OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Optimizing the performance of Boston Whaler boats
Newportme
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OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:53 am

Gents—I will be re-powering my Outrage 22 Whaler Drive with an E-TEC G2 225 H.O. The dealer has recommended an Evinrude RX4 15 x 18-pitch propeller and has carried that propeller in the quote.

I currently have a 1988 Evinrude 225 that used push the boat to 41 to 42 MPH with a 15-pitch Stiletto propeller.

I am interested in your thoughts (or experiences) if the RX4 18 pitch seems to be a good starting point. The gear ratio is 1.85/1 and the RPM range is 5400 to 6000

Thanks
Bruce

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Phil T
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Phil T » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:27 am

Bruce -

Pat Henahan, aka Homeside, just repowered his Revenge 22WT with the E-TEC 225 G2.

I have asked for him to share his prop/performance information
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1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

Newportme
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:48 am

Thanks Phil,

I have read most of JimH's reports but I'm not sure the RX4 props were available when he tested

Bruce

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Phil T
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Phil T » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 am

From Pat:

I’m not a real big technical type when it comes to specifics regarding propeller efficiency and things like that. I’m very satisfied with this prop. With My old 1985 Yamaha 225 HP with a 3 blade stainless prop would push my revenge 22 walk-through with a full load at about 41 mph give or take a little. This Evinrude E tech G2 225 HP Is a whole different animal. The boat just jumps out of the water. On the test runs with Lockmans we drop the boat in the Detroit River and the first run upriver against the current we did about 54 mpg at about 4500 RPMs and it still had plenty of pedal left. That was plenty good enough and plenty fast enough for me. --I laugh aloud--


I read it as RX4 15x18

patprop.jpg
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Newportme
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:58 pm

Gentlemen

Thanks for the quick response, that is the same model and pitch that was recommended for me.

Bruce

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Phil T
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Phil T » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:08 pm

Just in case you are wondering, I would have them rig the motor two holes up to start.

After testing, you can decide if you want to go 3 up. That can be done on the trailer with your kids helping.
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1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

Newportme
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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:51 pm

Phil,

The old motor is "all the way up" and I have asked Bamforth's to mount the new one the same. I have not experienced any negative affect of the higher mounting height with the old motor. The owner of Bamforth's assured me that the new G2 outboards would tolerate a higher mounting height than the old motors due to their design. Apparently the prop shaft is lower in relation to the motor, and they have lower cooling water pick up sites on the lower unit.
I'll report back some initial feedback after running it.

Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive Propeller

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:09 pm

Based on my experience with a REVENGE 22 Whaler Drive and 225 legacy E-TEC, I think an 18-pitch may be too high. The G2 and H.O. may be enough extra power to turn the 18, but the only way to tell is to try it.

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive Propeller

Postby El Rollo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:02 am

I would love to see pictures of your set up ! This sounds like a really nice set-up.

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive Propeller

Postby Newportme » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:32 am

Jim That was my thought and the dealer has told me that if the prop is not correct they will swap for different pitch at no cost ( assuming no prop damage).

El Rollo I have reached out to a friend and asked if he would help me with some before and after photo's after the install is completed.

Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:09 am

My remarks and photographs of the RX4 propeller on a E-TEC G2 225 and Revenge 22 are given at

http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2190

The air and water temperatures on the day of the sea trial were advantageous. The E-TEC was able to reach the lower end of the recommended engine speed range for full throttle.

Reported boat speeds were made without compensation for the river current of about 2-MPH.

The addition of a Whaler Drive will cause a higher load on the engine. That is what makes me speculate the 18-pitch might be a bit too much.

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Re: 22' outrage WD prop selection

Postby jimh » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Newportme wrote:...old motor is "all the way up”...


I find the all-the-way up description to be ambiguous. Without knowing the details of the mount your old engine, I can’t tell how many holes-up would be all-the-way up.

On my 22-foot hull with Whaler Drive the E-TEC engine has been mounted in both the lowest position and in the one-hole-up position. For my engine the highest mount position would be three-holes-up.

Where was your old engine mounted on the Whaler Drive?

What mounting position are you planning for the E-TEC G2 engine?

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:35 am

Jim--the old motor 1988 Evinrude 225 HP was mounted in the lowest hole available. It was mounted as high on the transom as I could mount it unless I added a jack plate. I do not have the old motor any longer so I can't count the mounting holes available.

