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Author Topic:   #@!^%~ whaler insurance

matt posted 03-18-2000 12:05 AM ET (US)
i have a 1985 15'sport with a 70 johnson. my insurance company uses the blue book for boat values.they value it at 1200.00,i could'nt buy another one for double that.plus that does'nt include the deductible.the boat is too old to get replacement insurance, so ,what do all of you do?
lhg posted 03-18-2000 02:19 PM ET (US)
As an Independent Insurance Agent & Broker, maybe I can give you some helpful information. First of all, you are correct regarding published valuations of Whalers. They are almost always too low, and below true market value of the boats, especially if it is an out of production Classic model.
But you have to realize that these guides, such as NADA & BUC, help insurance companies settle claims in their favor, and help dealers buy low when taking boats in on trade. They are not published for the benefit of the public. Almost every Classic Whaler owner will take a large loss on an insurance settlement on his boat, particularly if it is a total loss. Here's what you should do. First of all, have your Agent write your policy on an "AGREED AMOUNT" basis, in which the Company agrees to pay you based on the YOUR previously submitted data specifying the value of your rig. They AGREE not to contest your valuation if it's legitimate. Not all insurance companies will do this, and your Agent may have to look around around to find such a company. Or you may have to call another Agency. Chubb Insurance Co is one such company that I use for this purpose, but you will have to have your home and auto insurance with them also. This is not "price shoppers" insurance. You will pay more for the fact that you are getting more, and for the peace of mind. Some companies use "STATED VALUE" coverage, such as the Boat US carrier, where you can "state" what YOU think the rig is worth, but they will still use the guides as the basis for their settlements, and they are not obligated to pay the value you stated. You will still have a hassle.
If you have to live with a conventional or stated value boat insurance policy, you should prepare a carefully itemized list of EVERYTHING in or on your boat, with separate sections for engine items and trailer items, and show the value of each individual item. You'll be amazed what you have spent! Those boat guide valuations list a boat in it's minimal configuration. On Whalers, for instance, even the Igloo Cooler seat & floor cleats is an option, and would not be included in the valuation. Same for navigation lights on the smaller models. Outboard engines are also listed as "bare engines", not including controls & harnesses, tie bars, gauges, fuel lines & filters, etc, to say nothing of the cost a dealer would charge for re-rigging. So when you have a nice listing prepared, send it to your Agent and request coverage in the amount you have listed. You should have four items: 1. boat and it's permanently installed accessories, electronics & upgrades. 2. Engine(s) and all accessories & controls specifically related to the engines. 3. Trailer and any accessories or upgrades you have added. 4. Non-permanent boating accessories, such as life jackets, cushions, paddles, water skis, etc. The insurance company may refuse to insure your rig for your valuation without an independent appraisal, but at least they will know what you've got. If that is the case, look for another company, since you cannot recover more than the limit of the policy. For your own records, also take detailed pictures of engines, trailer, boat etc, so you will have some proof of what you've got and what condition it was in.
All insurance policies basically cover you on an ACTUAL CASH VALUE basis, which means average market valuation. So the other thing you will have to do after a loss, is find other boats & engines like yours for sale, and prove to the insurance company that the "actual cash value" is higher than what the book shows, based on similar Whalers for sale. This would be the case if you have a "Stated Value" type policy. They will grudingly have to pay you that value if you hang tough. The more pristine & classic your boat is, to more difficulty you will have in proving it's higher value, because there will be less to compare with. Mint condition classic whalers are not often for sale.
