2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Repair or modification of Boston Whaler boats, their engines, trailers, and gear
Whalerdog
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2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:58 pm

I have a 2007 115 Mercury with about 450-hours [of run time].

[When] under[way with some engine] power [the engine trim position] gets to a point where [the engine can] trim up and then goes no further.

For instance, when underway at full throttle, [the engine] can usually be trimmed-up until the helm becomes hard to steer or the cooling water pressure starts to drop.

Now [the engine] will not do that any more.

When at the dock not running [the engine] trims up fully.

{Give me] suggestion as to what may be [the cause of the engine being unable to trim out or trim up when underway at full throttle].

Last year I checked [the fluid reservoir in the hydraulic system for power trim] and [the level of the fluid] seemed full--unless I did that incorrectly.

Would appreciate any tips on trouble shooting [the failure of the power trim to be able to trim up the engine when underway at full throttle]. I have not seen any leaks, and the sound the trim motor makes is fine.

It has not had an easy life popping in and out of waves at times.

Is there a check valve in the pump?

Thanks

Whalerdog
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Re: Mercury 2007 115 trim problem?

Postby Whalerdog » Thu May 10, 2018 8:07 pm

Update: I bought a entire new trim assembly. [The] dealers wanted $1,160 for the [trim assembly]. A friend got [the trim assembly] for $855.

The new trim assembly is made in China. [I am] not sure [where the original trim assembly] on the [2007 engine was made]. [The new trim assembly] is now made of some type of plastic--a better design [with] no rust.

Now the piston and trim motor have more room between them. [In the] original design the piston and trim motor rubbed [on something] then rusted.

[The boat will be] in water soon to try out [the new trim assembly].

No one has the tools or knowledge to really tell if [the defect that was causing the problem described earlier as failure to be able to trim up under full throttle was caused by the hydraulic] piston or the [electric] motor. [Service providers] just replace the entire [assembly] when there's a problem.

A rebuilt [electric] motor [for the trim system can be purchased] for $450 from a company in Florida.

On eBay I saw rebuilt [trim assemblies advertised] for $450 [when you trade in a] core. [The advertisers on eBay] offer two-year warranty.

Also, after market [trim assemblies are] available, but I went with an OEM assembly--and am glad I did.

I hope [the new OEM trim assembly will] last as long as the first [trim assembly did]. Twelve years from now I'll probably be out of boating or off the planet--if you know what I mean. Or really in the planet buried.

Whalerdog
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Re: Mercury 2007 115 trim problem?

Postby Whalerdog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:31 pm

New results: the new trim pump from Mercury made in China is failing. It won't hold the lower unit out of water. In two or three days it has dropped back in water 8-inches from 22-inches above water.

Whalerdog
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Warranty on Mercury Parts

Postby Whalerdog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:42 pm

A installed a new trim pump assembly on my 2007 Mercury [1]15-HP engine. A few days [later] and it sinks back into water. [This new replacement trim pump assembly was] only [installed] on [the engine for] a month.

I can't find length of warranty on parts or procedures for a claim.

dtmackey
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Re:Warranty on Mercury Parts

Postby dtmackey » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:48 pm

I was not aware Merc made a 215 outboard. Do you have more details on the motor and where you purchased? There's not [much] to a trim pump to go wrong. You may want to check the screw that allows the motor to be tilted manually to make sure it's fully seated.

D-

dtmackey
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Re: Mercury 2007 115 trim problem?

Postby dtmackey » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Before dumping on the trim unit, check the fluid level and also the manual trim override screw to make sure it's fully seated and not partially open allowing for it to tilt down. This would be common with any trim unit no matter the brand.

D-

Whalerdog
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Re: Warranty on Mercury Parts

Postby Whalerdog » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Sorry [the engine under discussion is a Mercury product year] 2007 115[-HP].

[To check the screw that allows the motor to be tilted manually to make sure it's fully seated] is a good idea--I'll check it.

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:49 am

I would expect that when a new OEM trim assembly is shipped there wouldn't be any fluid in the system. Generally the fluid will be added later, then the system has to purged of any air. Usually the installation instructions give a method for purging air from the system. Or the owner's manual will give a method for purging air from the system.

As DT' mentions, if there is any loss of hydraulic pressure from the manual pressure release port, the hydraulic system will not work properly. An insufficient volume of hydraulic fluid in the system will also cause the system to malfunction.

I infer from your narrative that you did not actually buy the replacement part yourself, but got it from a friend who apparently bought it from somewhere other than your local Mercury dealer. I also infer you installed the trim assembly yourself. Under those circumstances you might have some difficulty getting a remedy from the retailer who sold the pump to your friend, if the pump turns out to be actually defective and needs replacement.

Whalerdog
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Re: Warranty on Mercury Parts

Postby Whalerdog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:31 pm

Checked [the manual pressure release valve and found] it is tight.

I guess [the cause of the engine failing to hold trim position is a] bad pump seal.

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Combined two threads by same OP on same topic.

Whalerdog wrote:I can't find length of warranty on parts or procedures for a claim.


