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ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Dell Quay Boats
|Author||Topic: Dell Quay Boats|
posted 03-10-2000 08:38 PM ET (US)
I own a Dell Quay Dory 13, often referred to as an English Whaler. This British boat is almost identical to a 13 Whaler. Dell Quays have been used by the British Navy for years and are extremely tough. They are built in Staffordshire by Fletcher. I would appreciate any info anyone would have regarding these boats. They were marketed in the U.S. during the 1980`s, but were apparently not able to compete with domestic brands because of import costs.
posted 03-26-2000 08:24 PM ET (US)
These boats do not have a place on this NG!
They are IMHO a cheap knock-off. They couldn't "compete in the marketplace" because they are not in the same class as a Whaler!They may have cloned the idea-but the execution is poor- the fiberglass work is nowhere near up to the quality of any Whaler. Get a life WANNABE.
posted 03-27-2000 10:02 AM ET (US)
Welcome thanks for posting maybe someone in the group might be familiar with these boats, hard to tell, there is a lot of knowledge on various types other than Whalers here.
I don't think Jim the developer and moderator of this site and forum would dissuade others with questions on boats other than Boston whaler from participating. The site is designed for discussions and information on "classic" Whalers, but heck I sort of like reading about all types whether Whalers or copies. Broadens ones knowledge I say!
There was a great discussion a while back with a very interesting Australian about his Australian Performance Craft which resembled the 13 Classic Whaler. Certainly hope he returns with more great stories.
Just have to wait and see if anyone of the members might shed some light on your boat.
|david in boston||
posted 03-27-2000 10:30 AM ET (US)
I agree with bigz. I am interested in hearing about the Dell Quay and Austrailian models as wellas any other whaler type boats. Keep it coming! It cant hurt to expand your horizons a little. David
posted 03-27-2000 10:53 PM ET (US)
OK, now that you've broached the subject of other boats... I would love to get some feedback regarding Edgewater boats (http://www.edgewaterpowerboats.com). Supposedly, these are designed/built by Bob Dougherty, former chief engineer at Boston Whaler for 30 years. I'm considering the Edgewater 14' boat versus the new Whaler 13' Sport. I'm worried that the latter is less a true Whaler than those made/designed by an old-timer from BW. Comments???
posted 04-02-2000 08:58 AM ET (US)
I agree, I like other brands of boats also Grady-Whait, Carolina Skiff, Edgewater,etc. I like to hear stories and learn more about other vessels. Matt go with the Edgewater, the new Whalers since 1990 are not as good as once were. I test drove a `99 Montauk and fit and finish and over all quality was average at best. I walked out of the dealership mad, sad, and longing for Rockland,Mass. Richard Fisher forever. Also anyone with any knowledge of Wahoo boats would be appreciated, I say some eighties models and they looked nice and functional. Thanks-JACK.
posted 04-02-2000 10:43 AM ET (US)
There is one problem with limiting yourself to older boats, like Whalers '58 - '90: they can be hard to find!
If someone owns a mint condition boat from that era, they're probably not highly motivated to sell.
And another problem: you're looking at _old_ boats. Not all of them have spent most of their life indoors, out of the salt and sun. Not all of them have received 20+ years of TLC. When someone says, "This boat has worn out five motors," it sounds great, but that's a boat that has seen a lot of use!
The beef with Whaler's newest designs is not so much a case of construction as it is form. The hull forms have evolved into shapes that don't really resemble the "classic" whalers.
But they still manufacture the Montauk, and it uses the same hull shape it did in 1976.
The new models don't have much, if any, wood, but this is not necessarily something awful. Whaler has to sell boats, and it seems that most people don't want to buy a boat loaded up with brightwork to maintain, at least not in a 17 footer.
And if you take a survey of boats in use with lots of wood, it is the exception to find one with all the wood in showroom condition.
I do think Whaler is missing the boat (pun intended) on the current "retro" craze by not producing a model that looks a little more 60's-ish.
Perhaps the biggest change over the years is that other companies have evolved making similar, useful, functional boats. Back in the early 60's the Whaler was pretty much unique. Today, when you compare Whaler to the rest, it turns out there are some pretty worthy competitors.
So perhaps current Whalers don't stand out from the crowd as much as the old ones, but that is also a function of what the "rest of the crowd" looks like.
