LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Electrical and electronic topics for small boats
jimh
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LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:34 am

As a replacement for the traditional lead-acid storage battery, there are many new battery technologies being developed and brought to market. Several of these are based on Lithium. Of the Lithium storage battery technologies, batteries are now available using a Lithium-Iron-Phosphate chemistry that have the favorable characteristic of higher energy storage per weight, while avoiding the problem of self-heating that is seen in other Lithium batteries. This technology has been around for a while, so it is not the absolute latest, cutting-edge, untested invention; if fact, some refer to it already as old-school.

A good article on Wikipedia explains the chemistry of the LiFePO or LiFePO4 battery. It discusses the advantages and disadvantages of LiFePO4 batteries compared to other chemistries. Inherent safety of the battery is often mentioned. This battery chemistry is not prone to the self-heating and thermal runaway problems seen in other chemistries using Lithium. Another interesting facet: the LiFePO4 material is a natural mineral compound; iron is, of course, abundant and low cost, and non-toxic.

The LiFePO battery would seem to be a possible choice for replacement of lead-acid batteries in marine applications. I made an attempt by searching to locate a suitable LiFePO battery that could be used to replace my Group-24 AGM battery. I could not find an equivalently rated battery in that size with LiFePO chemistry. I found some 40-Ah-rated LiFePO4 12-Volt batteries selling for about $235. Their peak current for short duration was rated 400-Amperes. That should start most outboard engines. I also found some more expensive LiFePO4 marine batteries that were $580 to $700, but again rated only to 400 to 500-Amperes maximum short duration current.

The general marketing of these more expensive LiFePO4 batteries as competitors to less expensive lead-acid batteries is with emphasis on the these advantages:

--perhaps ten times greater number of charge-discharge cycles possible (3,000 compared to 300);

--a significant reduction in weight (30-lbs compared to 80-lbs);

--a greater useable energy storage capacity for similar size (about 2:1);

--almost no drop in output voltage during discharge cycle;

--ability to tolerate very deep discharge without harm.

I am curious if any readers have experience with LiFePO batteries or may have purchased one for use in their boat. While their cost is greater than premium lead-acid AGM batteries, they appear to have several advantages that might be particularly useful in certain marine applications. For example, an electric trolling motor running from an LiFePO4 battery may be a very good application. A bow-mounted trolling motor with the battery close by would benefit from the significant weight reduction, the greater energy storage, and the ability to tolerate deep discharge-recharge cycling.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:55 am

The size and weight of a battery as a function of its energy storage are measured by volumetric density and gravimetric density, perhaps two terms not familiar to all boaters. Wikipeda compares the LiFePO4 battery to lead-acid batteries on these parameters:

Gravimetric energy density (higher is better)
Lead-acid = 30 to 40 W-h/kg
LiFePO4 = 90 to 130 W-h/kg

Volumetric energy density (higher is better)
Lead-acid = 60 to 75 W-h/ dm³
LiFePO4 = 220 to 330 W-h/dm³

( A dm³ is more familiarly called a 1-liter volume; W-h is 1-Watt for 1-hour.)

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby fno » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:20 pm

Lithium based batteries catch fire all the time and some burn with the intensity of magnesium. Not on my boat.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:11 am

Frank--you must have missed an important point of my first article about LiFePO4 batteries. Please re-read the first article in the thread. You are not making a proper distinction between various battery chemistries involving Lithium. The Lithium-Iron-Phosphate chemistry is not prone self-heating and to thermal runaway. It is much safer than other Lithium battery chemistries.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:04 pm

I came across a recently published article on LiFePO4 batteries. The article refers to them often with the acronym LFP. The article is quite detailed and offers a wealth of information on LiFePO4 batteries. See

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

The article includes a link to a demonstration of attempts to cause a LiFePO4 battery to explode or ignite in flames. The test is quite aggressive in its methods. First, a handgun fires several rounds into the battery case while it sits in some dry grasses. There is lot of smoke as acid is released but no flames. Next a dead short is placed across a fully-charged cell. Again, some smoke but no explosion, no flames. The battery supplies 1,800-Amperes into the short circuit.