I have requested that the new motor Evinrude G2 225 H.O. E225XHAG be mounted to the transom in the highest available position on the motor bracket. I think that the new motor has 1 more hole so the new motor would be 4 holes up? I dropped the boat off at the dealer yesterday, The dealer and I took careful measurements on both my boat, and on a boat that just had a new Evinrude 225 G2 H.O. installed. After taking our measurements the dealer concurred with my thought that the motor should be mounted in the highest position as well.

After I have run the boat I will post some performance data and hopefully a link to some pictures.

Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:50 am

The following is a cut and past from an earlier thread on the mounting height of my old outboard.

I will make an effort to clarify my statements. There are 4 holes in the upper mounts to my motor. My motor is now mounted in the lowest hole (all the way up). Before Saturday the motor was mounted in the second to the bottom hole (2 holes up?). The a/v plate is now 2.125" higher than the "flat spot" on the whaler drive. I was rounding my measurements, and did not take any measurements from the keel.

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 pm

Bruce—I can only understand engine mounting height in terms of number of units of 0.75-inch or holes the engine is raised above lowest mounting. I am not clear where the old was or new engine will be mounted.

If the E-TEC G2 allows for mounting four-holes-up from lowest position, I will be surprised if that works well on a Whaler Drive. The mounting height for a single engine on a Whaler Drive is already elevated compared to the typical notched-transom outboard engine mounting. Moving up three inches higher seems very high.

I am very interested to get a report from you on how the propeller holds with the elevated mounting height you are planning.

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:34 am

The old engine was mounted three-holes-up.

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:10 am

Bruce—thanks for the clarification on the engine mounting height you were using on the Outrage 22 Whaler Drive boat with the previous engine.

I don’t recall any prior reports on mounting a single engine on a Whaler Drive at three-holes-up position.

ASIDE: when I first got my Revenge 22 W-T Whaler Drive boat, I was advised by one fellow—a fellow considered to be an expert—that the Whaler Drive was designed for twin engines, a single engine on a Whaler Drive would not work well, and it was suggested that perhaps the Whaler Drive transom should be cut down with a center notch if I wanted a single engine to work properly. I rejected that advice and did not alter the transom. Eventually I raised the engine from lowest position to one-hole-up position. The A-V plate runs close to the water surface but not clear of it. Now hearing your experience, I am very surprised at the additional height you have been using.

One difference between an Outrage and a Revenge: the cabin fiberglass cap adds weight in the bow, so the static trim at the transom on a Revenge will be floating higher than on an Outrage.

Again, I will be eagerly looking forward to hearing more about the performance with the E-TEC G2 and the high mounting position (of four-holes-up).

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:16 am

This was a cut and paste from the old forum, same thread as the above cut and paste; the original thread was from 2011:
I made it out for testing/fishing yesterday. My new average top speed is 44=MPH (1 run with wind 1 against). There are no negative effects that I noticed yet. No ventilation or blowout of the prop during hard turns, there was no swell as I was on a lake. The cooling stream was strong, as Tom had mentioned, This change did not eliminate the porpoising but did lesson it to an extent.
I don't know if the higher top speed will result in any measurable efficiency gains but I'll take what I can get. The boat seems lighter or higher in the water at speed and suffers from no adverse handling that I have discovered thus far. Overall the change seems positive, but time will tell.


I continued to operate the boat with that same motor until June of last year. I use the boat on lakes and also in the Atlantic ocean off the coast of Portland Maine also in Casco bay. During the roughly six years, between that old post and when the motor began giving me trouble, I can still say that I experienced no ill effects of the mounting height. The top speed was closer to 42-MPH on average, the day I tested I was lightly loaded and it was cool dry day.

I am hoping that the new motor will tolerate the mounting height as well as the old one did. From what I am hearing this should be the case. I am eagerly waiting to try this new motor and will post some performance numbers after running the boat.

Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:48 am

Bruce--I think I have located the prior discussion you have mentioned several times and quoted from:

Outrage 22 Whaler Drive
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007463.html

When making reference to other material available on the website, it is much better to give the uniform resource locator or URL of the material when referencing it, as that will allow people to find the article referenced and read the article. Let me know if that is the correct article you have been quoting from, and I will edit your posts to include the URL.

In that prior discussion, I linked to this image of the Whaler Drive and outboard engine mounting on my boat:

Image

Note: the engine shown above is a c.1992 Evinrude, not my legacy E-TEC engine.

