Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Electrical and electronic topics for small boats
Spc337
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Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:27 am

[Thread moved to SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL for discussion.]

Since I’m rewiring everything, I’m putting in a new bonding wire. My existing wire runs from the fuel tank to a bolt in the stern. On the outside of the boat, I can see what looks like the top of a screw where the bonding wire attached on the interior of the rear well. I’m guessing that this [1979—always use four digits for year] hull had a sintered bronze component that is no longer there now.

From what I’ve read, the manufacturer doesn’t do this now and instead connects the bonding system to the negative terminal on the engine battery. I’m guessing that is how I should reinstall the new bonding wire. But should I still connect to the bolt that’s below the water line or should I abandon that connection?
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Phil T » Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:10 pm

If you still have the bronze disc on the outside of the transom and it is in good condition, re-attach.

If not, remove disc. Seal screw hole and transom hole and relocate to battery.

You just need one.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:27 pm

[Revised slightly since initial posting]
The bonding circuit conductor should have green insulation. No current should flow on this conductor, which means nothing it connects to can have any other electrical connection. The metal fuel tank can be used as a common point for connecting metal fuel fills and vents, and then one conductor from the tank to the battery negative or overboard anode.

If the fuel tank had an electrical fluid tank sensor. That circuit should be isolated from the metal fuel tank.

For use of the battery negative as the bonding system ground to work the battery negative must be connected to the metal block of an outboard engine which has its own bonding system that ties all components of the engine together. The outboard engine gear case must be immersed in the water and its unpainted sacrificial anodes in contact with seawater.

The traditional method is use an isolated fuel system bonding. To do this, replace the missing anode on the transom. A silver-dollar-size bronze anode should be used.

The purpose of the bonding system anode is to NOT become sacrificial and wear away. For that reason a more-noble metal such as bronze is used. The most noble metal in the galvanic series is gold or silver, but their use as an anode is not likely.

See the galvanic series table at

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:03 am

I found a source for a sintered bronze disc.

Is it preferable to [connect] the [bonding] system to the disc or is it better practice to abandon that method and run to the [negative] battery terminal?
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Phil T » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:46 am

Please share your source for the bronze disc. Many owners would be interested.

My opinion is either one.

If you have the old system in place, try to keep it up.

If doing a re-wire, change the ground to the battery.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:24 am

The disc is for grounding the tank and fill collar while fueling on the water. Run the wire to those and the ground side of the battery as well. That way everything is covered.

I found an original disc on eBay about two years ago when I did my boat. It was new in package, but it was an old discontinued product that somebody had in back stock.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:34 am

Interconnecting the bonding ground to the engine ground may not be a great idea. That was not done in the original construction.

Since the bonding ground bronze disc is much more noble than the aluminum of the engine gear case and the zinc or magnesium in other alloy anodes, the bronze won’t affect (in a good way) the galvanic corrosion protection.

My own preference is to leave the two ground systems separate and isolated.

The bonding ground should never carry any current, while the battery negative circuit carries ALL the current. Interconnecting them seems to me to create the possibility for more harm than good.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:57 am

I suspect most of my fueling will be done on the trailer. But I’m sure the will be an occasional on the water stop too.

Looks like my wire connects to a machine screw on the inside of the rear well. If I install the disc, do I need to bring the wire to direct contact with the disc or will the connection via a stainless steel screw work just fine?

Thanks
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:11 am

Connecting via the through-hull screw fastener seems unusual. If it was the original installation it is a new method. As long as the electrical bond is good, that method of connection will be fine.

I assume the screw fastener head will be outboard and the inboard end will have a nut.

What is the hull thickness at the point of attachment?

You may need a rather long machine screw.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:40 am

jimh wrote:Interconnecting the bonding ground to the engine ground may not be a great idea. That was not done in the original construction.

Since the bonding ground bronze disc is much more noble than the aluminum of the engine gear case and the zinc or magnesium in other alloy anodes, the bronze won’t affect (in a good way) the galvanic corrosion protection.

My own preference is to leave the two ground systems separate and isolated.

