additional cost was probably a less expensive propeller than the original one purchased in the engine re-power bundle, so the dealer took back some of the customer's value for himself.

ASIDE: when describing engine mounting height, the only unambiguous method of describing the engine mounting position is to refer to the lowest possible position and then describe the number of increments of 0.75-inch (the hole spacing) that the engine has been raised. Please see the pinned article at the top of this forum for more explanation of engine mounting height description.

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:36 am

Regarding how the anti-ventilation (A-V) plate should appear when the boat is at planing speed and the engine trim is optimum: the A-V plate should be:

--visible and be at the surface of the water flow, or perhaps

--just above the surface of the water flow, or maybe

--almost breaking the surface of the water flow.

But the A-V Plate should certainly NOT be so far below the water flow that it cannot be seen.

There is an archived thread with illustrations that shows a number of installations and comments on the position of the A-V plate. See

A-V Plate Pictures
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006491.html

Exactly what engine mounting height will be the optimum depends on several variables:

--the particular propeller in use, and how it can perform as its mounting height it raised; some propellers work better submerged more fully and others work better running higher and in more aerated water;

--the shape of the engine gear case; the propeller operates behind the gear case bullet, and every manufacturer of outboard engines has different gear case shapes, often several even for the same engine model; the shape of the gear case affects the flow of water into the propeller and will also affect the engine mounting height that will work best;

--the shape of the hull; the hull form also affects water flow into the propeller, and all hulls are different; the weight carried and weight distribution also affect the draft at the transom and this affects engine mounting height; and, of course, how the hull and its transom height have been manufactured, as not every boat with a so-called "25-inch transom height" has exactly the same orientation of the transom to the actual water line of the actual boat at that particular boat's static trim or on-plane draft;

--the distance the engine is located behind the transom; if a set back bracket is used or if the engine bracket itself has some set back are additional variables on engine mounting height optimization.

Because so many variables affect the optimum engine mounting height, one cannot say that a particular engine mounting height will always be the best for all boats, engines, and propellers, but, as I mentioned earlier, there is quite some evidence that on Boston Whaler boats the optimum location is particularly likely to NOT be the lowest possible position. Many have found that engine mounting height of one-hole-up improves all-round performance.

cspaldi
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:39 am

jimh wrote:I have a few comments about the dealer swapping propellers instead of raising the engine:

--the replacement propeller the dealer provided at no additional cost was probably a less expensive propeller than the original one purchased in the engine re-power bundle, so the dealer took back some of the customer's value for himself.



Thanks for your thoughts, but this assumption is incorrect. The dealer removed a unblemished stainless Suzuki stamped prop and replaced it with an unblemished stainless Suzuki stamped prop - only difference appears to size.

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:59 pm

You seem to assume and infer the retail price of the propellers was identical. Are their prices identical?

cspaldi
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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby cspaldi » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:42 am

Yes, I assumed it likely that the two props would have close enough costs that pocketing the difference would not be a material motivation for the dealer. While I do not have the exact product numbers to compare, International Marine lists the Suzuki stainless prop size 3x15 1/4x 19 at $458 and the Suzuki stainless prop size 3x16x20 at $411 on its website. So it appears likely that the replacement prop is actually slightly more expensive than the original package prop.

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:58 am

Thanks for the further details on the propellers involved in the change. Yes, it looks very much like you got a more expensive propeller from the dealer when he changed to it. That's a bonus for you, and nice for your dealer to not nitpick the cost difference.

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Re: Dauntless 220 Re-power

Postby Marko888 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:34 pm

This has been a good read. I would consider the [Suzuki] DF200A if ever re-powering my Outrage Cuddy 22.

If this [220 DAUNTLESS] were mine, I would still look carefully at the engine mounting height, as suggested above. If the engine is too low, performance and economy is not yet optimized. A whaler with a engine mounted too low will experience more porpoising, a heavier handling feel, and more bow rise than an boat with engine height optimized. It will also require more speed to stay on plane.

I've lived through doing this bit of optimization, and it is truly very worthwhile.

Enjoy your new engine!
Mark
1984 Outrage Cuddy 22