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ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Are we kidding ourselves
|Author||Topic: Are we kidding ourselves|
posted 07-23-2001 08:05 AM ET (US)
I know this is going to raise some commotion. The guy that lives across the street from me is a licensed captain and works in the Coast Guard reserves. He is on the water EVERY weekend working or fishing and grew up on the Isle of Palms. He, to put it bluntly, says Whalers suck. When I press him on this he explains that they're over priced, rough riding, poor handling, and get water logged and heavy when they get older. When I bring up the swamp capacity, (I don't talk about unsinkable since most boats nowadays are positive flotation) he says that if it gets rough out there he would rather be in a boat that would handle and ride better since it would be easier to keep it out of trouble in the first place, and if the boat fills up with water and shorts out the battery your in deep trouble anyway.
When I first went shopping for my boat I wanted a Whaler for the name. But now my friends have bought other brands that seem to be nice for allot less money, and they are not new boats either. I looked them over and I don't see any cracks around the transom, or spider cracks in the gel coat, or any thing else for that matter.
I know that my boat will hold it's value better than theirs, but I just wonder if this Whaler mystic is not just the Emperors new coat.
posted 07-23-2001 08:17 AM ET (US)
Put it to him like this: Ok neighbor lets go five miles out.....and lets chum for sharks and then when we get about 5 in a feeding frenzy lets pull our plugs...Which boat do you want to be in?
P.S. even though a boat has positive floation doesn't mean that it wouldn't sink below the surface.
posted 07-23-2001 08:24 AM ET (US)
Ok one more thing...sometimes people hate what they can't afford.
posted 07-23-2001 08:48 AM ET (US)
Let's examine the charges:
OVER-PRICED: Well, they were and still are expensive. But it is a free market, and everytime a Whaler is sold it means the price was low enough to find a willing buyer. No one is forcing people to buy Whalers, and the boating marketplace is a good example of an elastic marketplace.
ROUGH RIDING: Compared to what? This tag is usually applied to the old 13 and 16 foot hulls. Exactly what 13 or 16 foot outboard boat is a smooth ride in 3-5 foot waves? The payback for the rough ride in some conditions is the hullform stability in other conditions. Go stand on the gunwale of another comparably sized boat at see how stable it is.
POOR HANDLING: at low speed? There are not any single-engine outboards that are great handling at low speed. At high speed? See "rough ride."
WATER-LOGGED/HEAVY: there are thousands of 20-30 year old Whalers that don't weigh 5 lbs more than the day they left the factory. There are, no doubt, a few old hulls that have been neglected that took on some water.
I bet the Whaler 13 foot classic has sold more boats than any other single model outboard (with the possible exception of the 14-foot aluminum fishing boat).
Now that said, there are plenty of decent used boats that sell for less than similar used Whalers. But boats of similar quality, say Grady-White or Pursuit, tend to have premium prices as used boats, too.
posted 07-23-2001 09:35 AM ET (US)
Overpriced ?? The market ALWAYS determines price whether it's stocks,cars,services or even Lee's rod holders. I'll buy a sound 25 year-old Whaler over a 5 year-old Bayliner at over double the price every time. I wonder how many Bayliners the Coast Guard owns ?
posted 07-23-2001 10:16 AM ET (US)
The Maryland Department of Natural Resources Police exclusively uses Boston Whalers for their patrol boats. These boats are manned by Maryland State Police and those guys are given the best equipment whether on the road or on the water because their lives depend on it.
I have also been told by "real" Coast Guard personnel that Whalers are an excellent boat with the exception of some years in the early 80s where there were some quality problems. I wouldn't put alot of faith in what a "reserve" Coastie says. It sounds to me like he had a bad experience with a single neglected whaler.
posted 07-23-2001 10:23 AM ET (US)
I'll accept that the charge of rough riding might apply -- even in my 26 Outrage (when working -- a Mercury issue), but very few, if any, boats are drier than mine in the same size range. I guess a Contender, Regulator or Intrepid might ride softer and having been on the later two outside, they are wetter, but as stated elsewhere, they are a ton of cash used, to say nothing of new. And when the total practical package is assembled, the Coasties, the US Navy, various law enforcement agencies could pretty much buy whatever is the best boat for the job --unless someone wants to level the charge that they put economics ahead of the saftey of their personnel. That seems to amount to Whaler. Note that the Customs Service has bought Scarabs, Cigarettes and other more exotic go-fasts -- the job there is to tear after certain "importers" and not save lives in conditions where only the brave dare venture. Sort of speaks for itself. Best boat for the job. My job is to safely take my family into the ocean, have fun and get home, no matter what brews up outside. The Outrage 26 has 7500 lbs swamped capacity -- more than the entire weight of some "competitors." 'Nuff said.