The bonding ground should never carry any current, while the battery negative circuit carries ALL the current. Interconnecting them seems to me to create the possibility for more harm than good.


Jim, it is possible that the wiring on my tank was not done at the factory. But my fuel tank grounding was wired as I described above.

I believe this [wiring] is about [that is, is intended to prevenr] static electricity developing while filling. If [the fuel tank boning system] is wired only to the grounding disc and not included to the battery negative terminal, there is no ground to the tank or fill collar when fueling the boat while on the trailer.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:52 pm

Vance's Revenge wrote:...if [the fuel system bonding circuit] is wired only to the [transon anode] disc and not included to the [battery] negative terminal...there is no ground to the tank or fill collar when fueling the boat while on the trailer.


I don’t see if there were a connection of the fuel bonding system to the battery negative that the boat fuel filler becomes “grounded” while the boat is on the trailer.

Neither the car or trailer have a connection to ground because of the rubber tires. The boat battery negative is floated with respect to ground when the boat is in a trailer with rubber tires.

A billion people fill their cars with gasoline at a filling station without making an electrical connection to earth ground.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:50 pm

jimh wrote:I don’t see if there were a connection of the fuel bonding system to the battery negative that the boat fuel filler becomes “grounded” while the boat is on the trailer.

Neither the car or trailer have a connection to ground because of the rubber tires. The boat battery negative is floated with respect to ground when the boat is in a trailer with rubber tires.

A billion people fill the car with gasoline at a filling station without making an electrical connection to earth ground.


The fuel fill and fuel tank on a car is attached to the body and or frame which is grounded to the negative post on the battery in the car.

Grounding the boat's fuel tank and fill to the boats negative post on the battery is exactly the same as those cars billions of people are filling up.

If the nozzle is in contact with the fill during the process it is grounded to the boats battery exactly the same as a car.

That is why they have signs at the gas stations about static electricity asking you to touch the body of the car. This makes any spark that may occur away from the fill hose/fumes. Unfortunately that part is not possible with a fiberglass boat or Corvette.

I had an afterthought on this and came back to add. Just like in a car, the sending unit for the fuel gauge in our fuel tanks are grounded to the grounding buss. So that circuit does ground the tank to the boats battery and the bonding wire attached to the fuel tank completes that connection.
But, I personally would still add the larger ground/bonding wire to the batteries negative terminal.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:17 pm

The negative terminal of a car battery is completely floating from ground. There could any voltage to ground. That is why when a high voltage wire falls on a car it does not arc to ground—the car is completely insulated from ground.

The car at a filling station only gets grounded when the metal nozzle of the fuel pump is touched to the metal of the car fuel fill. The exact same will happen with the boat. The rest of the boat is non-conductive fiberglass.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:07 am

While I’m no expert in grounding vs bonding, I did want to correct one thing... the fuel sender itself may be grounded but that doesn’t come in contact with the tank directly due to the insulating gasket which makes a waterproof seal. Now the sender is in contact with the fuel so maybe that counts but probably worse if the tank is mostly empty and full of vapors..
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:36 am

Hi Spc 337,

[The topic of proper bonding wiring] gets complicated. [As I see it,] if you have an aluminum fuel tank with an electric sending unit, the tank is connected to the boat's negative post of the battery. When you bond your tank with the green bonding wire they are now connected.

Maybe the term grounded is the problem that were getting hung up on.

Follow this through; if the fuel tank is aluminum, the sending unit is grounded (in contact) to the body of the sender, which is screwed through the gasket to the aluminum tank. The screws are not insulated and ground (contact) the sending unit to the tank through the gasket. So the screws of the sender link the bonded gas tank to the boats grounding buss and therefore the negative side of the battery.

Jim is correct: similar to a car, the boat's battery is not grounded to the ground similar to a home or structure. That would be impractical, but if the fiberglass boat is in the water, it is making contact to the water through contact with the drive system, zincs and bronze disc if you have one. Steel and Aluminum boats are a different story. In either situation, the zincs are the sacrificial anode in the link.