So that's lesson 101 in Classic Whaler boat insurance. If your boat is 1984 or newer, you can get a free NADA valuation by going to
nada.com You'll be shocked!
matt posted 03-18-2000 10:24 PM ET (US)
thanks for the low down i'm printing it so i can cipher on it all next week.think i'll need it.i went to nada like you said,and yes i was surprised that my 15'whaler is worth 1000.00 including bimini and electronics.i didnt see a box to include trailer so i guess it was included.?hope you dont mind if i ask you more questions as i try to insure my boat.thanks matt corey
David Reid posted 03-20-2000 11:04 AM ET (US)
Insure for the max, including motor, then be careful! That's gotten me to sleep at night for a long time, through a 17' and my current 18.5'.
bajadude posted 03-26-2000 09:13 PM ET (US)
That's right. The NADA book is the one dealer's use to screw you when you trade in your boat... the BUC book is a bit more realistic, but take the afformentioned advice and insure for "stated value" and be prepared to pay more for it. JK
wds posted 05-20-2000 10:30 AM ET (US)
I believe the NADA book just applies a fixed depreciation rate per year, and does not look at the market.
Keep copies of newspaper ads, internet listings, and other records that establish the value of your boat. These can be used to convince the insurance company that the book is wrong.
15' Whalers here sell for $5-6M and go within 24 hours, but the book puts it at about $3,000 retail!
Pat Smith posted 07-15-2000 06:14 PM ET (US)
I added my boat to my home owners insurance,had to be under 26 ft.Cost me $121.00 added per year.(1985 outrage 18ft.)
lhg posted 07-17-2000 12:02 AM ET (US)
Pat: You had better be sure your insurance agent knows what they're doing! It sounds like you got liability insurance only, and nothing for the value of the boat. I have never heard of a boat with 150HP being insured for physical damage under an HO policy. You need a comprehensive boat policy for a craft like an 18 outrage.
lhg posted 10-27-2000 06:47 PM ET (US)
Since insurance is a current topic, just bringing this buried thread back up to the top for review by those interested.
hauptjm posted 10-30-2000 03:40 PM ET (US)
Larry,
Great idea! I think we need to keep this a current topic. I am currently going through a situation right now. My next-door neighbor spotted 3 guys on 2 different nights at 1:00am walking around my boat in my driveway in the last week. I'm obviously being cased for a rip-off. I'm trying to do what I can to thwart any thievery, but as they say, if someone wants something bad enough, they'll get it. Nonetheless, this worries me in regard to what we would go through if one of these SOBs were to get my boat (or engine, gear, etc.). I too am surprised that a homeowner�s policy would adequately cover an Outrage at all. I would love to pay only $120.00 a year. Mine runs over $500.00/year.
lhg posted 10-30-2000 04:02 PM ET (US)
Jim: They're probably interested in the engine, particularly if it's relatively new and in good shape. The boat's too hard to get rid of, but outboard engines are a piece of cake. I'm told there's a huge market for them in Latin America and the Islands, where they cost a fortune new. They steal the whole rig, then remove the engine and electronics and abandon the boat.
bigz posted 10-31-2000 06:14 AM ET (US)
Know it is a pain -- but I would suggest getting some jack stands and removing the wheels or at least one --- and chaining the outboard to the stern lift eye with a good padlock --- thiefs need to move fast if they figure they have to jack up replace rims and tires night discourage them completely there is always easier fish to fry -- Z
dfmcintyre posted 10-31-2000 07:09 AM ET (US)
hauptjm -
I'd pay REALLY close attention to what your neighbor saw. That's a wake up call if I've ever saw one!
If you have a wireless alarm system in your home, one thought would be to pickup another detector and mount it towards the boat. Check smarthome.com in the security section for additional ideas. I also like the thought of jack stands and removing one or both wheels.
A early morning boat inspection means nothing but trouble, in this cops view.
Lil Whaler Lover posted 10-31-2000 07:22 AM ET (US)
hauptjm,
Suggest that you install motion detector lights ASAP! Talk to an electrician as they may be able to tie it into a simple noise alarm in your bedroom that you can turn off or on at your pleasure.
I understand that there are two things night thieves hate: 1. Light and 2. Noise. Try to provide one or both for their pleasure.