Speaking of best boat for the job, I did see a Navy squadron of 50 foot Magnums, all decked out with gatling guns, low-viz paint etc. tearing up the Hudson about 5 years ago. Now, THAT was a sight to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end!!
posted 07-23-2001 11:52 AM ET (US)
These types of comments usually result from sour grapes of some sort! Maybe his mother was frightened by a Whaler before he was born but who cares! None of us bought whalers under duress (sp?) and we are free to buy , as is he, whatever he wants. I get these type of comments about my Merc motors (like welfare motor, etc,,etc,,,) and I just smile and say nothing and consider the source! I don't trash other's belongings and I don't buy anything to satisfy anybody but me... that's my story and I'm sticking to it! Beam me up! Clark... The Old Man and the Sea
posted 07-23-2001 12:08 PM ET (US)
posted 07-23-2001 12:18 PM ET (US)
I live in Mt Pleas and launch at Sullivans Island, and as you know the boat traffic on the waterway is getting heavier every year. Espically behind IOP. You still see a ton of whalers out though, and most of them are the older ones, 15 to 19 outrages. Most of the people who have been boating a while in this area know the quality of whaler and the outboard shop did a great job of selling them at one time. Most new boaters that you see on the waterway flying through the no wake zones and close to the docks on goat island are driving brand new whaler copies, key west, scout , seapro, hydra"split", ect. It is typically the older whalers and the captains of these boat that seem to be more aware of the boating rules and regs, and local conditions. I think I see a pattern developing. Newer boaters with new boats that dont fully understand what can happen on the water. A little water in the hull will not make that big a difference. I would rather have a 25 year old water logged whaler instead of a 5 to 10 year old brand x any day. It is totally worth the money for safety, resell, and quality.
posted 07-23-2001 03:12 PM ET (US)
OK, It happen when I was very young, the summer I turned 9. An uncle took me out. It was just him and I on his 16' Whaler all day, no one around for miles, warm sun and calm water. We fished and ate the lunch my mother made and he let me drive his boat . I think that that boat could go 100 MPH and I know it was the best boat on the lake. Ever since I have never been the same as I sit in my cubical this beautiful July day looking at a computer screen. If instead of going out on his boat that day we had gone to the titty bar I would not be in this condition. (I would be drunk and looking a porn on the net instead). Is the boat perfect, NO, but each of us have had some of the best times of our lives on those boats with our freinds and family. Why can't people just enjoy something?
posted 07-23-2001 03:15 PM ET (US)
I doubt they would let you in at 9 years old ;)
posted 07-23-2001 04:13 PM ET (US)
2 years ago my son and I sold our 13' sport 1968. We went out to buy a 17' montauk and being a sucker for a deal we came home with a bayliner trophy 1903. We took the boat out 1 TIME! and both said this boat sure looked nice but it was an underpowered piece of junk. We sold it right away and bought a 13' 1972 sport. We both like the sport better and feel safer in it. The quality names in boats all carry a premium new and used. Quality will always be the best and most valuable in the long run. You are lucky if you discover this early in life. Regards, Jay
posted 07-23-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)
Since I bought my 89 montauk last January, alot of people asked me why I chose it. I tell them that I always liked them, but most important to me was that it can't sink. I really don't think very many people get it. It must be some sort of Titanic syndrome. That somehow, like the unsinkable Titanic, it can sink. They just don't get it. IT CAN'T SINK.
