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Author Topic:   22' vs 25' outrages
george nagy posted 07-06-2001 08:56 AM ET (US)   Profile for george nagy   Send Email to george nagy  
I am considering purchasing a larger outrage. I was trying to compare th advantages / disadvantages between a 25' outrage with a single 250 yamaha and lets say a 22' with a 225 johnson. Both hulls are the same year. The yamaha is afew years newer. Having said all this, and the opinions on engines and engine age what about the overall performance,size,design etc.. of each hull. You guys are the experts, let me know your opinions.
Bigshot posted 07-06-2001 09:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Too general of a question George. You need to decide what size is better for you. 2 different animals here. Go look and see for yourself. If you have a 17' boat now, that 25 will be like the Queen Mary. If you are looking to go 40 miles out, the 22 does not usually carry enough gas.
Contender25 posted 07-06-2001 12:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Contender25  Send Email to Contender25     
George-

Hardly general. Lets see, OMC in troubles and the Yamaha is newer, no real question there. I would choose the 25 on the basis of the engine alone. Having grown up on the 18, 20, 22, and 25. I would have to tell you to go with the 25 because sooner or later you will want it anyway.

Chesapeake posted 07-06-2001 03:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chesapeake  Send Email to Chesapeake     
I love reading this banter about which is better, this boat or that boat. And then, every once in a while, someone comes out with a real beauty that makes you say, "Hmm, well that's pretty smart." Contender, your line about buying the 25, 'because sooner or later your going to want it anyway' cracked me up and I have been laughing for 5 minutes.

Thanks for plain sense reminder on our generally shared proclivity towards "two-foot-itis". Truer words...

Bigshot posted 07-07-2001 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I own a 17' cause I do not or never want a gas guzzling, non-trailerable(for the most part) giant underpowered whale. But that is not the issue here. What does George want, what are the prices, etc? Question is too general and compares apples to oranges.
kingfish posted 07-07-2001 10:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Amen, Chesapeake...

George, I can't respond from experience regarding the 25, except to the extent that I have ridden in one, and, as you would expect, it takes heavier seas better than the 22.

Whether the 25 would be underpowered with 250 hp is *purely* a matter of opinion. There are members here who have 25's with single 250's and wouldn't do it any other way. There are also members who have twin 200's on a 25 and wouldn't do it any other way.

Both the 22 and the 25 will require a larger more powerful tow vehicle than that with which you could get by for a 17 or 18, if you are going to tow any distance at all. I have towed my 22 with a Mercury Mountaineer on round trips in the 700 mile range, and found it would work, *but* I always felt in the seat of my pants that the towee was bigger and badder than the tower. So I moved up to a Yukon with towing package and every other heavy duty option that was available on a '99. It tows my 22 supremely well, it feels like the tow vehicle is in control rather than the towed boat, and we have successfully and easily round-tripped in the 3000 mile range. For comparison sake, with the same Yukon, I have towed a 25'Parker (27' +/- with pulpit, 9'-6" beam, 6500# +/- on the hoof with motor, gas and trailer) about a thousand miles one way and blew through the mountains of North Carolina and Tennessee at 70 mph., with a weight-distributing hitch. Not a 25 Outrage, but a bigger package all around. No problem.

Having said that, I'm certain that the 25 is a more ponderous boat to store, hook up, tow, launch and retrieve than the 22. A 22 is more ponderous to do all those things than a 17 or 18. Not rocket science.

My 22 has a 77 gal tank (some 22's have larger tanks, 125 gal I think, and don't have the rear baitwell). If you are a canyon fisherman, it is a purely mathematical equation that you can't go as far, everything else being equal, on 77 gallons as you can on 125. As has been stated elsewhere in the forum, a portable 25 or 30 gal tank under the pilot seat or leaning post has been used successfully to help that condition out. I have never been wanting for fuel with my 22 (1992 Evinrude 225), but my offshore expeditions have been limited thus far (by considerations other than fuel) to about 20 miles each way. The range is way beyond that, but individual preferences and safe operating margins given ambient conditions will have the ultimate effect on how far you want to get away from a fuel source with 225 hp and 77 gal of gas. While I don't have an accurate rate of fuel at given speed to report, I can tell you that I have gone well over 100 miles at cruising speeds in the 25 mph to 35 mph range and have had fuel left.

My 22 performs marvelously with 225 hp. I don't have a kicker yet, (I will), and so I can't troll as slowly as I'd like without mechanical intervention. I can break 50 mph (gps) with a Mills suntop flying and three people on board.