Using the dimensions given in that illustration, the A-V plate on my Evinrude 225 engine was 0.25-inch above the bottom of the Whaler Drive when mounted in the lowest position. Using information from your prior post, you mentioned that on your Whaler Drive a similar engine mounted in the three-holes-up position resulted in the A-V plate being 2.125-inch above the bottom of the Whaler Drive.

Comparing our measurements, your engine was 2.125 - 0.25 = 1.875-inches higher than my engine. The difference in mounting was three-holes or 3 x 0.75-inch or 2.25-inch. If we assume that the transom mounting holes were drilled the same on boat boats and the engine mounting bracket and engine shaft length were the same on both engine, then our measurements of the height of the A-V plate above the bottom of the Whaler Drive should have been different by 2.25-inch, but it appears they are different by only 1.875-inches. Somewhere a height difference of 0.375-inches has been lost, which we can attribute to measurement errors by either or both of us. I think we are quite close and in agreement. Your engine was three-holes-up and my engine was in the lowest position.

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:37 pm

Jim--that is the correct thread I was quoting. I admire your carefully measured and [annotated] photographs of your old engine mounting height. I will attempt to take some careful measurements and photos of my new G2 225 H.O. that may illustrate some of the differences between the mounting of these different motors, on a similar hull.

Perhaps some day this discussion will help someone out. I have always gotten good advise here and hope to "pay it forward"

Thanks
Bruce

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:39 pm

Ran the boat for the past few days. The Evinrude E-TEC G2 225 H.O. needs less propeller pitch. Right now the prop is an RX4 18" pitch.

The maximum speed the engine could accelerate to was 5310-RPM, and boat speed was 46.5-MPH. The boat was porpoising; when I trimmed down to stop porpoising, engine speed dropped to 5250-RPM and boat speed was 45.9-MPH. The boat was lightly loaded--just me, my cousin, and 60-gallons fuel.

At 3000-RPM boat speed was 22.7-MPH
At 4000-RPM boat speed was 34.8-MPH.

I didn't take any fuel flow numbers due to coming prop change.

With that being said, the engine was a blast to drive: acceleration was better than ever; and I loved almost everything else about the engine. I don' if I am a big a fan of trim--maybe I'll get used to it. The engine seems to trim up a little too much and I have to trim down to stop the boat porpoising.

I'm not sure the RX4 16" pitch will get me near 5800.

I would love comments or suggestions on new propeller selection.

Thanks
Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 am

If you can borrow one for testing, try a REBEL 17-pitch. You can see some performance data I collected when testing a legacy E-TEC 250 H.O. on my REVENGE 22 W-T Whaler Drive boat with a REBEL 17-pitch propeller at

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/refere ... 250HO.html

The top speed was 46-MPH and the engine accelerated to around 5,600-RPM (indicated on analog tachometer but later discovered to be more like 5400 on a digital tachometer).

The old rule of thumb on propeller pitch effect on engine speed was a change of 400-RPM for 2-inch pitch change.

As I expected, it looks like the 18-pitch aggressive RX4 propeller was too much for the Whaler Drive boat. Most dealers have no experience with a Whaler Drive boat. A Whaler Drive is not like a conventional set-back bracket. The Whaler Drive has a considerable buoyancy box that remains in the water when the boat is on plane. The effect is that the boat overall length is really two-feet longer with a Whaler Drive, so a 22-foot OUTRAGE hull with a Whaler Drive is more like a 24-foot hull.

The RX4 has variable vents, but I don't think that will help with a Whaler Drive boat. Propellers with vents are useful to help boats get on plane, but there does not seem to be any problem with acceleration to plane with the E-TEC G2. I think vented propellers are most useful on boats like Bass Boats, on which getting the hull onto plane can be helped with propeller venting. Once those bass boat hulls are on plane, they are running on a small pad on the hull, and they can use a propeller with a lot of pitch to develop fantastic top speeds, over 60-MPH or even higher. But the high pitch causes the acceleration to plane to be slow.

With a Whaler Drive boat, when the hull is on plane there is still much of the V-hull bottom and Whaler Drive bottom in the water, and unless there is a very high HP-to-weight ratio, you will never drive the hull to a speed fast enough to lift most of it out of the water.

Further, Whaler Drive boats are very easy to get on plane. The Whaler Drive suppresses the usual bow rise problem. A Whaler Drive boat glides onto plane.