Will a 2000 model Montauk last for 25 years? I guess we'll have to wait for 2025 to tell for sure, but it doesn't look to me like they're much differently built than the old ones. If anything, the current boats probably have heavier layups and more embedded wood than the originals.
posted 04-02-2000 02:13 PM ET (US)
Jim, thanks for commenting. In a way you are correct in saying less wood trim is more functional, I like alll fiberglass and stainless myself and the Montauk does look the same as it has for many years, but still doesn`t explain my experiance at the dealership with the `99 Montauk. Still had bad fit and finish, the gauges didn`t work and overall quality was not what I remember. As a side bar I talked to a Whaler representative and asked him if they were going to bring back the old `15 sport, outrage, etc. with the old hull designs and he said no way. Also asked about the desert tan gelcoat wich I love, he said no way. Now can you understand why the new Boston Whaler makes me so mad. As for Whaler trying to look like other boats, I hate the looks of most other boats, they all look so blagh! To clean and prissy looking. Also Jim the one thing I can`t understand is why Boston Whaler was sold and moved to Florida. I thought they would never sell and move, Rockland, Mass. was so Boston Whaler? Please respond-JACK.
posted 04-02-2000 03:08 PM ET (US)
Hi all --- short history in '69 Fisher sold BW to CML of Acton Mass. and was never affiliated with Whaler again, in '88 CML sold it to Reebok for $45m, Reebok sold it to Meridian in '93 for $20m, and in '94 built the new plant in Edgewater and moved everything there (I think primarily due to labor availability and cost, general overhead cost in NE, and guessing the cost associated with refurbishing an old plant vs. building a state of the art plant in a warm climate where there was lower operating cost and a decent labor pool might have been the reasons)then in '96 Meridian sold to Brunswick for $25.3m --- Regards Thomas
posted 04-03-2000 12:23 AM ET (US)
Thomas: You're pretty close on your change of ownership info, but here's some more detail on what I have heard. The current Edgewater FL plant was purchased in 1987 under the Dougherty Era. It was not a new plant, but had previously been built for another boat builder who went out of business. It went on line for Whaler in Feb 1988 according to a 1988 Whaler newsletter. I was given a tour of the plant in 1988, before I ordered my 1989 25 Outrage, and I do know that my boat was built at Edgewater in May of '89. (as were all of their models 20' and larger) Also, in the summer of 1988, Boston Whaler opened a new Corporate Headquarters in Rockland MA. All of this indicates to me that the Company, under CML & Dougherty, had not really planned to relocate all operations to FL. I was under the impression that the Reebock sale occurred in 1990, with considerable speed & under some duress. I was told that Irwin Jacobs, of the Genmar boat Group (Wellcraft, etc at the time) was accumulating the CML stock for a take over, the only intention being to get hold of Boston Whaler, and that the CML people, in order to protect their other holdings,(such as Nordic Track) and to keep the company out of Jacob's hands, rushed a deal with Reebock.
Stripped of Boston Whaler, Jacobs let CML alone. Evidently, that caused Dougherty to leave the Company and start up his own Marlin (now Edgewater) boat company, in Edgewater FL also. Reebock brought in Peter Van Lancker, previous president of the defunct Black Watch Boat Company, as chief designer, who brought out his first designs, strongly resembling Black Watch boats, as the 1991 21' & 23' Walkarounds, in white gelcoat, and changed the look of new Boston Whalers forever. Even though they didn't look like Whalers, these were high quality boats. As a matter of fact, they were so expensive to build, that they were only made for 3 years, and the Company began a six year profits slide, losing money each year since 1991. Insiders have told me that Reebock hurt the Company, but that the Meridian people, who purchased in 1994, builders of the Mastercraft ski boats, almost finished it off. In an effort cut red ink, all of the Boston operations were discontinued in 1994 (I think), since sales were plumeting, and they didn't need the other plants. So Brunswick came in, recognizing an incredibly powerful trademark identity & reputation, threw out what was left of the Reebock & Meridian designs and, after struggling for a year as to what to do with it, (for a while it was part of a boat group including Wahoo and Robalo) put the company under the Sea Ray Division, with their new designs. Van Lancker had left to become head of OMC's boat companies. Brunswick's financials indicate they paid a mere $27 million for the Company from Meridian, (pocket change for them, and a bargain for what they got) and at the same time paid $110 million to purchase Igloo Cooler Co! (12 years ago they paid $420 million for Sea Ray!) To me, the whole experience of the 90's was a fate Boston Whaler boats didn't deserve, but that is modern business these days. Because of the financial clout of the Brunswick/Mercury empire, it's unlikely that Boston Whaler will ever again be sold to become an independent, highly innovative Company, as it was under Fisher, Dougherty & CML. But I've not given up hope, and would like to see some improved, more distinctive, designs in the future.