Hope this has been of help-

kingfish

george nagy posted 07-07-2001 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
Kingfish, I appreciate your comments, I Know how to scale a whaler on condition, price, etc..etc.. but I wanted to hear nitty gritty on handling since just an occasional test run won't really give satisfactory amounts of real life information (experience), especially when you have that whaler buying face on! I have an explorer with an eight cylander so towing may be an issue, however neither of these boats come with a trailer, and I currently would plan to moore in the water all the time. I would like to go on little trips to the keys, but I will probably keep the 18' (well perhaps). I know one thing for sure the 77 gallon capacity in the 22' could be a problem as I plan to be Bahama bound quite often which is a prime reason for wanting to purchase a larger hull with a new/ newer motor. I could always install an above deck tank but I don't really want to sacrifice on deck cooler space. I was intrigued by the idea of putting a freswater tank in the rear livewell space , having a freshwater system seems to be a must these days I.E.(sea lice). The space on the side of the house only affords me ten feet in width so the 22' would probably fit better than the 25' since it is only a few inches wider in the beam than my 18'.

As for those who want details they are as follows:

#1 1987 25 outrage (no bottom paint) with a 1994-1996? yamaha 250. (need to get verification on engine year from owner)

#2 1987 22 outrage (bottom paint but lift stored) with a 1993 johnson ocean runner 225.

Both boats are seemingly the same condition ( oh the 22' has fiberglass gunnels and the larger console).

I was hoping that someone with a 25' with twins and those who have singles would really spill the perverbial beans and give me all they got!

I would love to hear whatever you guys have to say about your boats, good, bad, and indifferent. Afterall this site is full of those who are very knowledgeable and experienced with many models and I could really benefit from thier experiences and thier opinions.

I appreciate those comments that have been made so far. I just wish there was more material on the intricacies of each model, for instance I think that twins would be better for crossing to the Bahamas but the added fuel consumption would kill me especially with the 22's tiny tank. On the other hand if some day I would have to repower having a single will be much cheaper! I know that a new 2001 yamaha 150 saltwater non hpdi runs around $9400 with controls double that for twins plus syncros and counter rotating.

Another opinion I have about twin engine installations is that it makes it awfully tight getting in and out the stern which is my prefered ingress/ egress area on my 18'. I also think that having the battery and oiltank storage on the 25' could be nice.

One thing I would like to know is if the 22' and 25' with the power listed above would handle similarly to my 18' with a 150 especially in the speed catagory. Afterall my 18' is a rocket.

Would it be worth going to a 22' from the 18'? Is the 25'really that much bigger?

I don't really have "two foot itis" as they say I'm just forced to repower soon and want to know if I should just move up instead.

well thanks to all!

george nagy posted 07-07-2001 10:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
P.S. the 25' is just under $20,000 US and the 22' is around $ 16,500 US. for those who are curious.
Bigshot posted 07-08-2001 06:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Thank you George, that is the kinda info. I need. Consider the 25 will be almost as big of a difference over the 22 as the 22 is over your 18. Bottom paint on the 25 will cost a few $$ too. Price is nice on that 22. 25 has 8' beam, 22 7.5'. 23 is 3300lbs, 22 is 2050. Both are hull weights only. 25 has 140 gals, 22 has 77 or 125. 25 is much bigger and heavier but would be a great Bahama cruiser, also you need the fuel. 22 is a great step-up from your 18, I think the 25 is a great step up from the 22. DEpends on how much climbing you care to do.I think a test drive is in order, especially on a little rougher day. Good luck on what you chose. My choice would be a 22 with twin 115 4 strokes and that would be a Bahama Momma.
OutrageMan posted 07-09-2001 07:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
I have a 1991 22' Outrage w/ Whaler Drive. It is pushed by a 1991 Yamaha 250 V-x. It also has a large T-top. I can push it to 43 mph. My fuel flow meter shows 32 gph at that RPM (5200). However, at 3800 I am going about 31 (GPS speeds), and am burning 12.5 gph. In 4 hours that is 124 miles with plenty of reserve from my 77 gal tank.

This boat is also the best ride I have ever had in a Whaler.

I a keep it in a slip, but when I do need to tow it, it is really not a problem with anything bigger than an Explorer.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to e-mail me.

Brian

Bigshot posted 07-09-2001 10:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
that is all you get on top? I would think with that cruise, your top would be better. What is the redline? 5200 sounds low, might want to drop an inch of pitch.
lhg posted 07-09-2001 09:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Comparing speeds of Outrageman's 22 to Kingfish's 22, (assuming both engines are running properly), I would assume the 7 mph difference is because of the Tee Top and Whaler Drive. Tee tops EAT top end speed, (my radar arch slowed mine down by about 2 mph) and the Whaler Drive unit slows the boat down by 3-4mph also, mostly from increased hull drag. It does not run free of the water when planing. I was told this by the factory when I ordered my 25. That's why the WD's were designed for twins and given higher HP ratings. The increased wetted hull length increased the HP formula. The boat is also about 250lbs heavier.