Test three involves lighting a fire in a large barrel with some wood and accelerants. Once the fire is burning strongly, a LiFePO4 cell is tossed into the barrel. There is no explosion. Later the fire is extinguished and we see the charred case of the battery in the barrel. The fourth test puts the LiFePO4 battery into an oven chamber, and heats it to 85°C or 185°F. There is no sign of any damage; the battery terminal voltage is measured and is still at full-chage.

Next the battery is placed in some testing apparatus which drops it onto a steel plate from about a 1-meter height several times. The battery appears to absorb this shock testing without damage. After that a crush-test is conducted using a calibrated machine. The cell appears to survive this treatment, too. A following test uses large spikes to penetrate the battery case. This test causes some smoke and probably releases some acid.

The final test appears to be connecting a battery to an enormous 500-Ampere resistive load. The battery supplies current to the load for quite a while, then its terminal voltage is measured. The voltage remains at almost the initial full-charge voltage.

The demonstration is completely narrated in a Chinese language and all graphics on screen are in a Chinese font, so most viewers in the USA won't be able to understand what is being said or written, but the pictures tell most of the story. Watch the presentation at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQs7L5L ... e=youtu.be

If anyone has any evidence to support the claim that LiFePO4 batteries "catch fire all the time" please comment and give a cite to your source.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:20 am

Just when you thought it was safe to invest in LiFePO4 batteries, also sometimes referred to as LFP batteries, here comes some new technology start-up with something even better. That is "even better" in terms of better energy density and lower cost.

A company called BioSolar is promoting a new battery technology which will use their patent-pending technology, which they refer to with the descriptor "Super Cathode." The claimed advantages for the Super Cathode battery method are impressive. We compare with the LiFePO4 technology, which, until this new method appeared, looked to be quite an improvement itself compared to conventional lead-acid storage batteries.

ENERGY DENSITY

LiFePO4 = 72-Watt-hour / kilogram
SuperCathode = 459-Watt-hour / kilogram

COSTS

LiFePO4 = $403 / kW-h
SuperCathode = $54 (an estimate)

The SuperCathode battery has six times the energy density and its cost is only one-seventh of the LiFePO4 battery. Where do I get one? I don't think you can get one. The BioSolar company is just announcing their invention, and I don't believe they have any batteries for sale, nor are they likely to pursue actual manufacturing. I think they would like some big battery manufacturing companies to license their technology and bring to market a real battery that uses it. Read more at

http://www.biosolar.com/super_battery.php

If the BioSolar SuperCathode battery does make it to mass production and has the energy density and energy cost parameters that are stated by BioSolar, the founders of BioSolar should be very substantially compensated financially for their discovery, and the lead-acid storage battery market would quickly disintegrate.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Hoosier » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:04 pm

[The BioSolar SuperCathode Lithium Ion battery if ever made] could be great for trolling motor and house batteries. It'd be nice to be able to anchor out for a couple of days without having to run a generator.
1978 Outrage V20 with 2004 Suzuki DF-115. 1992 23 Walkaround with two 2010 Yamaha F-150s.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby knothead » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:09 pm

I recently read an article on the website "Watts Up With That" that discusses the proposed [SuperCathode Lithium Ion] battery and BioSolar. I scrolled through the comments, some of which were written by people far smarter than me (kind of like this website), and concluded that the battery may be "a pie in the sky" deal to help pump up the stock price of BioSolar, which has fallen substantially.

I wish and hope that this battery technology would work, as it would mean a great deal to the future of stored electricity.

Hope it warms up up there.

regards---knothead

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:33 am

I browsed the "WhatsUpWithThat" website, and found it interesting. As I mentioned in my article, there are no SuperCathode batteries from BioSolar and they do not seem likely to ever make one.

