Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Optimizing the performance of Boston Whaler boats
porthole
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Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby porthole » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:43 am

Outrage hulls tend to be a bit heavy for the size, probably more so with the 1999 / 2000 / 2001 models.
Anyone have any experience with Permatirms plates that mount on the anti-ventilation plate of the lower unit?

http://www.permatrims.com/
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

Acseatsri
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby Acseatsri » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:02 pm

I would go with trim tabs over the fin if cost isn't a problem. They also let you adjust the trim for uneven loading. I'd go with the biggest that the boat will accept, probably 12 x 12. Personally, I wouldn't own a boat without trim tabs.

If I were to use a fin, I believe there are some brands that don't require drilling holes in the lower unit. They are an effective alternative to tabs, but you won't be able to level the boat side to side.

porthole
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby porthole » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:27 pm

I have tabs. The Permatrims--this specific product--offers and claims a different benefit.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

jimh
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby jimh » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:47 am

Sorry, but I had never heard of this product until your mention of it.

Jefecinco
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby Jefecinco » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:03 am

Duane,

What do you want to accomplish with a Permatrim? I would think trim tabs would make the Permatrim redundant. If you need additional stern rise perhaps your tabs are undersized.
Butch

Acseatsri
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby Acseatsri » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:07 am

The Permatrim works exactly the same as a Doelfin and any other fin that you bolt to the lower unit. As someone else said, if you need more trim, your trim tabs are probably undersized. Many years ago I had a Doelfin and transom wedges on an 18' Outrage which provided an additional 4 degrees of negative trim to help bring the bow down. They function EXACTLY the same as trim tabs except that you can't level the boat.

It won't hurt anything, but you're still drilling holes in your lower unit. I think if you do more research, you'll find one that just clamps on rather than drilling holes.

porthole
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby porthole » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:11 pm

jimh wrote:Sorry, but I had never heard of this product until your mention of it.


A little more searching and I found this link :-)

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002948.html

Jefecinco wrote:What do you want to accomplish with a Permatrim? I would think trim tabs would make the Permatrim redundant. If you need additional stern rise perhaps your tabs are undersized.


I have an area of travel in a marked channel (that the locals refer to as a depression) that makes traveling at speed dicey at times. Because of the shallowness and the 'bottom suction' you get from trying to accelerate, I end up many times just idling through this area. Trim tabs don't have as much effect until you are up on plane. Even if the tabs are all the way down, that initial acceleration and trying to get out of the hole gets no assistance from the tabs. And, trim tabs add a lot of drag.

For the most part out on the open ocean, I find I use the tabs very little, usually only when the wind is kicking enough to list the boat over a bit.

Acseatsri wrote:The Permatrim works exactly the same as a Doelfin and any other fin that you bolt to the lower unit.


That is incorrect. The two specific items you mentioned are made different and work differently.

Acseatsri wrote:It won't hurt anything, but you're still drilling holes in your lower unit. I think if you do more research, you'll find one that just clamps on rather than drilling holes.


My query was for the permatrims item; they do not offer a clamp on version.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

jimh
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby jimh » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:09 pm

I can see why, in the 12-years since they were last mentioned, I completely forgot about them.

Acseatsri
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby Acseatsri » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:38 am

"That is incorrect. The two specific items you mentioned are made different and work differently."

Why do they work differently? Trim tabs exert lift on the transom, fins exert lift on the lower unit, which is attached to the transom. The fin is probably more effective than tabs if the tabs are undersized.

BTW, I'm with Jim on this one as far as drilling holes in my engine. On smaller boats fins work wonders, but so do trim tabs if sized properly.

jimh
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby jimh » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:05 pm

My general resistance to endorsement of foil appendages that mount to the anti-ventilation plate is not based on the notion that you have to drill a hole in the A-V plate to install them. My concern is the logic: if making the A-V plate larger always meant the boat would perform better, why haven't engine manufacturers increased the size of the A-V plate, or, at the least, offered an option for a larger A-V plate.

Now, to almost contradict my own position, I do observe that in the most recent models of the Evinrude E-TEC engine (G2 models) in the higher horsepower ranges, Evinrude has increased the size of the A-V plate and touts this as an improvement. The increase is not anything like the add-on foil attachments sold as after-market performance enhancements; the Evinrude A-V plate just grew modestly an inch or two longer longer compared to prior gear case designs.

The problem with testing an A-V plate after-market foil appendage add-on is that you typically DO have to drill some holes in the A-V plate to install it.

There are buyers of these products who install them and end up using them and speak positively about their influence on boat and engine handling, but I sometimes wonder how completely neutral and authentic some of those outcomes really are. After you drill a couple of holes in a otherwise perfect A-V plate, you might be more inclined to feel that adding the foil appendage was a great idea, and less inclined to tear it off, throw it away, and repair the A-V plate--that is just human nature.

porthole
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby porthole » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:12 pm

My guess as to why the engine folks don't modify the outboard has to do with every hull being different and they don't know what hull the outboard is going to hang on.

I put a Doel-fin on my Honda 50 powered 1983 15 CC. Didn't think it did anything so I took it off and filled the holes.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

DeeVee
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Re: Permatrims on an Outrage hull

Postby DeeVee » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:33 pm

I had a Permatrim on the 200 HP Suzuki engine that was installed on my Outrage 22 when I bought it. I kept it installed for a while, but removed it when I noticed that the anti-cavitation plate was cracking, I assume from the stress placed on it by the Permatrim. I took it off soon enough to be able to save the lower unit. I really did not notice any difference with it off.

My boat also has trim tabs, which I like and would recommend.

Doug Vazquez
1989 Outrage 22