New Yamaha VF 90

Optimizing the performance of Boston Whaler boats
El Rollo
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New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:57 pm

What are the thoughts of others on the newly released Yamaha VF90 outboard?

The VF90 specifications appear to be identical to the F90, including weight. I am sure there are significant differences, but to the average consumer it appears very similar to the F90. I assume the fuel mapping is one of the differences. I also see the gear ratio is 2.33:1 on the VF90 v. 2.15:1 on the F90

Did Yamaha do something similar with the VF90 as they did with the F70? Take an existing platform and build upon it?

DId Yamaha develop a four-valve-per-cylinder head on the engine to aid in developing additional horsepower like they did with the F70?

to bring a V-MAX 90 to market seems a bit unusual to me, especially with only a ten-percent-variance of labeled horsepower allowed.

Is there is a large market for a 99-HP outboard?

If my observations aren't intuitive or technical, my intent is simply to create some dialogue.

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Your announcement of the VF90 was the first I heard of it. What is it supposed to be?

sraab928
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby sraab928 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:47 pm

Scott
1971 Boston Whaler Outrage 21 - under restoration

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:53 pm

Thanks for the pointer to the press release about the V MAX SHO 90. Is that the same engine as the topic of this thread, the VF90? I don't see any model designation or nomenclature with VF90.

El Rollo
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:34 am

During the initial press release when this engine was brought to market there were banners and promotional images that listed it as the VF 90--which I don't find important. As for its actual and correct identity, I haven't a clue.

It is a new model in the V-max line: an In-line four-stroke 90-HP outboard. I am still curious as to continuouswave member feedback on this model outboard.

https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/

sraab928
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby sraab928 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:29 am

jimh wrote:Thanks for the pointer to the press release about the V MAX SHO 90. Is that the same engine as the topic of this thread, the VF90? I don't see any model designation or nomenclature with VF90.


I did find it called a VF90 on Yamaha's website - Hope this link works.

https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/utili ... arison?E48
Scott
1971 Boston Whaler Outrage 21 - under restoration

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:07 am

SCOTT--thanks for the link where Yamaha calls the V MAX SHO 90 the VF90. I think it is good to know the actual nomenclature so the engine can be called by its product designator.

I am not familiar with the Yamaha V-Max or V MAX line, but it appears to be a product line that is supposed to make boaters, particularly boater who are also anglers, feel special about their engine. I see this with Mercury and their ProXS designators. For some reason if you are just a boater you can be satisfied with the standard version of an outboard engine, but if you are some sort of species-specific angler you have a need to get a special version of the engine for your special, species-specific angling boat.

El Rollo
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:20 pm

jimh wrote: I see this with Mercury and their ProXS designators.


Evinrude has their H.O. models, Yamaha has their SHO models, and Suzuki has three models in their SS line (which is only a trim, cowling graphic, and paint change-up, with no mechanical changes).

With the exception of Suzuki, all three manufacturers Yamaha, Mercury, and Evinrude are offering some sort of 'performance oriented' model. Whether or not these motors are intended for species-specific anglers, with species-specific angling boats, they are a different offering.

My intent was to create some dialogue on the new offering from Yamaha. One thing that came to mind, was how well the VF90 would or wouldn't work on a classic Boston Whaler 17 Montauk. Since the Evinrude 90 E-TEC seems to be high on the list for a Montauk re-power, I wonder how the new Yamaha VF 90 would compare. It is a bit heavier, by approximately 30-lbs.

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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 pm

El Rollo wrote:...and Evinrude has their [H.O.] Models.

Generally Evinrude only uses the H.O. designator to differentiate between two engines of the same horsepower where one has a larger displacement. For example, Evinrude had a 200-HP E-TEC and a 200 H.O. E-TEC. The model called the 200-HP was based on a smaller displacement engine block, and the 200 H.O. was based on a larger displacement block.

This same convention was used at a 90-HP level, where the "90-HP" engine was a three-cylinder and the "90 H.O." was a four-cylinder, larger displacement. And again at the 60-HP level.

Evinrude does not generally adorn the "H.O." engines with special graphics, other than the "H.O." decals.

The explanation from Evinrude for "H.O." is generally "tuned for maximum performance." The most recent notation on their website says:

The Evinrude E-TEC H.O. series are performance engines to the max. Each engine is tuned for extra power and speed. If you like pushing limits in horsepower, speed and torque, then consider our High Output Series.