There are real LiFePO4 batteries available to purchase, and they do seem to have advantages compared to existing batteries.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Hoosier » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:33 pm

Here's an update: I just finished a boat trip to the North Channel with the BWGLCC ( see http://continuouswave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3674) and at the overnight stop in Killarney, Ontario my house and starboard starting battery failed. Since we were at a marina I had connected the battery to shore power with a (kinda) smart battery maintainer. In the morning the entire house electrical system was dead and the charger's "Bad Battery" light was on.

One of the members of the group had a RELION BR 50 LiFePO4 12-Volt battery that he was willing to lend me. We pulled the bad lead acid battery, cleaned up some crappy wiring, and installed the RELION BR50 battery. I then proceeded to complete the 2018 BWGLCC North Channel cruise without a hiccup. The battery supported the whole house electrical load for two nights at anchorage and started the starboard 2010 Yamaha F150 immediately every time.

After returning to Michigan I stopped in at the RELION dealer in Lansing and discussed the RELION batteries. He had checked with the manufacturer and they do not recommend the BR50 as a starting battery. They have a new dual purpose 50-series battery coming out later this year that will fill both the starting and deep cycle roles.
1978 Outrage V20 with 2004 Suzuki DF-115. 1992 23 Walkaround with two 2010 Yamaha F-150s.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Jefecinco » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:50 am

Dave--I call that a very positive endorsement. Perhaps a RELION would be a good replacement for the old lead-acid battery on our old Sport 13. The 13 gets little use and weight aft is undesirable. If the self-discharge rate is equal, similar, or better than a typical AGM that would be pretty irresistible.

I'll have to look for a dealer in the Gulf Shores area. We moved here this Spring. We're on the GC-IWW sometimes called Portage Creek.
Butch

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Jefecinco » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:00 am

The closest Relion dealer to Gulf Shores, AL is located in Orange, TX. I guess I'll stick with AGM batteries for now.
Butch

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:06 am

I have been doing some research on LiFEPO4 batteries for RV use.
BattleBorn and LiFeBlue are two popular suppliers.

    --Neither company recommend use as starting batteries.
    --The batteries are impressive both in performance and price.
    --Typical price for a 100amp hour battery is $900+

The batteries are typically compared to conventional flooded lead-acid, AGM, or gel-electrolyte batteries for discharge limits. For example, a 100-Ampere-hour conventional battery is recommended to be discharged no more than 50%, essentially a 50-Ah rating.

LiFEPO4 batteries can be discharged 80 to 100%, so an effective capacity of 80 to 100 AH.

LiFEPO4 claim of 3000 to 5000 discharge-recharge cycles is very impressive.

The above mentioned suppliers build batteries with internal battery monitoring systems or BMS, which offer protection to the battery against several parameters. LiFeBlue also includes built in Bluetooth monitoring capability.

Although I am planning on a LiFEPO4 system of 400 to 600-Ah for our RV, I would not consider the batteries for my boats: too pricey for the gain, unless I planned on spending days on the open water with no power source.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:16 am

That website linked above is no longer operating, but the article--I think it is the same article--can now be found here:

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

[Thank you; I updated the original article to have the new link.--jimh]
Thanks,
Duane
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Didien » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:34 am

To bring this thread back around, here are my comments.

A LiFePO4 battery has some real advantages. If the cost were a close call, then I would choose them over lead-acid. However, as people have pointed out, they are (at the moment) several times more expensive, and I suspect that in reality, they won't really last all that much longer than lead-acid batteries. In marine applications, one of the oft-overlooked advantages of LiFePO4 is the absence of hydrogen gas generation (as with lead-acid), meaning they're suitably for use in small sealed spaces, which could be of particular interest to small power boats and RIBs.

My advice: go for a good quality, maintenance-free sealed lead-acid battery. For example, get two Lifeline GPL31-T batteries 105-Ah each. They are genuinely what I would use if it were my boat to replace your current setup. Get a decent charger, and low-voltage disconnects where necessary to ensure you don't unduly bugger them up, then enjoy the boat. If you really want to take the extra step to get better reliability and longer life of the battery system, increase the capacity a bit; just put some more 31-T's in parallel. The more shallow the discharge of a lead-acid battery the longer it will last.