Good luck protecting your property. Dave
lhg posted 10-31-2000 01:24 PM ET (US)
The insurance claims people tell me 3am - 4am is the preferred time for theft of a vehicle or boat. The "night" people have gone to bed, and the "earlybirds" aren't up yet, and usually the cops are no where to be found!
hauptjm posted 10-31-2000 04:40 PM ET (US)
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I've installed a motion detector and I'm working on an alarm. We've actualy had several motors taken off the hulls right in driveways around town over the last few years. The only thing I figure is that the thieves are using some kind of portable engine hoist. Three normal adult men can't wing a 150 by hand. In addition, I'm going to chain the engine to the stern eyes. I agree that slowing a thief down goes a long way. These cowards always go for the easiest target. Thanks again.
lhg posted 07-12-2001 06:35 PM ET (US)
Bringing this back up since it's a current topic.
Ferdinando posted 07-13-2001 08:12 AM ET (US)
Boy, Am I glad I didn't pay any attention to the NADA price. I sold my 1985 15' SS for $10,000 to the first buyer........Fred.
Whaletosh posted 07-13-2001 09:10 AM ET (US)
Larry,
Boat US has 4 different insurance programs. Two for most boats (sail or power), One for PWCs, and one for High Perf. Bass Boats.
The yacht policy is an agreed upon value policy. I have this on the Whaletosh. This policy lets the customer set the value, with the insurance carrier approving the amount. The carrier (CNA) isn't going to approve a value of $100K on a Montauk, but a reasonable amount is going to be accepted.
The second type, called the Boat Saver, is a cash value policy. This is entirely inappropriate for Whalers, because the cash value is determined by the insurance carrier. We all know that the cash value used by the insurance carrier is going to be low for a Whaler.
JimU posted 07-13-2001 11:42 AM ET (US)
My insurance company is USAA. They carry all my insurance, homeowners and persponal liability, auto, and boat. I own three whalers, two 16-7's and a 13 sport. In all cases they insured the boats' replacement value that I placed on the boat separate from the engines. The two 16-7's have an insured replacement value of $10,000 and the 13 has an insured replacement value of $6,000. (The 16-7's are 1970 and 1971 vinatage and the 13 is a 1982 model.) The rates are quite reasonable-under $200 per boat including laibility.
Bigshot posted 07-13-2001 01:28 PM ET (US)
Man I almost bought a bunch of 15's and shipped them to Fred's town, but Puerto Rico does not count. In the islands they get $4k+ for a new 9.9.
Ferdinando posted 07-13-2001 09:17 PM ET (US)
Bigshot:
Belive it or not outboards down here in San Juan are cheaper then in the states (don't ask me why?). A 10hp 2 stroke will go for about 1800 bucks. A new 90hp 17' Montauk will set you back about 25K. The reason I did get ten grand for my 15' (cost me 9600 in 1986)was that it was in super super mint condition and the only extra it did not have was radar!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fred
Toad2001 posted 07-13-2001 09:51 PM ET (US)
NADA is not accurate.
For my 32' Trawler the NADA figure was about 15% of its actual value/appraisal/insured value.
I wish NADA was used to calculate tax at time of purchase!
I insure my 15' whaler (as a tender) at 1% of replacement cost ($60 for $6000 USD).
Bet your ass if there was a claim, thats what they'd be paying.
NADA is also inaccurate for cars. A reacent check showed me that a 73' mustang was very high, and an 81' Porsche was very low compared to REALITY...
Drew (Vancouver BC)
Duncan posted 07-13-2001 10:05 PM ET (US)
Lil Whaler Lover omitted the third thing boat thieves hate...AN ASS FULL OF BUCKSHOT!
(sorry, i forgot my anti-redneck medication today)
lhg posted 07-13-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)
NADA is supported by the various industries they publish values for, including insurance. It is intentionally lowballed, and artificially devalued, for use by the Dealership networks on trade-ins, etc. They all agree to stick by it religiously, and a buyer/seller doesn't have much of a chance. It is not published for the Consumer's interest at all.
You want to take a bath? Trade in a boat or outboard engine! They'll insist on the validity of NADA or something equal.