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Phil T
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Phil T » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:16 am

From Bruce:

I took a couple comparable pictures to show the difference in the set up and rigging. The pictures of the old motor are during the derigging so some of the cables are messier than usual but the contrast is stark.

Old Mounting:

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I also took some pictures with the motor trimmed so that the A/V plate was parallel to the bottom of the whaler drive. In those photos I have a level with the top edge held tight to the bottom of the whaler drive with a floor jack. I took a picture showing the height of the A/V plate elevation above the hull 4.75” also a measurement to the leading edge of the gear case from the transom of the whaler drive 14.25”. And another from the transom of the whaler drive to the leading edge of the prop a little over 31.5”

Measurements:

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The picture of the mounting bolt pattern did not come out as good as I would have liked it is like this:

O
O
O
O bolt in this hole yes there are 5 holes the top hole in the picture is above the transom you can see light through it!
O

Mounting height:

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New Motor - Side view

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The motor was a pleasure to drive the DTS and power steering were incredible. Hole shot was amazing and I have the wrong prop ( swapping tomorrow ) to lower pitch. I can’t wait to get this dialed in, already 4 MPH faster and I think there is some room left. I also burned about half the fuel that I normally would on our 4 day camping /fishing trip. I did not take detailed measurements because of the prop swap.
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1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:43 pm

Phil--thank you for adding these pictures for me.

I just returned from the dealer. They did not have a REBEL 15-pitch or 17-pitch. I have a CYCLONE four-blade 15-pitch to try out.

Running the boat tomorrow will post initial numbers then--Bruce

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:31 am

The Cyclone 15-pitch propeller did not have enough pitch. Pushing the throttle toward wide open, the motor hit 6,000-RPM, boat speed was around 42-MPH, and I had more throttle to go--so I pulled back. Back to the dealer today to explore more options.

We did spend a nice day on Casco Bay and had a great 4th. I hope everyone else had a great day as well.

Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:47 am

The E-TEC G2 225 H.O. engine shown above is mounted three-holes-up on the Outrage 22 Whaler Drive boat.

The performance data reported so far

BOAT = Outrage 22 Whaler Drive, two adults, 60-gallons fuel

With Evinrude RX4 18-pitch:
5,310-RPM produced boat speed of 46.5-MPH, boat porpoising; engine trimmed out; calculated SLIP = 5
5,250-RPM produced boat speed of 45.9-MPH, no porpoising, engine trimmed in somewhat; calculated SLIP = 5

With Evinrude CYCLONE 15-pitch
6,000-RPM produced boat speed of 42-MPH; engine still had more throttle opening to go; calculated SLIP = 9

My comments: the low value for SLIP (5) indicated for the RX4 shows the mounting height is not too high for that propeller. The SLIP value for the CYCLONE (9) shows it is running a bit high, perhaps, but probably typical for aerated water behind a Whaler Drive.

Try a REBEL TBX 17-pitch (PN 763986) or 16-pitch RX4 (PN 177340)

Newportme
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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby Newportme » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:02 pm

Picked up a REBEL TBX 17-pitch yesterday at the dealer. The boat was more heavily loaded today approximately 60 gallons of fuel, and 4 passengers, versus the one passenger in the last testing. Two of the additional passengers were novice boaters and did not like the speed, so these are initial numbers. I will have more to follow. One run was made with wind and one against, the numbers below are the average, the wind was light and only made .1 MPH over with wind and .1MPH under the number against the wind.

Thanks to all that suggested this propeller I think this is the one. I am going to log some running time in all conditions before I do any more tweaking on the set up.

RPM 5650 boat speed 46
RPM 4000 Boat speed 32

Thanks again,
Bruce

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Re: OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive, E-TEC G2 225 H.O.

Postby jimh » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:48 pm

jimh wrote:If you can borrow one for testing, try a REBEL 17-pitch...


jimh wrote:Try a REBEL TBX 17-pitch (PN 763986)....


Newportme wrote:Picked up a REBEL TBX 17-pitch yesterday at the dealer....Thanks to all that suggested this propeller. I think this is the one.


I am glad to hear that my suggestion of a REBEL 17 worked well for your application on an OUTRAGE 22 Whaler Drive boat with an E-TEC G2 225 H.O. engine that was mounted three-holes-up from lowest position, and that at full throttle the engine accelerated to 5650-RPM and produced a boat speed of 46-MPH.