It's worth saying that many go for an even cheaper option of going for Trojan T-105 (6-Volt) flooded lead-acid batteries. From reports they're pretty rock solid and reasonably cheap to replace when it comes round to it. After all, all batteries are consumables and WILL need replacing at some point. These will need maintenance--electrolyte top-up.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:51 pm

Didien wrote:A LiFePO4 battery has some real advantages. If the cost were a close call, then I would choose them over lead-acid. However, as people have pointed out, they are (at the moment) several times more expensive, and I suspect that in reality, they won't really last all that much longer than lead-acid batteries. In marine applications, one of the oft-overlooked advantages of LiFePO4 is the absence of hydrogen gas generation (as with lead-acid), meaning they're suitably for use in small sealed spaces, which could be of particular interest to small power boats and RIBs.



LiFEPO4's are advertised as 10-15 years service or 3000-5000 cycles. Pricing for a typical 12 volt 100 Amp hour battery is about $950. Their advantage or use is not practical for our power boat applications.

Where they shine is with renewable energy and or inverter applications. When used that way and taking the 3000-5000 cycle life expectancy and the up to 100% SOD (state of discharge) the LiFEPO4's come out less expensive for a given amount of stored energy. Probably half the cost, along with 3-5 times the life expectancy and at less then half the weight (29 pounds).

Along with that, the 3 main suppliers all say the batteries are not suited for engine starting applications.

Didien wrote:It's worth saying that many go for an even cheaper option of going for Trojan T-105 (6-Volt) flooded lead-acid batteries. From reports (on here) they're pretty rock solid and reasonably cheap to replace when it comes round to it. After all, all batteries are consumables and WILL need replacing at some point. These will need maintenance--electrolyte top-up.


On smaller boats I would stick with 12 volt batteries and AGM's or Gels.

6 volt just adds complexity and expense.

My small boats all had some type of sealed lead acid battery, mostly AGM's (all 12 volt)
My big boats (as well as the many I crewed on) all had flooded lead acid batteries. (all 12 volts, but some boats had 24 or 36 volt systems)

My RV's, I've tried them all, flooded-cell lead-acid, sealed, 6-Volt, and now LiFEPO4's.

I'm using six 100-Ampere-rour rated LiFEPO4 batteries with a 3,000-Watt hybrid inverter and it will soon be supplemented with about 1800 watts of SOLAR. For that application the new technology shines bright.

I went from four AGM batteries at (approximately) 100-Ampere-hour each, which at 50-percent discharge rating gives me 200 useable Amperes at 300-lbs/

Six LiFEPO4 batteries at 100-Ampere-hour at a nominal 80-percent discharge rate gets me 480 useable Amperes (up to 600) at 174-lbs and three to five-times the life expectancy.
Thanks,
Duane
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Don SSDD
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Don SSDD » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:31 am

ASPIN KEMP & ASSOCIATES is a company in Prince Edward Island that does large marine hybrid power, windmill, and solar storage systems. They are working with several different types of lithium batteries and say there are many batteries in the experimental stages for commercial and consumer. Their marine hybrid power is for tugs, plus they were involved in a new build hybrid offshore oil drill rig power system. Significant fuels savings with marine hybrid and loads of torque all the time. They produce significant electricity off the anchor chain system on the drill rig which is then stored in batteries and they have large banks of capacitors as part of the system.

From what I have seen them working on and the progress in battery technology over the last 10 years--just look at the change in your mobile telephone battery in the last 10 years--I wouldn't be surprised to see battery technology improve so we can be using automobiles and outboards powered by electricity within the next 10 years. My lead acid batteries may last that long, thus not much advantage buying this new stuff now, but wait until it needs replacing and we'll have some really nice new stuff available.