posted 04-03-2000 08:10 AM ET (US)
In reference to Bajadud`s reply, I thought a Whaler clone would be of interest to others. As to quality, it`s sort of like beauty in that it is in the eye of the beholder. I have owned Whalers as well as a Dell Quay and really see no inferiority in the British boat, but don`t wish to get into a diatribe over this. By the way, anglerworld.com has an excellent message board in which snide, belligerent remarks are pretty much expected. I have usually found that Whaler owners are more of a cordial, congenial group of boaters, but I see now that there are exceptions. Sorry if I bored anyone with info on another brand of boat.
posted 04-03-2000 07:28 PM ET (US)
Well said Esjay. This is a forum, an outlet for discussion of matters of interest to a given group. Larry, excellent summary explaining the many transfers of ownership of BW. You have added much to my never ending thirst for BW history. Thanks
posted 04-03-2000 09:39 PM ET (US)
Brunswick has a rather dubious reputation - they almost ruined Harley Davidson. I have owned three of their outboards and was dissatisfied with all of them. Currently, the only Brunswick product I own is a billiard table. They should stick with bowling balls and pool tables. Furthermore, a Boston Whaler should be made in Massachusetts, not in South Florida where the labor is cheap.
posted 04-03-2000 11:55 PM ET (US)
AMF almost ruined Harley, not Brunswick.
Brunswick has never owned them. But Brunswick could still learn a lesson from the Harley Davidson turn-around. As a company, they seem to have no business interest in the entire classic Boston Whaler culture that is out there, and on this Website.
posted 04-03-2000 11:57 PM ET (US)
The classic is not dead yet, just be prepared to pay more for it. I ordered a new Guardian 22 last year (same design as the old 22 Outrage, or V22). I agree with most the comments about the classic hull (both here and the old forum), but the reality is that the cost of ownership has gone up. The guardians are a semi custom boat, so the boat can be built to your needs - so long as you're willing to pay.
The guys at the commercial products division are great to work with. They made me a great boat, and even supplied blueprints when I requested them. If you're like me, and want the old style whaler, order a Guardian while it lasts (there is talk of discontinuing the old hulls). IMO they are worth every penny.
PS Being my first post (thanks again Larry), I couldn't quite figure out how to add to Larry's post.
posted 04-04-2000 09:17 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the corrections, as some one else said "boy that Larry sure knows Whaler history" truer words were never more spoken.
I realize I made a mistake saying they built a plant should have said they just moved the whole show down to the existing Edgewater plant in '94!
On the Reebok deal my information puts it at '88! This is from a recent book on the history of the fiberglass boat industry called "The Heart of Glass" by Daniel Spurr, possible he had his facts wrong on the year Reebock took over! It does appear CML's sale to Reebok but a lot of money in CML's coffers compared to the subsequent sales of Whaler steadily going towards the basement!
Did you mean they built "new" headquarters in Rockland? I know they had headquarters there already before '88!
Anyway really appreciate al the insight I find it intriguing to say the least --- Regards Thomas
PS Louie makes no understatement on the "pricey" Commercial Division's Whalers --- I have a '95 Commercial Price booklet and wow --- I can just imagine where the prices are today --- and the options are unreal --- care for a 50 cal machine gun mount --- chuckle you can get it ----
posted 04-04-2000 06:28 PM ET (US)
The 50 cal mounts are running $7,000 each....I opted to leave them off. The advantage of having some of these options available is the amount of phenolic that is imbedded in the hulls. Most add-ons can be drilled and tapped to the phenolic vs wood screws. The cleats, rails, consoles, t-tops etc are fastened this way.
posted 04-13-2000 02:50 PM ET (US)
Thomas: I believe Daniel Spurr's book has erroneous information regarding Reebock's purchase of Boston Whaler from CML Group in 1988.