I guess first cost is significant. I only looked at whalers so I don't know how they compare to other boats. It seems to me however that because whalers hold their value so well, the higher first cost will be offset when its sold.
posted 07-24-2001 03:02 AM ET (US)
I bought a 1994 Outrage 21 Ft in 1999. Even today the boat looks better that my 23 ft Mako did the day I bought it brand new. Quality is enviable!
posted 07-24-2001 06:40 AM ET (US)
Let me tell you. This past weekend I got caught in 4-5 foot seas, alone, in my 15' whaler in Louisiana's Lake Pontchartrain, a sometimes vicious shallow water lake.
I have had this boat for 10 years (20 year old boat) and it never ceases to amaze me the way that little boat handles rough seas.
Did I feel like I was in an overpriced, rough riding, poor handling, heavy piece of junk. No, I felt like I was riding in the best purchase of my life and thinking that I will probably never sell it!
posted 07-24-2001 07:45 AM ET (US)
I think boats are a lot like women. What one man finds desirable another man may turn the other way. Just think, there is probably a Bayleaner forum out on the net with people saying the same things about their boat as well.....The only difference is WE KNOW THEY'RE WRONG!
I've owned 5 or 6 different boats over the years. I now own a 17 Montauk. To date she has never scared me or left me stranded. She is reliable and doesn't make any false moves when cresting a wave. With her low freeboard she has less windage so is less affected by the wind when docking. Yet with her foam filled haul she is very buoyant - rising with each wave. In my minds eye her lines are perfect.
To each his own - personally I've found the perfect mate.
posted 07-24-2001 08:02 AM ET (US)
posted 07-24-2001 08:50 AM ET (US)
Here we go with the personal preference thing. I had a similar experience with "boat dealer" here in the middle Ga area. The lady looked at my clean, classic just waxed 15 and informed me that all whalers were pieces of junk. Southern boys are taught not to hit women but we don't shine other peoples shoes either. When I firmly asked what the hell she meant she informed me that every screw you put in a whaler comes loose! Further conversation revealed that they had once had a job to completely rig out a bare hull 17,,,seats rod holders ect. Not knowing where the wood was they proceeded to put holders and cleats wherever they wanted. A couple of weeks later the boat owner went to the gulf and lost most of his hardware. I enlightened her as to the whereabouts of the wood reinforcement explaining that a whaler was not layer and layer of chopped glass but foam cored. She was not inpressed,,,neither was I. Happy whaling,,Jim Armstrong
posted 07-24-2001 09:04 AM ET (US)
Can't believe you wasted your breath.
posted 07-24-2001 06:34 PM ET (US)
posted 07-25-2001 12:15 AM ET (US)
You didn't mention what kind of boat this captain/Coast Guard Reservist owns. Sounds like he doesn't have a boat of his own.
posted 07-25-2001 07:38 AM ET (US)
Just to answer this - He has two boats. One is a big 30ft off shore fishing boat, I don't know the brand ( looks like a Hatteress (sp)). For those of you in the area its name is "Over the Ledge". The other is an old 15-17ft bay type boat with an old Mariner engine. He uses one or the other of these EVERY, (really every) weekend he's not on Coast Guard Duty. The he's not a squid. He knows what he's doing and is well respected in the area and has the money to buy what ever he wants.
posted 07-25-2001 08:35 AM ET (US)
Your friend Whalerdan -- did he "grow up" before or after the "new" bridge and massive development on the Isle?
Anyway sure makin much to do about one individuals opinion, since in the boating fishing auto etc. "worlds" you will always find strong opinionated individuals so what! We have them right on this forum --- :)
In these situations it's an opinion and that's pretty much that --- one individual certainly shouldn't have any significant influence on others, that is if the "others" actually have developed true studied opinions. Then again if the folks he associates with haven't developed their own opinions and they think this person should be admired and respected for his accomplishments = opinions, I guess he could be very influential with in his "small" world.
