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Author Topic:   Honda Motors
Landlocked posted 05-30-2001 09:55 PM ET (US)   Profile for Landlocked   Send Email to Landlocked  
After a weekend on Dale Hollow Lake, I have finally conceeded that my old 78 Johnson 85's days are - in fact - numbered. There are a lot of rattles where there weren't, Top speed on the montauk with only myself (200lbs) wife (much less than 200lbs) and baby (20lbs) is 30mph at WOT (gps speed over ground). Fuel economy doesn't exist - 9 gallons for every 20-22 miles.... Filled up one of the twelve gallon tanks 3 times with the same results.... Ran only at 3/4 throttle about - 21 mph.

I am seriously starting the process of looking at new motors. I'll probably make it through this season but I've lost confidence - and if you spend all day worrying about not getting home - you lose a little of the fun.

I've looked back through the historical postings and I see a lot of conversations recomending Yamaha's in the 70 hp range...found some good advice.

I'm interested in the Yamaha's but for some reason - mostly experience with lawn equipment and generators I guess - I'm particularly fond of Honda motors. Anybody have an opinion on the 75hp or 90hp Honda's on the Montauk? (preferably 4 stroke)

L.

whalernut posted 05-30-2001 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalernut  Send Email to whalernut     
Hondas are all 4-strokers and they are heavy. You would probably be better offf in the 50-60h.p. range and save the weight, it would be fine for cruising and fishing. Regards-Jack Graner.
lhg posted 05-30-2001 10:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
This may not be popular, but you asked for opinions. Over the 50HP size, Hondas, even though they claim to be the leader in 4 strokes, are not generally rated as highly as the other major brands in the testing I have seen.

Their one strong suit seems to be smoothness of idle. Nobody else compares, evidently.
Has something to do with the crankshaft or camshaft design, but I'm no engine expert. But in weight, cost, fuel economy, top speed, acceleration, they are at the bottom of the rankings. I take this not to mean they are not good, reliable engines. People that have them swear by them.

For me, a super smooth, quiet idle doesn't outweigh the advantages of the other characteristics of the Mercury, Yamaha and Suzuki. At least look at those also. From what I understand, Mercury, basically the same engine as Yamaha, is the lowest in cost and has the most available service network, if that's important to you.

I think the Hondas are funny looking, kind of odd shaped, engines, but that is purely personal.

B Bear posted 05-30-2001 10:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
I have a Honda 90.
The Honda 75 is a detuned 90 so they weigh the same, and there is only a small price difference between the two. So if you go for a Honda make it the 90. I have seen Honda 90s on Montauks, in fact there there is a forum member that has one on his and is pleased as punch.
The engine uses a regular Honda CIVIC oil filter and 10 - 30 SAE motor oil. The oil change is every 100 hours and easier to change than on my truck. It has proven reliability, and is a very sweet engine. If you look in the General Forum in the "No Snickers Please" thread there is a Cohasset with a Honda 90 being considered.
The warranty is one of the best, 3 years bumper to bumper except for the water pump and plugs, on the rest of the other engine makes you will see that items covered are dropped off as the warranty gets older.
This engine has been around long enough to have all the bugs removed and are virtuely trouble free.
Bear
Landlocked posted 05-30-2001 10:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Landlocked  Send Email to Landlocked     
Appreciate the honest input... If you look at their website or talk to the dealers - honda's are the best thing since gravy. I'd have to agree based souly on my experience with their commercial motors - generators, compressors, etc. Don't know anything about their boat motors though.

Guess I was feeling like if the boat motors are half as good as their other products - must be the best....

Here is what I need/would like to have - in order of importance....

Long life and Reliability ...
Cruise mid to upper twenties.
WOT As close to 40 as I can get
4 stroke preferably...

Average load - Human - ~360-370
Canine - 78
Beer, gas, gear, 200


Any suggestions? I know, I know, Yam 70.

Landlocked posted 05-30-2001 10:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Landlocked  Send Email to Landlocked     
Bear

Any ideas of the hours do you have on your Honda? What boat? Any problems noticed with weight?

B Bear posted 05-30-2001 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Landlocked,
I have a new 2000 Honda 90 purchased in September 2000 on a 2001 16 Dauntless. I have about 70 hours on the engine. At least 25 of those hours was in gear idling producing a trolling speed of around 2 mph. The engine is listed at 384 lb. the hull is rated for a max engine weight of 455 lb. so there is no problem with weight concerning my hull.
1300 lb. hull
270 lb fuel, 45 gal@6lb/gal
300 lb gear
500 lb me and one big friend
2370 lb total
35.7 mph gps WOT @ 5500 rpm with a 13.25 X 17 Propeller. Just went out yesterday and checked out the WOT. The 90 is rated WOT 5000 - 6000 rpm.
According to the fromula found in Clark Roberts Thread "performance predictions ans some rules of thumb" in the Performance forum. the calculation worked out to 35.07 mph.
Bear
FISHNFF posted 05-31-2001 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for FISHNFF  Send Email to FISHNFF     
I have a Merc 90 4 stroke. I got it mainly for the price, dealer network, and close relation to the Yamaha (1st choice). I had some motor problems (acceleration stalling) which have been worked out and now love it. The boat performed and rode better with my old motor (Merc 75 2s) but love the smooth idle and fuel economy. In actual fishing conditions (drifting, running in moderate seas, WOT in calm water, trolling), I am seeing aroung 6MPG. At trolling speeds <1000RPM, it barely sips fumes! If speed is not a big issue (It will hit 38.5knots light, 36.8 rigged to fish) I would look at a 70 Suzuki/Evinrude. Six friends have this on Montauks and will run 32 knots all day and do it smoother, quieter, and with less fuel than me. Lastly, I do not like the lower unit on my Merc. The gear ratio (2.07) is too high compared to my Merc 75 and Honda(both 2.31 Merc units). It gives up torque which 4 strokes need. The new Suzuki 90/115 has a 2.59!
jjt posted 05-31-2001 06:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for jjt  Send Email to jjt     
LL,
I own a 96' montauk with a 90 Honda. My opinion is not going to be as informative and technical as some of the experts on this forum. They really know their stuff!!! However,in my humble opinion, without all the technical aspects to contend with, I love the montauk and the honda that powers her. It is very quiet. It has plenty of power, (And I love to go FAST!)Gas seems to last forever. The extra pounds are not noticed at all. I must say, I dont ever even think about the motor, thats how much I like it! To top it all off a good friend of mine is a boat mechanic, and he swears by them. Sorry for the lack of technical info to sell you on, I'm to busy having a great time on the water to worry about all that! Good luck and enjoy.
Landlocked posted 05-31-2001 08:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Landlocked  Send Email to Landlocked     
Thanks for all opinions - technical and not so... Any outboard that performs well enough for you not to even have that tickel of worry in the back of your mind - must be pretty darn good.... Lately I'm having trouble enjoying being on the water because I'm afraid I'm going to end up out there a lot longer than I planned.