As they say, just because it's in print, doesn't mean it's accurate! I have a September 1988 copy of "Whaler News", which they list as their 30th anniversary issue. Here they indicate that they opened a NEW corporate headquarters building in Rockland in 1988 (picture included). There is absolutely no mention of anything regarding Reebock, nor of any intention of selling the Company. When I bought my new 1989 Outrage in June of '89, I had not heard of it either. But I do believe it happened either in late 1989 or early 1990, since the 1991 Van Lancker designed Walkarounds were on display at the Feb 1991 Miami Boat Show.
Boston Whaler's 1989 catalog shows "A Member of the CML Companies" but the 1990 catalog does not. So something did happen unexpectedly.
Here is another interesting & revealing QUOTE from an article in this 1988 newsletter regarding this issue of selling the Company: (non-existant in 1988)
As you'll see from the special 30th year commemorative section in this issue of the Whaler News, many things have changed over the years. Our new Whaler 31 even has a pointed bow - almost. But you'll also see that the things upon which Boston Whaler values are built - our people, our pride in our craftsmanship, our belief that a design should fill a need, not follow a trend - have not changed at all, and never will.
If you don't already know who they are, we'll introduce you to some of the people who have made Boston Whaler what it is. You'll meet Dick Fisher, who although he has retired from the marine industry, is as much of a tinkerer and an experimenter as ever. You'll meet our chief designer and senior vice president of engineering, Bob Dougherty, who in the more than a quarter of a century he has been at Boston Whaler, has himself become a legend in the boat business. And you'll meet our president, Bill Ryan, who among all his qualifications has one that we consider essential for the CEO of Boston Whaler - there is nothing he would rather do than spend his time messing around in boats.
We'll show you how the Boston Whaler line has evolved from that first 13 to our latest 31. We'll even show you the advertising lines we've used over the years to sell Boston Whalers. Some of them have been acclaimed for being as unique as the boats themselves.
On another note, this same 1988 Newsletter contains a picture of a 22 Outrage named "White Water" with the following caption:
Congratulations, Don, 13 years late! Nice boat and nice picture. The setting looks like Georgian Bay or the North Channel of Lake Huron.
posted 04-13-2000 06:53 PM ET (US)
I seen a quote from Don McIntyre on the cover of a 1984 Whaler catalog talking about a 25 Revenge Cuddy.I wonder if he still has that Whaler?
See Ya,Ed Stone
posted 04-13-2000 10:20 PM ET (US)
Larry & Ed -
Thanks for the complement. I never did get around to cashing in the gift cert. Actually, come to think of it, I took it to the local dealer, and before I got around to cashing it in on something, they dropped carrying BW! I still have the slide of the print that I submitted. It was a 22' Outrage that was shot among the rocks at the extreme south end of Fox Island, in the North Channel area (good eyes). At the very end of Fox, there is a slit that you can go up into a small pool like area, with a large (100x80') squarish rock outcropping right in the middle of the pool. We moored about 1/2 way up the slit for the shot (short aside, we've found that using rock climbing gear, specifically carabiners and rock nuts work great in this region)
I don't have the 25.... sold it around 1994 to a canadian fellow over in Sarnia (across the bridge from us) who owned it for a year, and it came back and is reportedly around the St. Clair Shores, Michigan area. It was a very unique boat, with a Merc 260 I/O, and the forward steering station and cuddy. Gave us a huge amount of floor space. We used to keep the teak varnished, except on the gunnels (high traffic area) and on the teak swim platform. Canvas wasn't Mills, as they had a real functional but _ugly_ canvas set, that snapped across the cabin, went straight up 6' or so, to the top, which went back then down. Our design was done locally, and attached to the top of the small windshield, and was a three bow system, with 'glass in sections to the first bow. Had a full camper top set that attached to the back of the flying top, and went up (more headroom) then back to just behind the rear quarter seats. Both sides and the back were screened too.
I'll get around to posting photos of her too, along with the Whaler sailboat.
Best - Don
posted 08-09-2004 05:42 PM ET (US)
can anyone please provide any information on the Dell Quay J20 please? Thanks
posted 08-11-2004 11:07 AM ET (US)
How did this get bumped up? no post since 2000, exept this one.
posted 08-11-2004 11:08 AM ET (US)
Must be a bug. My post was dated 2000 as well.
Sorry to take up everyone's time.
posted 01-26-2006 06:15 PM ET (US)
blue prints for mahoghony wood of the 1968 Nauset.
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