I think the 115-HP and 115 H.O. are the only models that share the same displacement. The 115 H.O. may have a water spray injection into the exhaust gas path that wil improve engine performance under certain condition, and the valve may be the distinguishing feature.

Evinrude does have a series of engines which are specific to a particular type of boat: the E-TEC Pontoon-series has been designed specifically for use on pontoon boats. The engines have features like different engine mounting stiffness in the rubber isolator, and generally have remote oil tanks instead of under-cowling tanks to permit easier access to filling the tank. The gear case might be different in gear ratio on some models; I have not really investigated that thoroughly.

El Rollo
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:01 pm

In my opinion most of these H.O., SHO, ProXS, or SS models, are a combination of a workaround and a marketing tactic.

Yes, they do feature FANCY graphics and cowling decals, some more wild than others. But I think the reasons some people select them in their quest for performance, is technically they can legally get away with a 200 HO/SHO/ProXS on a boat rated for 200 and perhaps get a couple more MPH than with a standard outboard of the same stated-horsepower, without having to illegally go over the rated maximum horsepower capacity with a 225 or 250--just an example.

Don't get me wrong--I see some offerings that make more sense than others, if you're into that sort of thing.

For instance, I would never hang a 320-lbs Evinrude 60 H.O. on my 15 foot Whaler. It's simply too much weight to justify a de-tuned-90 on the transom. My Yamaha F70 that I do have is basically a re-worked F60 to get the extra 10-HP and at 257-lbs makes much more sense. The two-cylinder Evinrude 60 E-TEC would have been an excellent choice as well.

I have an Evinrude 115 E-TEC on my 1988 Boston Whaler 18 Outrage that performs extremely well. For my application, I have no interest in the Evinrude 115 H.O. even if it was available in a 25-inch-shaft-length. Since I am on the west coast, where running full speed in the ocean is RARELY possible, I actually prefer the Evinrude 115 for its lightweight over another heavier outboard. I have two friends with identical 18 Outrage hulls, both powered by much heavier 150-HP engines, and both agree that mine rides much better than theirs in the rougher waters we have here.

Getting back on track: I am curious as to how the Yamaha VF90 will work out for people already satisfied with the standard Yamaha F90. If it does produce a better acceleration from a standing, better mid-range acceleration, and a couple more MPH at the cost of fuel efficiency, that may be enough to put some smiles on peoples faces--FANCY graphics and all.

sraab928
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby sraab928 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:25 am

As a Montauk owner currently powered with an E-TEC 90 I would seriously consider this VF90 for re-power when the time comes. It seems like a nice setup.
Scott
1971 Boston Whaler Outrage 21 - under restoration

Jefecinco
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:11 am

Rollo -- I don't believe there is any federal law prohibiting the use of an engine rated above the maximum rated horsepower label on a boat. Some states may have legal restrictions on the matter. The maximum rated HP labels on boats are more advisory than regulatory. Our 190 Montauk label rates the hull for a maximum of 135-HP, yet I could easily mount a 200-HP engine on the boat without violating any law known to me.
Butch

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 am

Here is a description written by Yamaha for the V MAX SHO series. I added some highlights to point out a few words and phrases:

The In-Line Four V MAX SHO four strokes have achieved the unthinkable—packing signature V MAX SHO hole shot and acceleration into streamlined designs. This powerful family now includes the all-new I-4 V MAX SHO 90, which packs the biggest punch of any 90-horse on the water. Overall, this series of 1.8- and 2.8-liter dynamos features a surprising tech package with 16 valves, single- or double-overhead cams and electronic fuel injection—for maximum efficiency and high performance. This makes the I-4 V MAX SHOs perfect for smaller bass, flats and bay boats and other performance hulls. With the option of a 25-inch shaft for all of our I-4 V MAX SHO outboards, anglers prowling big waters on multi-species, bay and flats boats have a competitive edge that runs deeper than ever.


Again, the marketing of the V MAX SHO seems specifically directed to anglers, and includes the proposition that if these anglers are in some sort of competition the use of these engines will create an advantage in angling. The metaphor "packs the biggest punch" again implies some sort of competition like a boxing match or maybe just a plain old fistfight.

