c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

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InVision
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c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Has a jackplate ever been installed on a c.2004 190 OUTRAGE or 190 NANTUCKET?

I have concerns about the engine mounting height and the bow riding too high.

[What are your] thoughts [about installing a jackplate on a c.2004 190 OUTRAGE in order to change the engine mounting height or to cause the bow to ride lower]?

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Divin'Ivan
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET

Postby Divin'Ivan » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:01 pm

[I] have not installed [a jackplate on my 190 OUTRAGE]. I have considered installing [an hydraulically operating engine setback and jack plate device called a Porta Bracket] on my 190 Outrage--but not [to change the height the bow rides] as you [ask about].

[If I did install a Porta Bracket the purpose would be to change engine mounting height and] mostly to be able to run in shallow waters in the Florida Keys.

[The Porta Bracket] is installed by Boston Whaler on their 270 Dauntless Pro Angler package.
Current boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET or 190 OUTRAGE: Jack plate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:20 am

InVision--I am not clear on what you expect to change in the performance of your 190 OUTRAGE if you install a jack plate.

When you mention the "bow riding too high", at what point in the boat's operation does this occur?

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Phil T
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Phil T » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:17 am

When requesting for a solution to an observed problem, it would be helpful to provide significant background details so we can offer suggestions.

What engine make and model is installed??
Engine height on the transom? (holes up?) See FAQ post on top of this forum section
Prop installed (make, model and size)
Gear load and location
Fuel load?
Location and weight of passengers aboard?
Weather and sea state?
Condition when bow rise is experienced? On transitioning from displacement to planing?
Describe boat speed, acceleration rate when condition occurs.

And finally, what have you tried (varied operation of engine, trim, shifting gear, passengers etc) to mitigate the problem that has not worked.
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1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

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InVision
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:50 am

The 190 Nantucket was updated with an ETEC G2 150. [I am in the process of] trying different props which seem to require different motor heights. [I] was thinking, if [the engine were moved onto] a jack plate, I could easily change the engine height.

Also, from what I have read the 6 to 8-inch set back helps the performance.

M

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Phil T » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:26 pm

A setback bracket will exacerbate the boat's tendency to porpoise, i.e. bow moves up and down. The direct benefit is making room in the splashwell.
A jackplate (raise and lower) will allow shallow running in bays, rivers, inlets etc by raising the motor.

Answers to the posted questions will help provide additional information.
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:29 pm

InVision wrote:...from what I have read the 6 to 8-inch set back helps the performance.


From what I have read, most times an owner goes to the trouble and expense of adding a jack plate to a boat, they never really demonstrate conclusive performance improvements, but since they spent so much money and effort adding the jack plate they talk themselves into believing it was a big improvement.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Phil T » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:06 pm

M -

Adding additional hardware prior to completing the engine rigging and prop selection is not advised.

I think I know what is going on. Let me take a wack at it.

With the repower you have not settled on a prop. In doing prop testing you notice the boat's bow attitude while accelerating and possibly when on plane at medium speeds (~low 20's).

In changing engines you have changed the weight bias of the boat. What were the dry weights of the old engine and the new engine? I am going to guess that the new engine is heavier. Possibly 50-100 lbs more. This is increasing the bow's tendency to rise in certain conditions.

Some propeller blade designs offer attributes that can reduce bow rise or exacerbate it. If you note an increase in bow rise, you should select a prop that has stern lifting attributes.

Consulting with a professional prop shop will allow you to test props that meet the needs of your engine (reach WOT rpm at full throttle with light load) and reduce the bow rise.

As for mounting heights, it is commonly known that ETEC G1 engines tolerate an higher than normal height, 3 or even 4 holes up. THere is limited data on G2 motors but 2 holes up is a good place to start. For prop testing, I would not change engine height.