George, you sound like a guy who wants to be talked into a 25! You're probably right. In the winter of '89 I was exactly where you are
- owning an 18 and wanting a bigger boat. I did the logical thing. I decided on a 22 WD, specified exactly what I wanted in factory options, and called at least 10 Dealers for a quote, boat only. A Dealer in Delray Beach FL was lowest, so I gave him the order by mail, and a $1000 check. Two weeks later, I showed up to give him the required additional $4000 and talk about a trailer. He had a 25 WD sitting in front of his shop, quite by coincidence. It looked HUGE out of the water, but I had to climb in anyway and check it out. I remember saying to the woman with me, "wow, this will be my NEXT whaler" (meaning after the 22). She said, "well that's dumb, why don't you just get a 25 now?" I'm thinking this is way too big to trail, pull, handle, etc. 7-foot itis is too much! But I got the price anyway from the Dealer - add $5000 for a 25. He said he could switch the order over for me, since the boat wouldn't be built for 3 months. Called him two days later and did it!

Getting back to the boat, I think the 22 is a great boat, but the 25 is a LOT more boat than the 22, meaning for some it may not be right. The dimensions are deceptive, but the 60% greater weight is not. It tells the story. Louie Kokinis told me that the CPD guys told him, when he bought his 22, that the 25 was their BEST hull, even better than the 27. I love mine, and have never looked back. It is a machine. It is designed for twin engines, and I think putting a big single on it is a crime. Penny wise and pound foolish. Why cripple an offshore designed hull with one leg. So expect to pay for twin engines. Any type will do, 135hp and up. The big 140 gallon fuel tank is a plus, giving you at least a 300 mile range with twin 150's. The boat will go anywhere, in most conditions, including places you shouldn't take it! I'd put it up against the later, larger and heavier 24 and 26 Outrages any day for heavy duty sea keeping and safety, and flexibility of use and weather protection (Mills canvas required). Dougherty knew what he was doing when he designed this hull. It has more interior floor (fishing?) space than a 22, and better accomodates the battery/oil injection tank situation, particularly with twin engines.

With a properly set up keel roller trailer, it is no harder to launch and retrieve than my 18, and much easier than JimH's 20 Revenge on a bunk trailer! The trailer is the key if you're going to have one of these, and move it around!!!! A mid size SUV or Pickup is too small. You need a vehicle with a 7000lb trailering capacity and long wheelbase (Suburban, Excursion, etc preferred).

Like most Whalers, the 25 has one bad ride, a sharp wind driven 2'-3' chop quartering off the bow. It can slap quite a bit in this sea. I usually alter course a little to avoid this if I can. But the boat really keeps its nose up, and I have NEVER taken a wave over the bow! And that includes some 10' sea conditions. An rarely do you get wet at the console. It's an extremely dry boat. I happen to think the standard console, raised 4", is best in this boat, as it takes up so little room. Cooler seats can be used to pick up extra storage, but the boat has a huge well in the bow besides. I am not a fan of large center consoles. I prefer to get weather protection from the various components, alone or together, of the Mills canvas system instead. And I am really NOT a fan of putting a "Jiffy John" in a Whaler, and having it do double duty as a center console! A total waste of valuable space for 10 minutes of head bumping use a day. Offshore seasickness heaven!

To anybody looking for a large classic Outrage/Revenge, I recommend giving the 25 serious consideration.

LarrySherman posted 07-09-2001 11:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for LarrySherman  Send Email to LarrySherman     
lhg,

Reading your post makes me so happy! I've yet to get her in the water, but should be there by Augest, if the wife lets me have a day or two! Keep it coming Larry!

Tom W Clark posted 07-10-2001 01:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
George,

I can't offer any first hand advice on your prediciment, but I'll barge in here anyway and offer some random thoughts.

My last Whaler was an 18 OR and I have often thought what my next one would be. 22 or 25 I ask myself and I keep coming back to two points:

1) Personally I really like the idea of a single engine for simplicity, economy, and lower noise level. I believe Larry when he says the 25 is really a twin engine boat. This is what I have always thought. A 22 with a 225, on the other hand, will be faster than an 18 with a 150. I like that idea a lot!