When I read that sort of blather I see almost nothing that would affect my decision. Out of that entire paragraph, the only information that has any relevance to me is:

    • 1.8- and 2.8-liter [displacement]
    • I-4 [block design]
    • 16 valves [cylinder head design]
    • single- or double-overhead cams

The mention of the number of camshafts that will operate the valves actually is confusing. If sometimes only one camshaft is used, why would there also be another time when you needed two camshafts to do the same thing? And how would two be better (or worse) than one?

Also, I don't see anything in the technical information that suggests something special or unusual, other than perhaps having four valves per cylinder allowing the engine to do its work (pump air and fuel into and out of the cylinder) more easily. For me, it would be more informative if Yamaha wrote something like this:

"The V MAX SHO engines have more valves per cylinder compared to the standard engines, and this makes the V MAX SHO engine have [some specific improvement]...."

El Rollo
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:03 pm

Jefecinco - I'm sure you are right. I was kind of regurgitating what I have read about insurance companies denying a policy if the outboard exceeded the maximum horsepower rating of the boat in some states.

Funny Story: before I re-powered my 1988 Boston Whaler 15 with the Yamaha F70, I went in to our local Evinrude dealer here in Southern California to inquire about an E-TEC 75. The dealer was John's Custom Marine, a family-owned Evinrude-Johnson dealer for well over 30 years, very well known, and highly regarded. When I asked the owner Al Stoker about the idea of re-powering with the E-TEC 75 he [replied with] words to the effect of "I won't do it--that boat's only rated to 70-HP. You Whaler guys are always coming in here wanting to over-power those damn things."

I was laughing cause he pretty much snapped. I took it a bit further and said, "What if I purchase the motor from you and hang it myself and run all the cables and wiring, and you just hook it all up?"

Before I could complete the sentence he yelled and said, "Look, I just told you, I ain't gonna do it. I could lose my dealership license if Bombardier finds out I sold you a motor that was over-powered for that thing."

The motor would have been too heavy for my set-up, anyways, so he did me a favor.

I agree with Jim's observation of Yamaha's description. To perhaps better educate the consumer as to how they are creating the extra output would be nice. From what I read, improvement is through a four-valve-per-cylinder layout, gearing, and optimized engine tuning.

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:32 am

ROLLO--the reaction of your Evinrude dealer is interesting. He sounds old-school, but probably rightfully so. In today's society, a boat with a dealer-installed engine that exceeded the boat manufacturer's rating for maximum horsepower represents a risk for the dealer. There are already plenty of risks for a dealer trying to stay in business selling boats and engines, and I can see why that fellow did not feel like taking on any new risks.

I am sure there are good technical reasons why the Yamaha V MAX SHO 90 engine might put out a few more horsepower than their standard engine. Do you have any price data to compare the VF90 and the F90. I am curious how much more the VF90 will cost for all the special stuff it provides.

El Rollo
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby El Rollo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:05 am

Agree with you 100% Jim. I miss that dealership, even though they were a bit 'crusty' as times, their work was always top notch.
We have some boating trade-shows coming to our area in the coming weeks, I will try my best to get a price on the new Yamaha VMAX SHO 90 just out of curiosity.

87montauknewbie
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby 87montauknewbie » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am

I am following this thread. As my username states I recently bought a 1987 Montauk in September. It has an 1987 Evinrude 90-HP on the back, and the seller promised me it never left him stranded.

I have not yet been able to get the boat to run right and am definitely leaning towards re-powering. I know most people on this thread are E-TEC fans, but I am personally a Yamaha fan. Their reliability and ability to run quiet are big selling points for me.

This 90 Vmax SHO looks sweet, but, as others have mentioned, besides the gear ratio there seems to be little difference from the F90.

Also has anyone inquired on the price difference between the VF90 and F90?

Does anyone have data on the difference between the F115 and the V MAX SHO 115 which has been out for more than a year now?

Thanks.

jimh
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Re: New Yamaha VF 90

Postby jimh » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:34 pm

87montauknewbie wrote:...I have not yet been able to get the boat to run right...


If "not run right" means problems with the engine, consider starting a thread in REPAIRS and MODIFICATIONS to solicit advice about improving the engine's running characteristics.

Any modern 90-HP engine is probably a good choice for re-powering a Boston Whaler MONTAUK 17, but I would caution that total weight on the transom should be kept as low as possible, as the modern engines certainly weight more than older two-stroke-power-cycle classic engines.