Re the warranty on Mercury parts: I'd expect the most authoritative source of information on the duration of a warranty on a Mercury part would come from a Mercury dealer or from Mercury. Anyone else's information would not be particularly authoritative. Check the bill of sale to see if it declares any limitation. Check the installation instructions that came with the OEM replacement part. They often express the warranty.

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:15 pm

Re your question if a hydraulic trim system has a checkvalve: yes, it probably has several. If you want to make repairs to or provide service for the hydraulic trim system on your 2007 Mercury 115-HP engine, I suggest you get the factory service manual. Typically the factory service manual will have a section dedicated just to the hydraulic power trim system. It will typically have diagrams of the hydraulic lines and valves. It will have procedures for making repairs. To perform repair work on a power trim hydraulic system without the service manual will likely be difficult.

The hydraulic power trim and tilt systems on outboard engines are often not made by then engine manufacturer. The engine manufacturer often buys the power trim assembly as a whole assembly, made by a vendor who specializes in those systems. The SHOWA company of Japan has been a major supplier for many years to outboard companies like Brunswick (Mercury).

Your comment that the replacement OEM part you purchased was made in China is quite interesting. That it failed in a few hours of use is also quite surprising. Perhaps Brunswick has gone to a Chinese manufacturer to replace SHOWA. SHOWA has some manufacturing facilities in China, but they seem to be mostly related to automotive parts, not outboard engine trim assemblies.

jimh
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Re: cause of problem is a bad pump seal

Postby jimh » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:18 pm

Whalerdog wrote:...I guess [the cause of the engine failing to hold trim position is a] bad pump seal.


If there were a bad seal in part of the hydraulic system, I would expect there would be evidence of hydraulic fluid escaping from the system. Have you found any evidence that hydraulic fluid is escaping from the system?

dtmackey
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Re: cause of problem is a bad pump seal

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:05 pm

jimh wrote:
Whalerdog wrote:...I guess [the cause of the engine failing to hold trim position is a] bad pump seal.


If there were a bad seal in part of the hydraulic system, I would expect there would be evidence of hydraulic fluid escaping from the system. Have you found any evidence that hydraulic fluid is escaping from the system?


It is possible to have a trim unit that slowly drops (motor goes down) and not have a hydraulic fluid leak. The trim units are sealed, but do have many internal passages and bypasses that "could" have a problem, but if a new unit I think it would be unlikely. If it was a rebuilt unit, then it falls on the competency of the person rebuilding the the materials used.

Years ago I had a rebuilt trim unit behave the same way out of the box and before I could send it back under warranty, the tech had me check a number of things before issuing a return authorization under warranty. They are still in business, but no longer rebuild trim units.

D-

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:33 pm

Trim unit can have an internal leak with no fluid escaping. In Mercury box and did say made in china. Different from original unit design but bolts right in. Release valve is tight. Will pull boat and check fluid level again. Two thousand rpm and unit would not trim up. I have a service manual that states 1" drop in motor in 24 hr is permissible. This drops 8" in 24 hr. When I got the boat and motor new if I was running at 5,000 I could trim it right out of water till prop blew out. Motor will not do that now. Gets to point where it keeps dropping back down and going up.

When you ask around here about testing. No dealers have the proper equipment to test it. They just say we replace it all. I went through that last year when trying to diagnose if it was pump or motor with an internal leak.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:40 pm

https://youtu.be/txPGKUIDjvE


That is at 2,000 RPM with trim button pressed continuously.

Pulling it out in morning.

New pumps look like this now

http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayIS ... 9000&ver=0

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:45 am

Trim pumps are inherently self bleeding according to seloc manual I have. Low fluid would make pump work eratic. I will check today. You need a pressure gauge to check pressures going up and down which I don't have.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:53 pm

Fluid is full. I'll be calling Merc tomorrow.

dtmackey
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby dtmackey » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:43 pm

Whalerdog wrote:Trim unit can have an internal leak with no fluid escaping. In Mercury box and did say made in china. Different from original unit design but bolts right in. Release valve is tight. Will pull boat and check fluid level again. Two thousand rpm and unit would not trim up. I have a service manual that states 1" drop in motor in 24 hr is permissible. This drops 8" in 24 hr. When I got the boat and motor new if I was running at 5,000 I could trim it right out of water till prop blew out. Motor will not do that now. Gets to point where it keeps dropping back down and going up.


The specs you call out for the motor dropping 1" in 24hrs shocks me and I'm surprised this is called out in a service manual and curious if this is specific to Mercury. I've only had one motor that exhibited any drop at all and it was a worn out unit that I replaced with a rebuilt. All the motors I've owned last through a winter storage with virtually no drop in the trim unit over 8 months (Yamaha and Evinrude), I do not use the trailer bracket lever to hold in a position and rely on just the tilt/trim rams.

D-

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:57 pm

I found out there is a service bulletin out for bad check valves.

I have to take boat to dealer. Technical representative I spoke to from Mercury should have checked this when I called last week—he is Not on the ball.