Maybe we'll have a small 25-HP gasoline engine (running once in a while at full or optimum rpm) to charge our super light storage batteries and an electric motor running our propeller. Replacing our current 150-HP outboard that only uses peak power a small percentage of the time and is running and burning fuel all the time.

The key to all this is a better battery that has a large capacity, discharges slowly, charges fast, and is lightweight. I think that will happen sooner than we think, but I've been wrong before.

http://www.aka-group.com/

Don
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:29 am

Regarding re-chargeable storage batteries: I bumped into a knowledgeable fellow recently who worked for a major automobile manufacturer on their in-production electric vehicle. He said that the OEM supplier of the battery had engineered it for a service life of 25-years. Of course, the car maker did not offer a 25-year warranty on the battery. But knowing that the OEM supplier felt his product was sufficiently well made to last 25-years gave me more confidence about buying one of the vehicles.

Other than the requirement for light weight for marine propulsion use, just about all the desired characteristics for a re-chargeable storage battery are the same across all applications. Use in marine propulsion will be a small market. Use in energy storage for general utility and for vehicle propulsion will drive battery development.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby Don SSDD » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:45 am

The bulk of autos sold with hybrid technology and the one that has been around the longest is the Toyota Prius. I believe when they came out they had a 7 year warranty on the batteries and I think they have outlasted that by say double. I would also hope that the battery made today for the Prius will be lasting longer than the one made when they originally came out about 20 years ago.
1986 Outrage 18 with 2001 Honda 130 HP
Former Owner 1991 Guardian 19 with 1994 Evinrude V4 140HP
Former owner 1987 Montauk with 1998 Mercury 90HP
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:13 pm

A vendor supplying LiFePO batteries has listed a 12-Volt 80-Ampere-hour Lithium Iron-Phosphate battery for $1,099. See

https://www.emarineinc.com/RELiON-RB80- ... O4-Battery

for more details about this Lithium ion battery. The battery weight is only 25-lbs, which is very light weight for an 80-Ampere-hour battery. The size is compact: 12 x 6.6 x 8.6-inches, making this suitable for replacement of Group-24 batteries. Of course, at this price, you could buy five conventional lead-acid batteries with similar ratings.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby djahncke » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:07 pm

Jim--keep in mind when your are comparing LiFePO to Lead Acid batteries that Ampere-hour ratings do not compare directly. You should not take a Lead Acid battery below 50% state-of-charge or you will damage it. A LiFePO battery can be taking down to almost zero without damage. So you need a 160 Ampere-hour Lead Acid battery to give the same useful capacity as a 80 Ampere-hour LiFePO. I don't recall seeing any group 24 lead acid batteries rated at 160 Ampere-hour. With a LiFePO battery you are paying for much lighter weight and more capacity in a smaller space.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:19 pm

With LiFEPo4 batteries the manufacturers still do not recommend them for starting batteries.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:46 pm

PORT'--The LiFePO battery I mentioned above, MODEL RB80, has a specification sheet. See

https://www.emarineinc.com/Shared/pdf/R ... _Sheet.pdf

I note that under the DISCHARGE SPECIFICATIONS, the PEAK DISCHARGE CURRENT is to be limited to 160-Amperes.

In starting a large outboard engine, the peak starting current could be more than 160-Amperes, but I suspect the duration would not exceed two or three seconds. I don't know if a current in excess of the rated peak discharge current, say 250-Amperes when the limit was to be 160-Amperes, that lasted for a matter of a few seconds would cause damage to the battery.

I did not see an explicit statement that the battery must not be used for engine starting.

DON--the specification sheet includes a chart that compares the Ampere-hour capacity of the LiFePO battery and a lead-acid AGM. The only rate of discharge where the LiFePO has an advantage is at very low current loads. See the second page, lower right graph.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:55 pm

From the horse's mouth (RELiON's anyway).My query:

Duane's email wrote:Hello, I'm comparing several different LiFEPO4 100AH battery manufacturers. Others I have looked into have a disclaimer about being a non engine starting battery. Is there any problems with using Relion batteries for engine start? Thanks, Duane


vendor wrote:Duane--We received your inquiry, thanks for reaching out.