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Author	Topic: #@!^%~ whaler insurance
matt	posted 03-18-2000 12:05 AM ET (US) i have a 1985 15'sport with a 70 johnson. my insurance company uses the blue book for boat values.they value it at 1200.00,i could'nt buy another one for double that.plus that does'nt include the deductible.the boat is too old to get replacement insurance, so ,what do all of you do?
lhg	posted 03-18-2000 02:19 PM ET (US) As an Independent Insurance Agent & Broker, maybe I can give you some helpful information. First of all, you are correct regarding published valuations of Whalers. They are almost always too low, and below true market value of the boats, especially if it is an out of production Classic model. But you have to realize that these guides, such as NADA & BUC, help insurance companies settle claims in their favor, and help dealers buy low when taking boats in on trade. They are not published for the benefit of the public. Almost every Classic Whaler owner will take a large loss on an insurance settlement on his boat, particularly if it is a total loss. Here's what you should do. First of all, have your Agent write your policy on an "AGREED AMOUNT" basis, in which the Company agrees to pay you based on the YOUR previously submitted data specifying the value of your rig. They AGREE not to contest your valuation if it's legitimate. Not all insurance companies will do this, and your Agent may have to look around around to find such a company. Or you may have to call another Agency. Chubb Insurance Co is one such company that I use for this purpose, but you will have to have your home and auto insurance with them also. This is not "price shoppers" insurance. You will pay more for the fact that you are getting more, and for the peace of mind. Some companies use "STATED VALUE" coverage, such as the Boat US carrier, where you can "state" what YOU think the rig is worth, but they will still use the guides as the basis for their settlements, and they are not obligated to pay the value you stated. You will still have a hassle. If you have to live with a conventional or stated value boat insurance policy, you should prepare a carefully itemized list of EVERYTHING in or on your boat, with separate sections for engine items and trailer items, and show the value of each individual item. You'll be amazed what you have spent! Those boat guide valuations list a boat in it's minimal configuration. On Whalers, for instance, even the Igloo Cooler seat & floor cleats is an option, and would not be included in the valuation. Same for navigation lights on the smaller models. Outboard engines are also listed as "bare engines", not including controls & harnesses, tie bars, gauges, fuel lines & filters, etc, to say nothing of the cost a dealer would charge for re-rigging. So when you have a nice listing prepared, send it to your Agent and request coverage in the amount you have listed. You should have four items: 1. boat and it's permanently installed accessories, electronics & upgrades. 2. Engine(s) and all accessories & controls specifically related to the engines. 3. Trailer and any accessories or upgrades you have added. 4. Non-permanent boating accessories, such as life jackets, cushions, paddles, water skis, etc. The insurance company may refuse to insure your rig for your valuation without an independent appraisal, but at least they will know what you've got. If that is the case, look for another company, since you cannot recover more than the limit of the policy. For your own records, also take detailed pictures of engines, trailer, boat etc, so you will have some proof of what you've got and what condition it was in. All insurance policies basically cover you on an ACTUAL CASH VALUE basis, which means average market valuation. So the other thing you will have to do after a loss, is find other boats & engines like yours for sale, and prove to the insurance company that the "actual cash value" is higher than what the book shows, based on similar Whalers for sale. This would be the case if you have a "Stated Value" type policy. They will grudingly have to pay you that value if you hang tough. The more pristine & classic your boat is, to more difficulty you will have in proving it's higher value, because there will be less to compare with. Mint condition classic whalers are not often for sale. So that's lesson 101 in Classic Whaler boat insurance. If your boat is 1984 or newer, you can get a free NADA valuation by going to nada.com You'll be shocked!
matt	posted 03-18-2000 10:24 PM ET (US) thanks for the low down i'm printing it so i can cipher on it all next week.think i'll need it.i went to nada like you said,and yes i was surprised that my 15'whaler is worth 1000.00 including bimini and electronics.i didnt see a box to include trailer so i guess it was included.?hope you dont mind if i ask you more questions as i try to insure my boat.thanks matt corey
David Reid	posted 03-20-2000 11:04 AM ET (US) Insure for the max, including motor, then be careful! That's gotten me to sleep at night for a long time, through a 17' and my current 18.5'.
