Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Electrical and electronic topics for small boats
InVision
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Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:08 am

Well we have already had battery trouble on our new boat. Ended up with two 24 size batteries so I am going to mount another battery box in console. At first going make it a manual connect extra battery. I am thinking about a dual battery switch, dock charging system and even a ACR system like "add a Battery".

Since we have not even splashed our new to us boat trying not to break the bank. The charging system was not charging so I have been trouble shooting it. After days of going thru the thing, new alternator (now I have a spare), New belt (now I have a spare) and now looking at an ignition switch which gets here later this week. Gees forgot how much fun old boats are :-).

Anyway would appreciate any 2 battery comments and recommendations.

M
Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:00 am

With any outboard engine that cannot be pull-started and won't run without a battery, having two batteries that can crank the engine is recommended. If the engine has a magneto ignition and you can pull-start it, then perhaps one battery will suffice. With a 19-foot boat, the engine probably doesn't have a pull-start cord, and I can't think of a c.2004 engine that can run without a battery connected, except an E-TEC or some older-style legacy engines.

What engine do you have?

If you have two batteries then a switch to choose between them and to parallel them is a must.

Management of charging current from the engine can be done manually with a switch that parallels the batteries. A voltage-sensitive relay will do that automatically for you. They are also called an automatic combiner relay or ACR.

A shore-power battery charger that is built-in on the boat is very handy, and will be more useful than having one external to the boat.

If I were starting from scratch, I would get the Blue Sea Systems model 7605 combined ACR and charger. That product will greatly simplify the wiring.

I wrote about the Model 7605 in an earlier article:

http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=297

I would use the 7605 and an appropriate batttery switch. A 5511e would be a good choice. Read more in these articles:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CDGO ... lbbbizOHr8


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Jefecinco
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby Jefecinco » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:49 am

For a quick, temporary fix you can buy a micro-battery to carry aboard. It's good only for jump starting. We always take one with us on the Sport 13 as there is just not enough room for another battery and I'm much to old to pull start the engine.

I'm a big fan of AGM batteries. I have no favorite brands but would avoid the Optima offerings. AGM batteries will do a better job of holding a charge between uses. I reckon you may have a fairly long winter layup.
Butch

Divin'Ivan
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby Divin'Ivan » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:20 pm

I installed the Blue Sea Systems Mini Add-A-Battery kit to my 2013 190 Outrage and I'm very happy with it.

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Current boat - 2018 270 Dauntless, Twin Mercury 225 Verado
Previous boat - 2013 190 Outrage, Mercury 150 EFI - SOLD

InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:45 am

I have the same-size Perko dual battery switch. I noticed that the negative original battery has a wire of 8 or 10-AWG that I think runs to the main ground bus. Do I need to have one of those running from the new second battery to that same bus? I am figuring I do.

Also I have five-foot AWG-4 red and black cables with factory ends. The original looks like it may be heavier wire, maybe 2-AWG, but can't read on the original wire.

Thanks for any help--M
Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:00 pm

In any configuration of more than one battery in a 12-Volt primary power system, the NEGATIVE terminals of all batteries in the 12-Volt system should be bonded together by conductors that can all carry the full current necessary. For example, if there is an outboard engine to be cranked over and started, and if the engine cables are made of 4-AWG, then the negative terminals of all the batteries should be connected together with a conductor of at least 4-AWG.

If the existing installation has a dedicated main or primary power negative bus bar, then the negative terminals of all the batteries in the 12-Volt system should be connected to the primary power negative bus with conductors that can handle the maximum current. If the existing single battery used 4-AWG, then use 4-AWG for the second battery.

jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:03 pm

Re "main ground bus" on fiberglass boats: I am not sure if you are describing a separate and dedicated ground bus, or if you are describing just the negative bus of the 12-Volt system. On a fiberglass hull boat there is typically no "ground" for the hull because it is not a conductor. However, there is a bonding system for all metallic elements of the fuel system such as filler inlets, fuel withdrawal plates and fittings, and even non-metallic tanks. This bonding system ties all the components of the fuel system together, and then generally connects them by a single lead to the 12-Volt negative primary or main power bus. On some older boats, typical on c.1980 Boston Whaler boats, there was a dedicated electrode on the transom that was used as the seawater ground connection. On newer boats the negative bus is usually used as the bonding system ground point. See my sketch below.

bondingSystemSketch.jpg
Bonding system and 12-Volt Negative Bus Connections
bondingSystemSketch.jpg (62.33 KiB) Viewed 12641 times

InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:54 pm

I guess I am totally lost here. Should I connect the negative batteries together? Or run an 8-AWG wire from second battery to the ground block?