What prop(s) have you tested so far? Have you run the RBX 4 blade ?
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Masbama
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Masbama » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:25 pm

My previous boat, a 1999 Dauntless 18, had a hydraulic jack plate. The boat was a bit stern heavy so it was a help while on plane because the boat rode better with the engine up high and trimmed down but then again it was a different hull. It also added 60 pounds to the stern.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:33 am

I have settled on a VIPER 18-pitch [which allows the E-TEC G2 150-HP engine to accelerate to] 5750-RPM at full throttle [and produces a boat speed of] 45-MPH.

The REBEL propellers I tried were all dogs on [accelerating to plane from a standing start].

A VIPER 17-pitch [let the E-TEC G2 150-HP engine accelerate to] 6100-RPM—in excess of the red line—and gave boat speed of 43-MPH.

A Viper 19-pitch was slow [to accelerate onto plane from a standing start] and at WOT let the engine run about 5500-RPM with 45-MPH boat speed.

[I] have not yet tried an RX4, cannot find one to try, and also by all calculations I would need a 17-pitch which they don't make. [I] read [reports from others that said there was a loss in boat speed of] 2 to 3-MPH at full-throttle—I am not interested in [a loss of boat speed].

I calibrated the Auto-trim and now the boat has much less [porposing or oscillation of the bow up and down while running at high planing speeds].

The bow is running a little higher than I like, but—all in all—[the bow position] it is getting much better.

I hope for the Viper 18-pitch [to let the engine acetate to] 5900-RPM [and produce a boat speed range of] 46 to 47-MPH [and calculate to] less than 2% SLIP.

My propeller guy says to get the engine mounting height correct, and then he will tune the propeller so engine RPM is roght; then cup and rake will be changed to get the bow positioned the best it can be.

I am raising motor one more hole.

If I could find a Hydrofoil that fits a E-TEC G2 then I would be very happy. The previous engine—a Mercury Optimax—had a stingray-brand fool; it helped tremendously.

Thanks for the comments on the jack plate. I am not going to pursue a jack plate anymore. I think the weight of a jack plate will just add to the [problem of bow rise].

M

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Phil T
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Phil T » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:42 am

While I understand you are ending your prop testing, I think your setup is not optimal. Your WOT speed is 5 mph under what you could be getting running solo.

What hole is the engine mounted? Adding a foil (in almost all cases) is an indicator the engine is mounted too low.

Tweaking a prop is an indicator it is not the right one.

Does your prop guy know much about G2's and Boston Whaler's specifically? I would have expected the Evinrude dealer to suggest the RX prop first since it is OEM and designed for the G2.

The recommendations I have read include starting with the RX4 in 19". Another brand is Mercury Enertia / Quicksilver Q3 in 14" x 19".

In the end, it's your boat and yours to do with as you see fit.
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InVision
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:53 am

At 2nd holes down.

[Please don’t invent new methods for describing engine mounting height. Describe engine mounting height in units of 0.75-inch or “hole” (as in the spacing distance between pre-drilled mounting holes) that the engine has been raised from the lowest position. All other methods just cause confusion, ambiguity, and make comparisons impossible.—jimh]

Even if [the E-TEC G2 engine] could [spin] a 19-pitch [propeller] to 6400-RPM, [the boat speed] would theoretically be 51-MPH.

[A propeller of] 18-pitch [on the E-TEC G2 turning] at 5900-RPM is only theoretically [going to produce a boat speed of] 47-MPH with a gear ratio in the engine of 2.17:1, and there is going to be prop SLIP.

A 19-pitch [propeller] is a dog [for acceleration unto plane from a standing start at full-throttle].

If [the engine gear ratio were] 1.87:1, then 50-MPH may be attainable.

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:01 pm

I am very surprised that you found the REBEL three-blade large blade area propeller to lack good acceleration for your application. The REBEL is used on larger boats with heavy loads, and typically excels at getting them on plane.

The REBEL is also very good for fuel economy.

Phil and I think alike. I wouldn’t buy a $600 propeller and turn it over to a “prop guy” to make it work right. I would find a stock propeller that runs right; then, if I wanted another 1-MPH, I would have the propeller balanced and tweaked for even blade geometry.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Phil T » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:02 pm

It is important to understand the propellers are not universal in performance across brands and even models due to different blade designs. This is why there are thousands of sizes.