2) I have owned Whalers from 13 to 18 owning every hull in between in ascending order. There are often these questions here on this forum about "what should I get, a 13 or a 15?" or "a 15 or a 17?" or a 17 or an 18?" Everybody chinmes in about what a huge step up the bigger boat is and how much smoother riding it is, and you know what? They're right! A 15 is a huge step up. The same is true when you step up to a Montauk and then to an Outrage. So I believe Larry again when he points out how much bigger a 25 is. But my point is that I loved every one of the Whalers I have owned and I'm glad I didn't miss out on experiencing the performance and pride of ownership of the smaller ones. My suspicion is this will hold true of the 22 and the 25 for me as well even If I do end up wanting a 25 sooner or later.

We all have to decide for ourselves. It's a personal choice.

But Larry, I do hope you bring your big boat out to the West Coast for that trip to Alaska; I'm dying to go for a ride in it!

jimh posted 07-10-2001 02:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I just want to bear witness to Larry's comments about the ease that his 25-Outrage goes on and off the trailer. When you have the trailer set up properly that boat launches and recovers in a minute or two.

This Sunday we trailed lhg back to the marina in northern Lake Michigan by about five minutes. I tied my boat up, made a pit stop, got my car and drove over to the ramp. In that time he and his son had already recovered both Outrages on their trailers and were off-loading the gear for the long drive south.

So don't sweat a big Whaler on the launch ramp when you have it set up properly.

Louie Kokinis posted 07-10-2001 09:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
George, it looks like you'll need a new tow vehicle for either hull. If you have the room to store the boat, my vote would be for the 25.

Having said that, you should budget for twins. IMO the 25 won’t run well with the single 250. OTOH if (like me) storage is an issue, then the 22 is a great boat. (I had a garage built for mine – the 25 was too tall)

Larry's comment about the guys at CPD is right on. I was asked several times to reconsider before my hull was built. I was also limited to a 22 because of my fishing habits - we trailer the boat many miles, including over mountain ranges. I pull it with a 1 ton diesel dually, and would recommend nothing less than a 3/4 ton for a 22 unless you’re close to the ramp and never intend to cross mountains.

As for rough water, well the larger 25 will obviously be more comfortable, but the 22 will go toe to toe with most boats on the water.

Either way, you definitely wont be disappointed.

Louie

PS I get an honest 54 running at 5800 - 2 people.

reelescape1 posted 07-10-2001 09:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
The local whaler dealer here, Chas. SC, the service dept. manager's personal boat was a 22'. He recently purchased a 25' and took the single 225 Yam from the 22 to the 25. He would be a good source of first hand info for you. Outboard Shop, Charleston Heights, SC
george nagy posted 07-10-2001 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
Thank you all for your comments.

Larry I think you are right about the single on a 25'. I think it would be a great boat, but I'm not really ready to spend more $$$$, especially on a new car/truck, my explorer is equiped with an eight cylander and hope it would be enough for towing a 22'. I will probably never go over a mountain here in florida.

I will try to locate a nice 22' or quite possible buy a new engine for the 18'.

Thanks again!
George

lhg posted 07-10-2001 01:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Louie - Wow, that 225 Merc EFI is fast, especially since you've got the heavier CPD model! Most aren't aware that the conventional 225 EFI is faster than the 225 Optimax.
Bigshot posted 07-10-2001 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
When the 225 EFI came out(94-95?)They touted it as a 250hp. Kind of like the Yamaha Excel.
Louie Kokinis posted 07-12-2001 11:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
George: I think you'd be taking a chance pulling the 22 with an explorer. Not that it can't do it on flat ground, but if anything should happen - hungry lawyers will be coming at you from all directions.

Larry, Bigshot: I was fortunate to have some very knowledgeable folks help me with engine and prop selection. The 225 EFI is supposed to be one of Mercs most reliable. Mine dyno'd over the 225 range, I don't remember the PSI offhand, but it was well over 240 HP. I bought it for reliability, the extra few ponies where an added bonus.

Louie

PS My current 22 outperforms my old 22 outrage with twin 135's.

lhg posted 07-12-2001 06:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Louie and others: I remember well when Mercury brought out the 3 litre 225, both in Carb and EFI versions. It was Mercury's answer to the 250HP 75 degree V-6 that Yamaha had brought out a year before, grabbing a lot of market share, and also a competitor to the old OMC V-8.

As usual, Mercury intentionally rated it low, at 225, so that they could advertize it would blow the doors off the Yamaha 250 (it will) and the OMC 275HP V-8's (it will), even with less HP rating. But like you say, I was told it was putting out more like 240-260HP. This engine is now offered in a 250HP version, and this same block is now offered in a 300HP "Darth Vader" performance model also. If you ever run into a boat with one or two of these, on a boat similar in size to yours, don't try to outrun him - you'll lose.
They sound great, also.

When I repowered my 25, I looked into a pair of these, staying within the 450 HP rating on the full transom 25. Prop charts were showing 72 MPH, so I stayed with the 200's at a mere 60!

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