ReLion’s batteries are (Deep Cycle) based. They are not designed to be starting batteries. The one exception is our 12VRB100HP battery which we use in Marine applications. Typically we see it used in Bass boats/shallow bottom boats as a dual purpose cranking/house battery option. It is being used by many Pro anglers, guides and heavy users.

I will put the ReLion brand up against anybody in the emerging lithium iron phosphate market.

The RB100 (trolling) in marine is on a non-advertised sale right now through the end of the year. At $1,050.00, it is a great buy down from $1,271.95.

See the various attachments to help you with your research.


Thanks, Brad
Thanks,
Duane
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:59 pm

On average pricing of $900 to $1200 for each battery, I would be leery about using them outside their respective design criteria.

That said, I did get the OK from BattleBorn Batteries to use my array for starting my Onan 8KW diesel genset.
Their comment was 600 AH of battery with the tremendous instant surge capability would be a non concern for my small generator.
Last edited by porthole on Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:36 am

The alternative RELiON battery mentioned as being appropriate for engine starting is the RB100HP, a 12-Volt 100-Ampere-hour battery. See details at

https://www.emarineinc.com/RELiON-RB100 ... O4-Battery

The MSRP (shown on the vendor website linked above) is $1,317--that is quite an investment in a battery. The sale-price of only $1,050 sounds like a substantial discount.

The specification sheet for the RB100HP shows the maximum peak discharge current is rated at 800-Amperes. That ought to be able to crank over just about any outboard engine.

I was just getting accustomed to boat batteries that cost $250, and I am reluctant to move up to $1,000 boat batteries, at least for my present usage.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:09 am

I still do not see on this new battery you linked to where it says it can be used as a starting battery.

Something to keep in mind, and I'm sure this is not that important in the marine environment. Most of these high tech new age LiFEPO4's batteries have a built in BMS, battery management system. Most of them disconnect charging at 32 or 25 degrees F.

These batteries really shine in the renewable energy market, feeding inverters being a push.

I am using six 100AH LiFEPO4's to supply a 3000 watt hybrid pure sine inverter.

They can supply a tremendous amount of energy for their size and they can absorb a high charge rate.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:22 am

porthole wrote:I still do not see on this new battery you linked to where it says it can be used as a starting battery.


The battery I linked to--RELiON RB100HP--is not a "new" battery in the discussion. This battery was introduced into the discussion in an earlier post--by you.

After you mentioned this battery and quoted RELiON as saying it was "the one exception" to their line of batteries that were "not designed to be starting batteries,' I made the inference that the battery you mentioned was therefore a starting battery. I think that was a reasonable inference based on what you wrote.

I did not say the RELiON RB100HP was a starting battery, nor did I say the specification sheet includes that designation. I just cited the specification for PEAK DISCHARGE CURRENT as 800-Amperes, and then speculated that would be sufficient to get most outboard engine starter motors to turn, even with the usual initial current surge.

ASIDE: I have measured a few electric starter motors with a clamp-on Ammeter, and the current load is typically about 200 to 300-Amperes peak.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:30 am

porthole wrote:I am using six 100-Ah LiFEPO4's to supply a 3000-watt hybrid pure sine inverter.


Let's do some math: at 600-Ampere-hours and 12-Volts, the battery bank would have 7,200-Watt-hours. That capacity would be able to run the 3,000-Watt inverter for about 2-hours. Boy, that does not seem like a long duration, but, of course, a 3,000-Watt load is something like four or five toasters running simultaneously.

Also, even at $500-each, six LiFEPO4 batteries would be $3,000. At $1,000-each, that would be $6,000. That is quite an investment.

DUANE--in your system, what keeps the six batteries charged?

porthole
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:49 am

You said:
jimh wrote:I did not see an explicit statement that the battery must not be used for engine starting.