Mechanic's use the term ground when you wire the negative wires to the negative side of the battery to vehicles body and frame so this gets confusing in marine applications. The negative side of the battery on a boat is in contact (grounded) to the water through the contacts I mentioned in the paragraph above.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:06 am

The electrical fuel tank sensor may be connected to the tank or may be insulated from the tank, depending on how it was installed.

The sender [may] not have a metal mounting plate, so any fasteners that pass through the sender non-conductive mounting plate that then fasten to the fuel tank will not create an electrical connection of the sender to the fuel tank.

There is often a separate return conductor for the sender precisely for just this reason, that is, to keep electrical current from passing via the tank itself.

Repeating for the third time: no electrical current should flow on the tank or on the bonding system, and that is why it was kept isolated from the boat battery.

In general, most classic-era Boston Whaler boats do NOT have an electrical fuel tank sender. So all the discussion that relates to how an electrical fuel tank sender might or might not be connected to the metal fuel tank really is not important to a discussion about a classic-era Boston Whaler boat. Note that the classic-era Boston Whaler boats are the boats that use the separate fuel system bonding with 8-AWG or 10-AWG green insulation conductors bonding all the metallic elements of the fuel system together and to a separate and isolated transom mounted underwater bronze electrode. No one needs an electrical engineer to know this. One needs to just look at what was in a classic-era Boston Whaler boat to know this.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:02 am

Having just screwed in my new sender yesterday, I feel pretty stupid not recognizing the screws making the direct connection!

I’m still thinking about the current that travels through the normal battery ground wires. I’m guessing I could connect the bonding wire to the battery terminal as I don’t think current would travel back across the binding wire.

I’ll have to check my pre-demo photos but I vaguely recall the prior setup had the bonding wire connecting to the ground bus under the console. I wonder if that were the case would current go to the battery or done the binding wire assuming there was good connectivity to the water. I sense I need an electrical engineer to help with that.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:46 am

Spc337 wrote:Having just screwed in my new sender yesterday, I feel pretty stupid not recognizing the screws making the direct connection!

I’m still thinking about the current that travels through the normal battery ground wires. I’m guessing I could connect the bonding wire to the battery terminal as I don’t think current would travel back across the binding wire.


You mention earlier that you have a 1979 [Boston Whaler] boat. Did this boat originally have an electric fuel tan level gauge?

In the end, you can connect any wire to anything you like. I am just trying to help you understand the preferred methods and to not be confused with nonsense about how the boat battery is at ground potential when the fiberglass boat is on a trailer at a retail fuel filling station.

The element involved at the fuel station that SHOULD be at ground potential is the metal nozzle on the fuel filler hose from the retail pump.

As for alleged signs posted a retail fuel stations that instruct you to touch your car while standing on the ground before fueling: I have never seen one. Please post a picture of one of these signs. Many people wear shoes with non-conductive soles, so touching the car or trailer or boat while standing on the ground is no guarantee of conductivity to ground.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:57 pm

Hi Jim,
I'm the one that mentioned the sign at the service stations. Maybe the sign is a California statute. I believe I saw it at a Costco filling station.

I don't have a picture of the sign but this is a copy of the information from their website:

Is there a risk of static electricity while fueling?

A:There is a small but real risk of static electricity sparking a gasoline vapor fire at any fuel station. To prevent a static discharge from igniting gasoline vapor, always touch your car with your bare hand to discharge any accumulated static energy. If you re-enter your car during refueling, you may accumulate another charge from your vehicle upholstery. Static may be discharged by touching the car or some other metal surface, away from the fill point, each time you exit your vehicle at a fuel station. The shock you feel is your protection!


When we "touch" the metal cap while removing it to insert the pump nozzle which then grounds on the nozzle to deal with static build up while filling the tank.

My point on the older rigging with the Green bond wire that made the loop between the fuel fill on our gunnel, the tank and the Bronze disc at the transom. Some of these boats had an electric gauge and some had the floor gauge.

On the older design whether it is intentional or not the aluminum tank is grounded to the battery if there is an electric gauge and sending unit. When they attached the green wire to the tank, the fill and the bronze disc are in fact now grounded to the boat battery because of the connection to their aluminum tank.