I hope this comes to an end soon.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:56 am

Mercury said permissable drop is 2-inches in 24-hours. My boatsat in dealer's yard for two weeks so they said it was fine today within specification for dropping.

That was until I put my foot on lower unit and pressed it while leaning on a fence. The lower unit dropped right in from my foot pressure. It has an internal leak with fluid bypassing a valve or seal somewhere. Junk made in China by Mercury [and sold at] $1,135.

Mercury wanted the dealer to start checking the pump internally. Dealer said cheaper to send [another] new pump. Supposedly I am getting another new pump.

While the boat sat in dealer's uselesly for two weeks someone stole the seat canvas. Now I am out another $500, or more.

The Mechanic said he wants to test the [next replacement] pump in a vise with pressure before installing it. The new pump [on the engine now] worked the first few times before failing.

quickenberger
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby quickenberger » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Any update on this?

I may have to service the trim unit on my 2006 Mercury OptiMax engine sometime this winter.

Believe it or not, those pumps are made by Parker Oildyne. The stuff coming from their China manufacturing plant is usually pretty good.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:50 pm

[Installation of the] new [trim-tilt] pump [is] done, [and I] will pick up the boat tomorrow. I hope to get out this weekend.

ASIDE: a guy I know bought a 13-foot WAHOO with 1992 Mercury 40-HP outboard engine that looked good—until I saw the trim unit. The trim unit was really badly rotted. He paid $3,500 for boat. I told him [the actual vale of the boat and engine was] $2,000. Now seeing the boat out of water I know I was right. He got sick when I told him what trim units cost.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:27 pm

[The boat is] not in the water, but the new trim-tilt pump holds; no drop.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Not in water yet. I was told SHOWA makes pumps and they have a ton of bad pumps out there.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:25 pm

Dropped in [the boat that has the 2007 Mercury 115-HP engine with the failed power trim system being discussed] today. [The Mercury engine] no longer sinks when trimmed up at dock. [The Mercury engine] does get to a limit of trim under [full] power and stops.

[I] don't remember the original [power trim unit on the engine] doing that. [The power trim unit that was originally on the Mercury engine] would trim-up the engine until water pressure dropped or propeller blew out. Above 1500-RPM [the replacement power trim unit on this Mercury engine] cannot trim-out. [The engine] will just collapse downward.

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:57 am

Based on your description of the inability of the replacement power trim unit to be able to maintain the engine at an elevated trim position when the engine is operating at high throttle settings, I would judge the replacement power trim as defective and not providing a remedy to the problem.

dtmackey
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby dtmackey » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:46 pm

Whalerdog wrote:Not in water yet. I was told SHOWA makes pumps and they have a ton of bad pumps out there.


And this is how rumors start. Showa does have several designs that are similar across multiple manufactures, but I can't confirm there's a ton of bad pumps or if Showa was give poor specs from a particular manufacturer which seems to have a higher "failure" rate. I've had several Showa units and never a problem and one it now 12 years old.

So I can better understand, does your unit have rams for trim that are separate from the tilt?

D-

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 am

There is a history of Mercury people—dealers, technicians, and super-fans—blaiming failures or defects in Mercury outboard engines on the vendors that sold Mercury the component they choose to use in the Mercury engine.

I don’t see what possible difference that excuse can make for an owner—as we have here in this thread—suffering from repeated failures of the same OEM component.

What makes a defect acceptable because one frustrated owner thinks that SHOWA products are substandard? If this were true, then wouldn’t you think Mercury already knew this?

And why do SHOWA units on other brands work for decades?

If a Mercury engine has a defect, that’s a Mercury engine defect. If you buy an OEM replacement part from a dealer, and that part is defective, it is a defective Mercury replacement part.

If you bought an aftermarket non-Mercury part, then the manufacturer should have his name clearly shown on the part or the box, and the part chosen may not be up to the OEM specification.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:13 am

Going back to Merc dealer for warranty again. Does the same things and now sinks 8" in 24 hr. Unit has one ram 2007 115. Mercury told dealer they have had problem with material they made gaskets / seals out of.

jimh
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby jimh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:02 am

If Mercury knows that in their supply chain there are a great number of defective power-trim assembly replacement parts, they should not be selling the part to customers and then anticipating that the customer will be the quality-control process. A manufacturing company that cares about quality control would not sell parts to its customers that they knowingly suspected of being defective, then let the customer go to the bother and expense of installing the part, and then letting the customer discover the defect in the part.

Modern manufacturing companies that have good process control procedures will know exactly where all the parts they get from a particular shipment from a particular vendor have been used in either assembly operations or spare part operations. If a modern manufacturing company thinks that a vendor supplied then with some poor quality parts in a particular batch or shipment, the manufacturing process control system will know which engines got those bad parts and which dealers were sent the bad parts.

Whalerdog
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Re: 2007 Mercury 115 Power Trim System Problem

Postby Whalerdog » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:05 pm

May be like carbon fiber inlay pieces in my car interior warrantied 5 times. They glue them and then they glue fails and or they curl up or just lift. Insanity over and over with same results.