190-Nantucket-Wiring-Diagram-Assembly-2004.jpg
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InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:36 pm

[This remark was composed in error, causing some confusion. It has been deleted, and so have the comments and clarifications about the error--jimh]
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InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Here is simple diagram.
simple-diagram.jpg
simple-diagram.jpg (13.2 KiB) Viewed 12533 times

I realize both batteries can not be charged at the same time. Switch says I can with from A to B but not to off while motor running.--M
Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:56 am

InVision wrote:Should I connect the negative batteries together? Or run an 8-AWG wire from second battery to the ground block?


Based on the factory wiring diagram for a single battery, it appears that the 12-Volt negative bus (which is called MAIN GROUND BUS in the drawing) will not carry any engine starting current. The 8-AWG conductor is insufficient to carry engine starting current, and it is also likely the size the negative bus is not appropriate to carry engine starting current.

Since you want to have two batteries available for engine starting, you MUST connect the negative terminals of the two batteries in common with a conductor that can carry the engine starting current. That conductor should be 2-AWG, based on the factory drawing showing that the cables carrying battery power to the engine are 2-AWG.

You won't have a real primary 12-Volt negative bus; the battery terminals themselves, connected together with a 2-AWG conductor, will serve as the primary 12-Volt negative bus. The 8-AWG conductor from one of the battery terminals to the bus marked in the drawing asMAIN GROUND BUS will bond that bus, now really the secondary 12-Volt negative bus, to the primary 12-Volt bus (the battery terminals).

Or, if you want--although not mandatory to have--you could install a new, much larger capacity, bus. To the new bus, which will be then the primary 12-Volt negative bus, you will connect the engine negative cable, the negative terminal of all batteries in the 12-Volt system, and the 8-AWG feed to the secondary bus (that is called MAIN GROUND BUS in the drawing). That is exactly what I drew in my sketch.

I have now described my recommendation in both a narrative and in a sketch. I am now out of ways to describe it, except perhaps to start taking pictures of the wiring--which I cannot do because I don't have any example to photograph. I hope that by words and by sketch I have communicated my recommendation.

jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:00 am

I recommend you proceed with extreme caution in your installation. The energy stored in a battery is considerable, and if you inadvertently connect the positive circuit and the negative circuit together, you can release an enormous amount of energy in a very short time--which is called a fire.

jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:05 am

InVision wrote:Here is simple diagram


Your pictorial sketch shows what I described in my narrative and schematic diagram; the negative terminals of the battery are bonded together. Use 2-AWG for that connection.

InVision wrote:I realize both batteries can not be charged at the same time.


No, that is not the case. If the switch is in the BOTH position, and if the engine is running, the charging current from the engine will be shared between the two batteries.

InVision wrote:Switch says I can with from A to B but not to off while motor running.


Actually, what the switch says can be seen in the drawing; the switch says: STOP ENGINES BEFORE SWITCHING "OFF'"

Perhaps you meant to say that you must not move the switch to OFF while the engine is running, but can move it from 1 to ALL to 2 or back.

In order to be able to move the switch among 1, ALL, and 2 positions and have the engine running, the switch must be a make-before-break action. I recommend you check the switch action with a continuity tester to verify that the switch you have actually has make-before-break action.

jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:41 pm

Getting back to my earlier comments about the difference between ground and negative circuits, if you look closely at the whole wiring diagram for the Boston Whaler 2004 190 NANTUCKET, you will see precisely what I showed in my sketch. There are several conductors in a BONDING system which tie together elements of the FUEL SYSTEM. In the Boston Whaler PDF file (see below for link), you can clearly see these conductors. They are identified as having GREEN insulation, associated with ground. They connect to the same elements as I diagramed in my sketch: the fuel tank and the filler. This circuitry appears in the drawing sector 2-A (lower right). (The wires in close proximity with PINK insulation are associated with the fuel tank resistive level sender, not the bonding circuit, and carry the fuel tank level sender signal to the tank level gauge display devices.)