On newer boats the bronze disc was deleted, and the fill and tank are grounded to the negative terminal of the battery.

If the green wire is added to the negative side of the battery there is no difference from the newer boats tank and fill wiring other than the bronze disc being additional. This can be considered a back up if the bronze disc gets corroded there will still be a ground to the tank and fill because of the contact with the boat negative battery post, which is also connected to the engine and any zinc anodes. No electrical current should pull through that green wire from the negative side of the battery in this manner.

Technically the green wire is not supposed to go to the negative side of the battery terminal. But I did this so I know it is the negative/ground to the tank and not to use it as a grounding source in the future. I'm pretty sure my boat was rigged that way when I tore it down. But my tank was not original. If my boat had shore power I would not have used green.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:52 am

On newer cars there is no cap on the fuel inlet. The driver never touches the fuel inlet, nor are there any instructions to do so in the owner’s manual. The cap-less fuel filler has been around for about ten years.

On my 1990 Boston Whaler the conductor going to the anode is yellow and is not connected to the battery. On older boats the bonding circuit conductors were green. On my 1987 Boston Whaler boat the conductor going to the anode was green and was not connected to the battery. Neither of my boats had an electric fuel tank level sender.

The use of yellow for DC negative instead of black was done to avoid any confusion with AC wiring.

In the US National Electric Code (NEC) for AC wiring, black (or red or blue) is the hot conductor, white is neutral, and green or bare wire is earth. In IEC (Europe) AC wiring, brown is the hot conductor, blue is neutral or the cool conductor, and green-yellow is earth.

Boston Whaler boats left the factory without any battery installed. The dealer put in the battery. The dealer may have connected the bonding circuit to the battery following his own concept of the proper rigging.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:57 pm

Ok, so I’ve order the sintered bronze disk and trying to figure out how best to mount to the boat. From what I’ve understood, this should be in constant contact with the water which under power isn’t likely. That said, I removed the machine screw that was there and it is clearly not stainless steel. I’m not sure what it is but looking at dynaplate, they use a gold plated machine screw so now on the hunt for that but they are expensive, probably $20-30 for the screw, nuts and washer.

Makes me wonder if grounding to the battery is a better option.

Is there a better source for a gold plated machine screw or I’m I getting way down the excessive scale.... looks like the bonding wire wasn’t tinned so the ring connector to the screw in the hull was corroded. Not sure that sped up the tank failure but could have..
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:03 am

Gold plating the machine screw sounds excessive to me. A stainless steel screw ought to suffice.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:26 am

NON-CONDUCTIVE NATURE OF GASOLINE
Missing from the discussion to this point is the extraordinary non-conductive nature of gasoline. Gasoline flowing in rubber hoses can generate static electricity. Bonding the fuel filler to the fuel tank prevents a charge building up as the gasoline flows into the tank. The dispensing fuel hose metal nozzle is grounded to the fuel pump and thus to earth at the filling station. When the metal nozzle touches the metal filler on your fiberglass boat, the boat fuel system is then at earth potential or grounded. This happens before any gasoline flows.

SIDEBAR TOPIC ABOUT ADVICE GIVEN TO MOTORISTS IN CALIFORNIA AT CERTAIN RETAIL FUEL STATIONS
The risk described above in the quoted material from a retail store in California is that a person might walk some distance with very good insulation from earth by their shoes, approach the fuel filling inlet which has been introducing gasoline into the tank for some time long enough to create a mix of air and gasoline vapor near the fuel inlet that is combustible, and the person then touches the fuel filler handle and creates a spark when their body static electricity charge of thousands of volts is dissipated to the metal in an arc. That has NOTHING to do with what else the fuel tank on your fiberglass boat is bonded to, whether to the battery or its own underwater conductive anode. A person with a static charge is going to create that arc precisely because the fuel filler inlet is at earth potential (from contact with the metal nozzle) and that person is not at earth potential because their shoes have insulated them.

Citing a sign in California does not change anything about the boat fuel bonding system. It is really a distraction from the topic of fuel system bonding.