A 19" Rebel is not the same as a 19" Enertia even with the same diameter. The blade designs are not the same.

With WOT RPM of 6000*, Gear ratio of 2.17*, slip of 5% and a target speed of 50-MPH**, the prop calculator comes back with 20" of pitch.

* per Evinrude website
** per performance report of 190 Outrage with Mercury 150 FourStroke.
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:11 pm

What is the most important characteristic for you to obtain?

From your comments, I get the impression that the fastest possible acceleration from a standing start onto plane may be the most important characteristic, followed by maximum top speed. Those two are usually mutually exclusive, that is, quick acceleration usually means giving up ultimate top speed.

When the discussion began I though bow rise was the most important characteristic to change. I am a bit confused now about where bow rise ranks in the list of attributes to have.

Maybe if you rank in order of importance the performance characteristics you want, we can get a better notion of what changes might help get them realized.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:19 pm

Phil T wrote:With WOT RPM of 6000*, Gear ratio of 2.17*, slip of 5% and a target speed of 50-MPH**, the prop calculator comes back with 20" of pitch.

* per Evinrude website
** per performance report of 190 Outrage with Mercury 150 FourStroke.


I tried two propeller calculators, and both [calculated boat speed to be] 49-MPH with those numbers.

[The E-TEC G2 150-HP engine] could possibly [accelerate to] 6000-RPM with a 15-pitch propeller, but there is no way it could [turn] a 20-pitch propeller [to 6,000-RPM]. My guess is [the E-TEC G2 150-HP engine] could accelerate to about] 5,100 to 5,200-RPM [turning a 20-pitch propeller], and [acceleration from standing start onto plane] would [not be very good].

Re the characteristics desired in order of priority:

1. Maximum boat speed of 47 to 48-MPH

2. Good [or fast acceleration onto plane from standing start]

3. Bow ride normal

Previous Motor..

Boat with Optimax 150hp and stingray hydrofoil.

44 MPH WOT - 5400 RPM. Stingray hydrofoil help to keep bow down and get on plane faster. No porpoising. The setup had a Mirage Plus 17P and 1.87 gear ratio.

M

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Jefecinco » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:55 am

A hydrofoil MAY help with acceleration from a standing stop. However, optimum engine mounting height and propeller selection can often render a hydrofoil unnecessary. I doubt a hydrofoil can help keep the bow lower. When the boat is on plane the hydrofoil should be virtually at the surface of the water or above it.

I believe highest boat speeds are accomplished when wetted surface is minimized. If the bow is lower the wetted surface is increased unless the stern/transom is somehow higher. As most small boats on full plane run with the chines on the surface it seems to me that getting the stern/ transom much higher may lead to some control difficulties.

Trim tabs may provide some additional control over stern/transom depth at WOT and provide a lower bow angle without any speed reduction. Certainly trim tabs would make a hydrofoil superfluous. Electric trim tabs add little weight, are easy to install and are relatively inexpensive.
Butch

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InVision
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:03 am

Hi Butch. Yes I have trim tabs.

Thanks

M

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Masbama » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:00 am

I think you are on the right track. Raising the engine as high as you can get away with and finding a stern lifting prop (four blade perhaps) coupled with trim tabs should get you where you want to be.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:28 am

I don’t think adding an anti-ventilation plate extension (or “foil”) to be a good remedy, particularly with an Evinrude E-TEC G2 engine. The gear case on the E-TEC G2 already has a larger than normal and extended anti-ventilation plate, so it would seem unlikely that a G2 would be a candidate for adding an even larger extension to the A-V plate.

Some dealers with experience with re-powering boats with the G2 engines have commented that they are using higher mounting heights with the G2 than they’ve typically employed with other engines.

Stern lift should come from the hull form; as the boat speed on plane increases, the hull creates more lift, and the hull rises out of the water—as much as it can given the weight being carried and where the weight is located.