I offered that the manufacturers typically do not recommend for starting batteries. One does not usually see that they are not rated as starting batteries until you start asking questions. And of the three manufacturers I looked into, none offer them as starting batteries, only as deep cycle item.

I brought that up because I researched the three main players and asked those questions before buying my batteries.


jimh wrote:The alternative RELiON battery mentioned as being appropriate for engine starting is the RB100HP, a 12-Volt 100-Ampere-hour battery. See details at
https://www.emarineinc.com/RELiON-RB100 ... O4-Battery

The specification sheet for the RB100HP shows the maximum peak discharge current is rated at 800-Amperes. That ought to be able to crank over just about any outboard engine.


Whether it ought to be or it is approved are two different scenarios. And in Relion's message back to me, they do not say it is approved - only that they it is used in the bass boat market. And I could see a reason for this since speed is of the essence for these boaters and every pound saved might add a fractional amount of speed.

jimh wrote:
porthole wrote:I still do not see on this new battery you linked to where it says it can be used as a starting battery.


The battery I linked to--RELiON RB100HP--is not a "new" battery in the discussion. This battery was introduced into the discussion by you in an earlier post.


You linked it - I just copied and pasted the blurb from Relion that mentions it.


jimh wrote:I did not say the RELiON RB100HP was a starting battery, nor did I say the specification sheet includes that designation. I just cited the specification for PEAK DISCHARGE CURRENT as 800-Amperes.


These batteries, like most, are rated on a time weighted scale. I don't know about the Relion 800 amp number but I do know that many of these batteries have an extremely high dead short current capability. Some well in excess of 1000 amps. Doesn't mean you can use that amount of energy.



jimh wrote:After you mentioned this battery and quoted RELiON as saying it was "the one exception" to their line of batteries that were "not designed to be starting batteries,' I made the inference that the battery you mentioned was therefore a starting battery. I think that was a reasonable inference based on what you wrote.



I'm surprised you even said this. I inferred nothing of the sorts.

Now as mentioned above, I did ask the manufacture of my batteries if I could use them to start my diesel generator or would I need to add a separate starting battery. I was assured that with my then bank of 5 batteries that I would be OK. I have it in writing which is important to given the 10 year battery warranty.
Thanks,
Duane
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:01 pm

Unless the battery manufacturer states explicitly that their battery must never be used to start an outboard engine, I don't see how they could object to that use. In the email you quoted from RELiON, they say:

Duane in an earlier post wrote:[Quoting an email response from ReLION] ReLion’s batteries are ...not designed to be starting batteries. The one exception is our 12VRB100HP battery...


I don't know how that can be read in any way except to say that the 12VRB100HP was designed to be a starting battery. Now, the guy that wrote the email might not have intended that interpretation, but as a fairly competent reader of English, that is what he said.

It may be more informative to get the actual warranty statement for the battery. Most warranty statements include clauses listing certain conditions of use that are prohibited and void the warranty.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm

jimh wrote:
porthole wrote:DUANE--in your system, what keeps the six batteries charged?



The inverter is a 3,000-Watt AC pure-sine-wave, hybrid, auto-transfer, pass-through, 120-Ampere DC battery charger/inverter.
Magnum Energy does not rate the surge capability as double like many companies do, rather they list surge in "real watts."

5-sec surge power (real watts) 3900
30-sec surge power (real watts) 3800
5-min surge power (real watts) 3200
30-min surge power (real watts) 3000
Continuous power output at 25° C 3000 VA


Maximum DC input current is rated and limited at:
Maximum continuous input current 400 ADC

So my array has some reserve.

I do not anticipate ever running the inverter at its max-rated specs--continuous at 3000 watts - 25 amp load.

What I do anticipate is brief loads like microwaves and coffee makers.

When not inverting it is a charger and it does charge at the the 120 rated amps. When in hybrid mode it will supplement the AC line and diminish charge capability as needed.

Although they are not installed yet, I have nine 200-Watt photovoltaic ("solar") panels ready to be installed that will be the battery charge source when not on grid or generator power. Those panels are rated at an open circuit voltage of 24-Volts (21-Volts nominal) and dead short current of 9.7-Amperes. They will be wired in a three sets of three panels in series and those three sets then in parallel.