RISK OF CURRENT FLOW ON BONDING SYSTEM WITH ELECTRICAL FUEL TANK LEVEL GAUGES
As noted, if a metal fuel tank has a resistor tank level sender that is NOT electrically insulated from the metal tank and one side of the resistor is bonded to the tank and a conductor carries that circuit and thus the metal tank back to some gauge, then an electrical current will flow on that circuit when the electrical fuel gauge is in operation. In all electrical practice a protective ground circuit is required to NOT be included in any normal current flow, so the wiring I just described would not be correct practice. My impression is an electrical fuel tank level sender is usually isolated from the tank metal to avoid this problem and provides an isolated return circuit to the tank level electrical gauge that does not rely on current flowing on the tank or its bonding system.

I think my view must be correct because resistive fuel tank level senders can be used on plastic fuel tanks whose material is not electrically conductive.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:11 am

There is a lot to unpack on this topic. I have a metal tank and a resistive fuel sender. I don’t think it can be isolated from the tank due to the screws unless internally it maintains isolation. So do I bond to the bronze disk at the stern and keep it isolated, abandon the old system and bond to the groun terminal on the battery or do both?
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:51 pm

Hi SPC337,

SIDEBAR ON MEASURES TAKEN FOR USING A BOAT IN SALTWATER FOR BACK-UP
My Revenge is primarily for saltwater use, thus I have always rigged it with back-up in mind, such as back-up SONAR, back-up electronics, three batteries, and separation between engines, separate fuel systems, and separatewiring wherever possible. I have installed a battery in both front cabinets so their weight is forward and out of the way. In fact, the only part of my boat that is combined is the steering bar from the main to the kicker motor.

SUSCEPTIBILITY OF BRONZE TO CORROSION
The way the bronze disc feeds the bonding wire in the motor well makes [the bronze disk] highly susceptible to corrosion. [For this reason] I chose to utilize both the old system [that is, connecting the fuel bonding system to the dedicated transom anod]' and the new system [that is, connecting the fuel bonding system to the battery negative] by combining them. My thought at the time was if the the fuel tank is already grounded to the negative post on the battery by the fuel gauge sending unit, ,then why not make it complete and connect all four (bronze disc, fill neck, tank and negative battery) with the correct size marine wire?

Actually, on my boat there are five items connected. I grounded the aluminum [elbow] manifold I made in the fuel fill hose as well.

Vance
Last edited by Vance's Revenge on Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:43 pm

I’m not an electrical engineer so I don’t have the knowledge to make a clear decision.

But, I would think attaching the bonding wire to the battery directly (I.e from the fuel tank straight to the battery and not stopping at the ground [bus] in the console) would be a good precaution.

I can’t see current flowing through the bonding wire from the negative terminal. Maybe if I connected in the console, the shortest path or path of least resistance could have been the bonding wire which is what the previous setup had. Not sure if that contributed to the premature tank failure but couldn’t have helped.

SIDEBAR ON NEED FOR BACK-UP OF ENGINES, ELECTRONICS, SONAR, DUAL BATTERIES, AND SO ON
My boat will only be inshore so I’m less worried about multiple backups. I will have an auxiliary engine for a measure of safety. I’ve long thought about moving my battery and adding a dedicated house battery, but my mind went numb trying to figure out all the wiring and decided for my usage it wasn’t worth it.

At this point, I want a safe boat that works.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:38 am

Also see a similar discussion at

Bonding Circuit
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3898#p21952

Many illustrations are shown in the above article with the bonding anode on the transom being connected to a green bonding conductor

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:51 am

Thanks, I recall those photos. I’m going to check resistance with the machine screw attachment that currently exists. Even if that works, I don’t like the below-the-waterline full penetration of the hull,but I guess it’s no worse than any others and probably easier to seal.

My bonding wire exits the hull on the port side while all the earlier photos were starboard. Giving the rigging is all start board, I guess someone moved this and without rigging access they just drilled through the splash well and then through the hull. The previous wire wasn’t even marine grade/tinned wire. I could return it to the starboard side but not sure there is any advantage to doing so. The big question is if I stay with the machine screw approach of make the attachment to the bronze disk on the outside. Is there any approach to keeping the connection to the disk in good shape even in the water? Wondering if there is a grease that offers protection without degrading the conductivity.