I'm still really interested in the Honda's Most of my boating is in relatively calm inland lakes and rivers. I don't think the extra weight will affect me as much as some.

I'm going to spend some time researching the archive info on the Yam and Merc as well. Just don't have a good feeling about Johnson right now - although that's all I've ever owned.

I'll keep you posted.

L

compounder posted 05-31-2001 10:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for compounder  Send Email to compounder     
Landlocked, I looked closely at the Honda 90 when trying to decide on a engine for my Montauk. I really wanted one, but just could not get past the two sticking points of price and weight.

The price thing is easy to analyze.....either you have the money and want to spend it on a motor or not! I had the money but could not rationalize paying
TWICE as much as for a comparable two-stroke.

I have several Montauks within spitting distance of the creek I live on. One of them has a Honda 90 and it really does sit way too low in the stern. The local Honda/Yamaha dealer told me that Honda was real conservative (deceptive?) with their published weights. The dry weight listed in the literature is apparently quite a bit lower than an actual engine installed on a boat.

Anyway, good luck with your decision, and I hope you are happy with what you decide on.

Joe

Jim Bennett posted 06-01-2001 12:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jim Bennett  Send Email to Jim Bennett     
Landlocked,
My 2 cents! I have a 68 Sakonnet with 79 115 Merc, no power trim, in Ohio. Untrimmed my Whaler gets close to 45 mph on smooth water with 1 or 2 people in boat. In Florida I have a 97 Aquasport Osprey with a 98 Honda 90 with power trim. Again with 2 people aboard I get close to 45 mph trimmed on smooth intercoastal. Love both my boats and both motors. No question however about better quietness and economy with Honda and despite lhg feelings I think its pretty(HA). When I went for test drive last Dec at dealers they had engine idling when I approached boat at dock. Dealer said, "Listen, the splashing of the 'pisser' makes more noise than the motor"! He was right!
LarryN posted 06-01-2001 06:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for LarryN  Send Email to LarryN     
In an issue of "Offshore" magazine from last year, a writer reviewed (IIRC) 4 outboards for his Montauk. If anyone is interested I will get the exact issue, which I happened to have under my bed, and read just last night.
Landlocked posted 06-01-2001 06:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Landlocked  Send Email to Landlocked     
Larry,

That publication definately sounds like what I need to look at right now... Can you post the citation?

LL

LarryN posted 06-02-2001 03:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for LarryN  Send Email to LarryN     
Landlocked, sorry for my delay in responding. The issue of Offshore was Nov 2000. The article was written by John Page Williams, and he tests a merc 90 two stroke, Suzuki 70 4 stroke, Honda 50 and Merc 60 Big Foot (4 stroke). He mentions the Honda 90 in the article, but since he had already tested it, there are no performance numbers.) His test bed, of course, is a Montauk. If you cannot find this issue, let me know and I will copy the article.
reelescape1 posted 06-02-2001 06:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
One of the last issues of either Saltwater Sportsman or Sport Fishing compared suzuiki, yam., honda, merc. 4 strokes...the winner (average) was suz., they said the yam. and merc. vibrated too much at idle for thier liking, honda was too heavy-pricy...I looked for the copy but its gone, you might could chase down the web site!! Personally, if I repower my 22', I'll go with twin yam. 115 4 strokes...I have twin evin. 88 spls now.
lhg posted 06-03-2001 04:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I also saw that 4 stroke 115 article, and my post above was based on what it contained as testing the various models.

The thing that struck me is that these magazines don't come across as being real objective. They have to find a little good, and bad, about each, to keep the advertizers happy. They never make opinions or overall rankings. The magazine buying public is finally starting to complain about this style of advertizing masked as journalism and testing.

Twin 115 4 strokes could be the ultimate power for an Outrage 22, if they are light enough. Sounds very nice, but be careful of weight. I've heard the 22 sits a little low in the stern with heavy twins on it, especially with the extra capacity 129 gallon tank.

B Bear posted 06-05-2001 12:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
The four stroke 115 HP outboard test were in "Boating" May 2001, volume 74,page 234.
The test boat was a pathfinder 1900 V with the approx displacement weight of 1,165 lb.s.
This is part of what they said about Hondas in their conclusion. "The Honda BF 115 suffered from it's weight, and it was certainly at a disadvantage placed on a boat as light as the Pathffinder 1900. The BF 115 is a solid motor, but if you like Hondas, we suggest that you choose the BF 90 for a boat of this weight and configuration."
The last sentence was,"In the end, we choose this Suzuki becuase it offers the best all-roung package of performance and quiet operation."

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