Off-grid at optimum sun it will be 63 to 75-Volts at 28-Amperes into a 100-Ampere MPPT charge controller. I have room to add one more series set if I find this insufficient.

The above "stuff" is why I went to LiFEPO4 batteries. Flooded-cell lead-acid batteries were off-gassing and starting to corrode the battery terminals in just two months. I also had two 12-Volt AGM batteries that were used because of a mix-up when built.

Weigh- savings and user-friendly were main reason to use these batteries:LiFEPO4 batteries at 600-Ampere-hour and 100-percent state-of-discharge rated mean two-thirds the weight of 200-Ampere-hours at 50-percent state-of-discharge rated batteries.
Thanks,
Duane
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:26 pm

jimh wrote:Unless the battery manufacturer states explicitly that their battery must never be used to start an outboard engine, I don't see how they could object to that use. In the email you quoted from RELiON, they say:

Duane in an earlier post wrote:[Quoting an email response from ReLION] ReLion’s batteries are ...not designed to be starting batteries. The one exception is our 12VRB100HP battery...


I don't know how that can be read in any way except to say that the 12VRB100HP was designed to be a starting battery. Now, the guy that wrote the email might not have intended that interpretation, but as a fairly competent reader of English, that is what he said.

It may be more informative to get the actual warranty statement for the battery. Most warranty statements include clauses listing certain conditions of use that are prohibited and void the warranty.


I agree with you and find his comment a bit ambiguous. And as such I will follow up with my query on Monday.

My opinion is you either can or cannot use it as a starting battery - which is it?

If that particular battery is OK for engine starting use, it would be something to consider, if it was important to have the weight savings. Aside from the weight savings I see no advantage to using it as a starting battery.

The sales push behind the the LiFEPO4's is that although they are expensive, you get the full rated amps instead of 50%. So in theory you get double the amp hours for a given number of batteries. Then there is the life expectancy. 300 cycles versus 3000-5000 cycles.

Taking cost, AH's, life expectancy, the LiFEPO'4 are about 1/5 to 1/4 the cost of equivalent FLS's, AGMs etc, and at 29 pounds per battery, a roughly 50% weight savings for each unit.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:50 am

I can see where on an airplane the weight might be important. On a boat that already weighs 4,000-lbs, not so much concern.

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 am

Those bass boaters though. A few pounds may give them a top speed of 70.3 instead of 70.1.
People using electric trolling motors may see the benefit and could justify to themselves the cost versus weight.

On the 21 Outrage I had, not at all [justified] AGM batteries in that boat were quite sufficient. The weight savings of 60 to 70-lbs going to the LiFEPO4 batteries would have been insignificant. That boat go the same fuel mileage no matter the fuel load, and for a 21-footer it had a huge tank, 125 gallons.

But, on a bigger boat with a cabin, you could almost justify the cost of several batteries and an inverter over a generator as long as Air-Conditioning was not your goal.
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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby jimh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:12 am

Duane--one more question: what brand are the LiFEPO4 100-Ampere-hour batteries you bought, and what was their cost?

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:42 am

BattleBorn, $924 shipped (no tax)
10 year warranty

https://battlebornbatteries.com/


Since I am using these as part of my SOLAR project, I qualify for the federal renewable energy credit when I file for the 2018 calendar year.
Thats good for a 30% credit. Makes my effective cost $648

Edit: My $925 price included a $25 off code, readily available on facebunk on a couple of the solar groups. Regular price is $949
Thanks,
Duane
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1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200

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Re: LiFePO Batteries for Marine Use

Postby porthole » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:50 am

On a boat I suppose you could add these pricey LiFEPO4's, add one of the cheap SOLAR panels to keep them charged up, add a cheap inverter and you may just qualify for the credit.
Thanks,
Duane
1999 Outrage 21
1999 Yamaha SW Series II 200