My new bonding wire is 8awg per minimum standards but note that BW used 10awg. It’s probably excessive. I can’t help but think the highly discolored copper wire contributed to he corrosion on the tank.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:06 pm

Spc337--You posted pictures [which are NOT in this thread but in the thread mentioned in a post above that was another discussion on this same subject by the same participants and are deemed to NOT be anything similar to any known OEM installation by Boston Whaler].

My 1980 Revenge was wired exactly like yours, with clam shells and all, and the wire in my boat was not tinned either. I just assumed that this was standard marine wire back in 1980.

SIDEBAR ON LACK OF TINNED WIRE
None of the original wiring under my dash looked tinned either. Maybe it was automotive wire used for cost savings at the factory. For this reason I replaced all wire in the boat with marine wire with the exception of the wires to the port and starboard navigation lamps; and those will be changed when I replace the rub rail.

It looks to me that what you are calling a machine screw is the backside of the bronze disc grounding system, but your disc was either removed, or it corroded off and was painted over. It looks to be exactly the same post I had and the new replacement disc has now.

Because the connection is located in the engine splash well and easily susceptible to corrosion, I backed mine up by including the negative side of the battery in the circuit.

Vance

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:27 pm

That’s my direction too. I’m not sure how to clean up the machine screw. I do [not] think the screws that came with my disc will be long enough.

I read the proper screw is gold plated to resist corrosion. Sounds [excessive] but haven’t found a reasonable priced option.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Vance's Revenge » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:52 pm

If I were to do it again. I would delete the disc on the transom and wire to the negative side of the battery similar to newer boats. Lessen the chance of transom rot and corrosion. Save on expenses as well.

SIDEBAR ON HOW TO REDUCE CHANCE OF ROT IN WOOD EMBEDDED IN TRANSOM
To help battle the chances of transom rot I coated all holes in the transom with penetrating epoxy as a barrier to the wood and let it dry before installing the bolts and screws.

Vance

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:21 pm

You can connect anything you like on your boat. I am just trying to describe how Boston Whaler wired the boat when they built it.

I cannot recall seeing or hearing about a boat made by Boston Whaler in which the factory included an isolated transom electrode made from very noble metal and used as the fuel system bonding seawater connection, and then ALSO connected the isolated bonding circuit to the battery negative. The purpose of bonding circuits being isolated from circuits carrying power current is to keep all current off the bonding circuit.

It may be that in 1979 and 1980 Boston Whaler made boats with both transom anodes and battery negative connected to the fuel bonding system. But they certainly did not make boats in 1987 and 1990 like that--I owned two boats made in those years and the fuel bonding system is completely isolated.

Remember that Boston Whaler did not include a battery when they shipped the boat. The dealer installed the battery. It is quite possible that a dealer may have installed a connection between the battery and the isolated bonding system for the fuel tank, fuel filler, and fuel vent.

The isolated bonding transom electrode should not "corrode away" because it is more noble than the zinc, aluminum, and magnesium anodes that should be on the outboard engine. Those have to be corroded away first. That is how galvanic corrosion is controlled in boats.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:32 am

I can’t say how my boat came from the factory. The bonding wire may not have been original as the tank was replaced ten years before I purchased. They did a crap job in my opinion as evidenced by the 10 year life span, so it is highly likely they reused what was there. Much of the wiring was pure copper and corroded.

I think the question we are wrestling with has to do with the fact whaler changed their approach from bonding being isolated to grounding on a common terminal. I haven’t heard anyone say that doing both would cause a problem. If I missed something let me know.

I can go either route. Not sure who can give an expert marine electrical engineer answer.
Last edited by Spc337 on Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boston Whaler 1979 V-22 Outrage

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:56 pm

The preference for the fuel bonding system underwater anode to be on the starboard side of the transom is likely related to the tendency for Boston Whaler classic-era hulls to sit at rest with a slight list to starboard to facilitate the run off of water on deck to the cockpit sump on starboard. Boston Whaler classic-era larger hulls which would have always rigged with twin engines such as the classic Outrage 25 hull had cockpit sumps on both port and starboard.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:49 pm

There are now two long threads on the same topic with the same originator, I don’t see much point in plowing up the same ground over and over.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:06 pm

jimh wrote:There are now two long threads on the same topic with the same originator, I don’t see much point in plowing up the same ground over and over.