Propellers that are described as having “stern lift” are usually propellers with little or no blade rake. On that basis a propeller with a lot of blade rake like the RX4 won’ be likely to be a “stern lift” propeller.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:34 am

If great top speed is the primary goal, stick to a three blade propeller; a four-blade propeller generally won’t produce as much boat speed as a three-blade.

Note in Boston Whaler performance test reports they equip the 190 OUTRAGE with a three-blade ENERTIA propeller.

Also, I do not see any notation that an A-V extension (“foil”) was added to the outboard engine.

Based on Boston Whaler test data I would not assume that changing to a four-blade propeller and adding an extension to the A-V plate would be mandatory to duplicate the performance reported by Boston Whaler.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby jimh » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:55 pm

All propeller calculators should calculate the same results when given the same data. Some calculators may use rounding to the nearest whole unit rather than show decimal values.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby fno » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am

I can't help to wonder why you [i.e., InVision] did not choose more horsepower when you had the chance. Taking your expectations into account and knowing that maximum speed and faster acceleration is an "either-or" situation at this stage of the game, you may have to settle for two different propellers for different uses, like straight fishing runs or waterskiing. My advice to prospective buyers of newer model Boston Whaler boats and or re-powering owners: maximize the HP to the fullest extent allowed on the data plate. Any less will be a disappointment for most buyers (but not all).

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:46 am

The 2004 Nantucket is rated at max 150hp.

M

Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby fno » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:40 pm

M--as I said or implied previously, you are now in a world of compromise. Pitch of the propeller, propeller height, jackplate, and--last but not least--a wing on the anti-ventilation plate are all band aids to your ultimate wants and needs. The fact that the boat in 2004 was rated for 150-HP and later upgraded to 200-HP in c.2008 was good guidance on what to do with your boat.

Conversing about over-powering would alter the course of this thread so I will say no more about it.

Keep in mind that raising your engine will gather more performance from various propellers in both acceleration and top speed. The downside will be how well these propellers keep their grip in the water during turns while on plane. Good luck with your search.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby flymo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:30 am

InVision wrote:The 2004 Nantucket is rated at max 150hp.

M


Sounds like the E-TEC G2 150 H.O. would be perfect for this situation. It weighs the same as the regular 150, and sidesteps any concerns about "overpowering." Maybe the dealer will let you trade up?

Barring that, raising the motor all the way (which I see you are planning) and experimenting to find the optimal prop is your best bet.

The G2 looks great on the hull - much better than the monster Merc.

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InVision
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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:06 am

I wanted a 150 HO. The deal on this display model ETEC 150 was $7K less. Anyway water under the bridge.

M

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby flymo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:09 am

That's a big chunk of change for sure. Have you raised the motor that last hole yet?

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:15 am

Had Heart Surgery. I will get back to it in a couple of weeks.

M

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby flymo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:58 am

I nominate you for the "best excuse for taking a break from the job" award!

FYI I did try a jack plate on my 15 and didn't think it did a lot for the ride. Yes, it let me raise the motor but the only major difference I noted was a lot more noise from the exhaust.

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:40 am

Yea. Don't really need anymore weight in back either.

M

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Masbama » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:17 pm

I hope you are recovering quickly. How is your Nantucket doing?

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby InVision » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:28 pm

Well it is still on dock boat lift which is good since Hurricane Michael decided to visit the panhandle. Tomorrow we will be taking her out and finalizing the motor height. May come up one more hole. I did put a couple of lead shot bags in anchor locker and she stop purposing. Going to see where the cavitation plate is running now. I really like the ETEC G2. Great mileage and plenty power. Once all geometry is as good as I can get it, then going to have the prop tuned this winter. RPMs still a little low at 5700.

Thanks

M

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Re: c.2004 190 NANTUCKET: Jackplate to Correct Bow Riding Too High

Postby Masbama » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 pm

Just checking in: have you fixed the [the bow riding too high]?

I hope all is well.