bajadude	posted 03-26-2000 09:13 PM ET (US) That's right. The NADA book is the one dealer's use to screw you when you trade in your boat... the BUC book is a bit more realistic, but take the afformentioned advice and insure for "stated value" and be prepared to pay more for it. JK
wds	posted 05-20-2000 10:30 AM ET (US) I believe the NADA book just applies a fixed depreciation rate per year, and does not look at the market. Keep copies of newspaper ads, internet listings, and other records that establish the value of your boat. These can be used to convince the insurance company that the book is wrong. 15' Whalers here sell for $5-6M and go within 24 hours, but the book puts it at about $3,000 retail!
Pat Smith	posted 07-15-2000 06:14 PM ET (US) I added my boat to my home owners insurance,had to be under 26 ft.Cost me $121.00 added per year.(1985 outrage 18ft.)
lhg	posted 07-17-2000 12:02 AM ET (US) Pat: You had better be sure your insurance agent knows what they're doing! It sounds like you got liability insurance only, and nothing for the value of the boat. I have never heard of a boat with 150HP being insured for physical damage under an HO policy. You need a comprehensive boat policy for a craft like an 18 outrage.
lhg	posted 10-27-2000 06:47 PM ET (US) Since insurance is a current topic, just bringing this buried thread back up to the top for review by those interested.
hauptjm	posted 10-30-2000 03:40 PM ET (US) Larry, Great idea! I think we need to keep this a current topic. I am currently going through a situation right now. My next-door neighbor spotted 3 guys on 2 different nights at 1:00am walking around my boat in my driveway in the last week. I'm obviously being cased for a rip-off. I'm trying to do what I can to thwart any thievery, but as they say, if someone wants something bad enough, they'll get it. Nonetheless, this worries me in regard to what we would go through if one of these SOBs were to get my boat (or engine, gear, etc.). I too am surprised that a homeowner�s policy would adequately cover an Outrage at all. I would love to pay only $120.00 a year. Mine runs over $500.00/year.
lhg	posted 10-30-2000 04:02 PM ET (US) Jim: They're probably interested in the engine, particularly if it's relatively new and in good shape. The boat's too hard to get rid of, but outboard engines are a piece of cake. I'm told there's a huge market for them in Latin America and the Islands, where they cost a fortune new. They steal the whole rig, then remove the engine and electronics and abandon the boat.
bigz	posted 10-31-2000 06:14 AM ET (US) Know it is a pain -- but I would suggest getting some jack stands and removing the wheels or at least one --- and chaining the outboard to the stern lift eye with a good padlock --- thiefs need to move fast if they figure they have to jack up replace rims and tires night discourage them completely there is always easier fish to fry -- Z
dfmcintyre	posted 10-31-2000 07:09 AM ET (US) hauptjm - I'd pay REALLY close attention to what your neighbor saw. That's a wake up call if I've ever saw one! If you have a wireless alarm system in your home, one thought would be to pickup another detector and mount it towards the boat. Check smarthome.com in the security section for additional ideas. I also like the thought of jack stands and removing one or both wheels. A early morning boat inspection means nothing but trouble, in this cops view.