Thanks for your help.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Acseatsri » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:57 pm

Instead of trying to find an old design from 60-years ago, replace [the original circular bronze transom anode bonding system] disc with a 2 x 6 x 1/2-inch thick Guest Dynaplate . Defender sells these for $91.

One was installed on my 1993 23 Walkaround.

[Introduced an entirely new topic. This thread already has far too many sidebar topics. Please see the PM I sent you for advice on where to begin a discussion on the new topic you introduced--jimh]

That so much time was devoted to this mystery disc when an alternative is available and probably provides 100 times the protection than that of a bronze disc with the surface area not much more than a silver dollar is something I cannot believe.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby Spc337 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:48 pm

Glad you found a solution. Actually this discussion has been focused on the value of replacing vs just connecting to the battery. And then how to make the connection and where. I don’t like having the penetration below the water line seems many of the photos I’ve seen have the penetration above the water.

I found a disc, that was easy.
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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:55 pm

Phil T wrote:If you still have the bronze disc on the outside of the transom and it is in good condition, re-attach.

If not, remove disc. Seal screw hole and transom hole and relocate to battery.

You just need one.


This is my vote for best answer and most concise.

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Re: Reinstalling Bonding Wire

Postby jimh » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:52 am

Acseatsri wrote:Instead of trying to find an old design from 60-years ago...replace...disc with a 2 x 6 x 1/2-inch thick Guest Dynaplate.


I think the Guest Dynaplate has also been around at least 60-years. They are certainly nothing new in the field of underwater anodes NOT primarily intended to be sacrificial anodes and to be used for establishing an electrical connection to the sea. Their literature mentions use with LORAN-C, a navigation system that was popular in the 1960's.

Acseatsri wrote:Defender sells these for $91.


If pointing to a source, it is best to give hyperlink. I think you may be referring to this page of the DEFENDER.COM website which shows the GUEST DYNAPLATE Model 4006:

https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=28060

The price at DEFENDER.COM of the Model 4006 GUEST DYNAPLATE is $97.99. Two 3-inch-long mounting screws and nuts are included. One set is gold plated and the other is bronze. The gold-plated hardware is to be used for making the electrical connection to the Model 4006 Dynaplate. Apparently Dynaplate expects their device to be through bolted to the hull. The supplied 3-inch bolts will work with a hull thickness about 1.5-inches maximum. Whether or not this through-bolt mounting can be achieved on the transom of every Boston Whaler boat ever made is to be determined, possibly by future reports.

More information about the GUEST DYNAPLATE Model 4006 is available from the MARINCO website. MARINCO is now the corporate conglomerate that owns the former GUEST Marine company, and they continue to sell products with the GUEST branding. Their website information on the GUEST DYNAPLATE Model 4006 is at

https://www.marinco.com/en/4006

The installation instructions are available at

https://www.marinco.com/en/~/media/inriver/347067-31798.pdf

SIDEBAR ON THE DISCUSSION ITSELF
Acseatsri wrote:That so much time was devoted to this mystery disc ...is something I cannot believe.


In general, it is much preferred to just discuss the actual topic and not make the discussion itself a new topic for further discussion.

In regard to the content of the discussion almost none of the discussion was focused on locating a suitable replacement for the original anode. Your mention of the GUEST DYNAPLATE and what I have added here about the details of the device and where to buy it, are really the only definitive information in the thread about a replacement component. Thanks for mentioning the Guest Dynaplate Model 4006 and its availability at DEFENDER.COM.

Also, there was never any mystery about the anode itself. Again, the discussion was mostly in response to one participant's suggestions on how to connect the fuel tank bonding system to both an isolated anode and to the battery negative terminal--a suggestions I do not agree with, which I hope was made clear.