As I mentioned earlier, if the boat does not have a dedicated submerged grounding electrode, the bonding system is then tied to the 12-Volt battery negative bus, and, indeed, that is exactly what occurs in the Boston Whaler 190 NANTUCKET drawing.

The confusion arises because in the factory's drawing they refer to the 12-Volt negative bus as MAIN GROUND BUS. The bus is really the 12-Volt negative bus for the HOUSE loads, and the bonding system is tied to it. The attachment to the sea occurs via the outboard engine. The negative circuit of the 12-Volt system going to the outboard engine is bonded to the powerhead of the engine. Other metallic components of the engine with exposed metal surfaces like the sacrificial anodes are in contact with the seawater. They provide the link of the boat's 12-Volt negative circuit to the "ground" or in this case the sea.
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190-Nantucket-Wiring-Diagram-Assembly-2004.pdf
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InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:54 pm

No plans to move switch while boat is running. I ordered the 2 AWG wire set and plan on hooking up like the Perko instructions say. I will just alternate which battery I run on sometimes. I also in the near future plan on putting a [shore-powered] two-bank 5-Ampere charger-maintainer so batteries will stay plugged-in while at dock. I had this same setup on our 2003 SeaRay. The SeaRay was six years old when I had to replace a battery.--M
Proud owner of 2004 Boston Whaler 190 Nantucket ! ;)

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jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:20 pm

Be careful working with big wire and big batteries. Triple check everything before actually connecting the batteries and using the switch.

jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:25 am

Re battery charging devices listed as maintainers: I have one of these on my test bench that I use to keep a big AGM 80-Ampere-hour cell at full charge. The important word is "keep." A low-current maintainer--the one I have is called a float charger and only delivers 1-Ampere--will be good for maintaining a big battery at full charge, but it may not be able to actually bring a big battery to full-charge. I have found that if the bench battery becomes discharged as a result of using it with some loads and doing some testing, the 1-Ampere maintainer just cannot bring it back to full charge--the load is too much and the terminal voltage at the battery never rises very much. I resort to getting out my car battery charger--a 10-Ampere charger--and letting it top off the battery. Then the maintainer can maintain it.

You really should look at the charger and ACR device I recommended to you earlier. The cost is not much more than a decent charger. The HUGE advantage of the Blue Sea Systems combination of charger and ACR is the great reduction in wiring necessary to add it to the electrical system. Again, if I were starting from scratch, as you are, I would give the Blue Sea Systems 7610 a very close look. See:

BLUE SEA SYSTEMS: Battery Charger and ACR Combined Unit
http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=297

InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:15 pm

If did not already have an extra charger left over from the SeaRay I would be considering the Blue Sea Systems 7605. I am going to install just the basic system for now. Battery, battery box, 2-AWG wire, and Perko switch were only $140.

I am not sure how to get 120-V AC dock power into the console without cutting a hole for cord or mount a connector.
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InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:18 pm

Well it is done. Basic dual battery and charger/maintainer for dock boat lift. Thank you for all the replies.

M

IMG_7562.JPG
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IMG_7563.JPG
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jimh
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby jimh » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:13 am

You did a nice job on the installation. Good work.

I just noticed that the action on the PERKO switch has the OFF position in the full-clockwise direction. That seems backwards to me. Devices that control electrical current usually are oriented so that full-counter-clockwise is the OFF position. On a rotary switch, you usually turn the knob clockwise to move to ON from OFF.

Maybe the guy who designed the PERKO switch was formerly a plumber and was accustomed to valves in plumbing that you turn clockwise to shut off flow.

For a comparison, the Blue Sea Systems and the BEP Marine battery switches have the opposite action from the PERKO--you turn them clockwise to go to ON from OFF. Compare at

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2627

I never noticed the PERKO switch has such an unusual action-direction.

InVision
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Re: Dual Battery Setup on 2004 Nantucket 190

Postby InVision » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:27 am

Same as original OEM Perko single switch that cam eon Boston Whaler.

M




original OEM switch.jpg
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