Lil Whaler Lover	posted 10-31-2000 07:22 AM ET (US) hauptjm, Suggest that you install motion detector lights ASAP! Talk to an electrician as they may be able to tie it into a simple noise alarm in your bedroom that you can turn off or on at your pleasure. I understand that there are two things night thieves hate: 1. Light and 2. Noise. Try to provide one or both for their pleasure. Good luck protecting your property. Dave
lhg	posted 10-31-2000 01:24 PM ET (US) The insurance claims people tell me 3am - 4am is the preferred time for theft of a vehicle or boat. The "night" people have gone to bed, and the "earlybirds" aren't up yet, and usually the cops are no where to be found!
hauptjm	posted 10-31-2000 04:40 PM ET (US) Thanks for all of the suggestions. I've installed a motion detector and I'm working on an alarm. We've actualy had several motors taken off the hulls right in driveways around town over the last few years. The only thing I figure is that the thieves are using some kind of portable engine hoist. Three normal adult men can't wing a 150 by hand. In addition, I'm going to chain the engine to the stern eyes. I agree that slowing a thief down goes a long way. These cowards always go for the easiest target. Thanks again.
lhg	posted 07-12-2001 06:35 PM ET (US) Bringing this back up since it's a current topic.
Ferdinando	posted 07-13-2001 08:12 AM ET (US) Boy, Am I glad I didn't pay any attention to the NADA price. I sold my 1985 15' SS for $10,000 to the first buyer........Fred.
Whaletosh	posted 07-13-2001 09:10 AM ET (US) Larry, Boat US has 4 different insurance programs. Two for most boats (sail or power), One for PWCs, and one for High Perf. Bass Boats. The yacht policy is an agreed upon value policy. I have this on the Whaletosh. This policy lets the customer set the value, with the insurance carrier approving the amount. The carrier (CNA) isn't going to approve a value of $100K on a Montauk, but a reasonable amount is going to be accepted. The second type, called the Boat Saver, is a cash value policy. This is entirely inappropriate for Whalers, because the cash value is determined by the insurance carrier. We all know that the cash value used by the insurance carrier is going to be low for a Whaler.
JimU	posted 07-13-2001 11:42 AM ET (US) My insurance company is USAA. They carry all my insurance, homeowners and persponal liability, auto, and boat. I own three whalers, two 16-7's and a 13 sport. In all cases they insured the boats' replacement value that I placed on the boat separate from the engines. The two 16-7's have an insured replacement value of $10,000 and the 13 has an insured replacement value of $6,000. (The 16-7's are 1970 and 1971 vinatage and the 13 is a 1982 model.) The rates are quite reasonable-under $200 per boat including laibility.
Bigshot	posted 07-13-2001 01:28 PM ET (US) Man I almost bought a bunch of 15's and shipped them to Fred's town, but Puerto Rico does not count. In the islands they get $4k+ for a new 9.9.
Ferdinando	posted 07-13-2001 09:17 PM ET (US) Bigshot: Belive it or not outboards down here in San Juan are cheaper then in the states (don't ask me why?). A 10hp 2 stroke will go for about 1800 bucks. A new 90hp 17' Montauk will set you back about 25K. The reason I did get ten grand for my 15' (cost me 9600 in 1986)was that it was in super super mint condition and the only extra it did not have was radar!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fred
Toad2001	posted 07-13-2001 09:51 PM ET (US) NADA is not accurate. For my 32' Trawler the NADA figure was about 15% of its actual value/appraisal/insured value. I wish NADA was used to calculate tax at time of purchase! I insure my 15' whaler (as a tender) at 1% of replacement cost ($60 for $6000 USD). Bet your ass if there was a claim, thats what they'd be paying. NADA is also inaccurate for cars. A reacent check showed me that a 73' mustang was very high, and an 81' Porsche was very low compared to REALITY... Drew (Vancouver BC)
Duncan	posted 07-13-2001 10:05 PM ET (US) Lil Whaler Lover omitted the third thing boat thieves hate...AN ASS FULL OF BUCKSHOT! (sorry, i forgot my anti-redneck medication today)
lhg	posted 07-13-2001 11:00 PM ET (US) NADA is supported by the various industries they publish values for, including insurance. It is intentionally lowballed, and artificially devalued, for use by the Dealership networks on trade-ins, etc. They all agree to stick by it religiously, and a buyer/seller doesn't have much of a chance. It is not published for the Consumer's interest at all. You want to take a bath? Trade in a boat or outboard engine! They'll insist on the validity of NADA or something equal.