However, this is the "big" world of pen and ink so to speak and it affords individuals the ability to find information -- make comparisons --- etc. so that they can form their opinions not just be influenced by one person or even persons ------- sort of called standing on your own two feet --- "facts" are what make sound opinions with influence not just conjecture or "dock" talk ---
Might add as an aside, in this case the fellow has been associated with an arm of the service that uses and has used Boston Whalers for many years, it can very well happen that one knowingly or unknowing will develop a negative attitude, frankly just to be different among his peers, sort of an attention get-ter ---- (one runs across this quit often in the "services", also in the work place for that matter)
Well this kind of post as usual provoked an interesting thread! I personally don't see it going anywhere --- because we as members don't have to defend our choice of Whalers now do we, the facts are all here, accept or reject your choice! Z
posted 07-25-2001 08:49 AM ET (US)
Best comment I've read on this. Bigz - For what its worth, he grew up there before Hugo. He's boyhood home was distroyed by that storm, baby pictures, erhlooms, everything.
posted 07-25-2001 09:03 AM ET (US)
Kind of reminds me of all the union talk going on at my company right now. Lots of rhetoric from both sides.
I try my best to take my blinders off and keep an open mind. I want to hear from all sides and get as much information as possible.
In the end I will make my own decision.
posted 07-25-2001 10:54 AM ET (US)
People! If whalers were the best boats and the best designs then why are there only 2 "real" competitors(McKee and Edgewater, maybe wahoo)? Obviously it is expensive to build but there has to be other reasons why everyone does not own a whaler. Contenders are just as expensive as a whaler yet they sell the crap out of them.
I have had 30 boats and am 31 years old so most of these are newer(most post 1980). 11 of the 30 were whalers. Do I love WHalers, yes. Are all my boats whalers, no. When I bought my last "new" boat, I looked at whaler, edgwater, wahoo, mckee, mako, robalo, century, stratos, donzi, etc and bought a Hydra sport. Just could not justify buying a 17 outrage and a 150 for the same price as my Hydrasport That is 20', 225hp, T-top & radio box, leaning post, washdown, kevlar/unsinkable hull, etc. Plus the ride is sooo sweet. But that was my decision and a good one at that cause my friend opted for the 17 outrage and it does not compare.
Would I buy a whaler, I own a 17 now but I think that there are MANY reasons why there are only 2 competitors and next time you are at the boat show, look around.
posted 07-26-2001 02:33 AM ET (US)
Too bad your neighbor has to dog 'em since he can't afford one.
posted 07-26-2001 10:54 AM ET (US)
BigShot: Is your Hydra Sport a Vector model? Let me know as Ive heard really good things about this boat. Im thinking of getting something larger so your input will be appreciated. Thanks
posted 07-26-2001 11:18 AM ET (US)
Finz2Right, I suggest you read this thread before posting any more unsolicited comments.
posted 07-26-2001 12:22 PM ET (US)
Just wondering, because I also looked at Hydra-sport before ordering my Guardian.
1) was your decision based on price? Would you have taken a 20 Whaler for the same $'s?
2) are you refering to the Hydra-sport in this statement "kevlar/unsinkable hull"
3) Did you look at Robalo ? (IMO it was the closest to Whaler)
posted 07-26-2001 01:17 PM ET (US)
Are there other well made boats? Of course. Do some other boats have certain advantages over a given model whaler in a given application? Of course. There is no such thing as a perfect boat. But the original post about whalers being bad because they "get waterlogged and heavy when they get older" is absurd. To me one of the most attractive things about Boston Whalers is their unbelievable durability & longevity. Look at how many 1960's & 1970's whalers are out there, as good as new, without major structural work to keep them that way. Then look at conventionally built small boats of that age, like early Mako's, Aquasport's, SeaCrafts, Prolines. All were well made in their day, and plenty of the latter brands' boats are still around from the 70's...but most will either have soft stringers, transoms or decks, or they have had major structural surgery. The boston whaler construction method is the most proven, durable way to make a small fiberglass boat. You might see transom problems on very old whalers occasionally, but less so than alot of other well made boats. You occassionally see delamination from the foam, but this is really pretty rare...much less common than stringer & deck problems on conventional boats.
As to being waterlogged, whalers are less likely to become so than conventional boats with foam floatation added, as the foam in a whaler is not exposed to water as long as holes aren't drilled everywhere without being sealed. I've seen plenty of old Mako's that won't self bail because of water in the foam floatation.
posted 07-26-2001 01:34 PM ET (US)
Mine is a 1994 2000cc Vecter model. It is Kevlar. My decision was based on a lot of things. I did look at Robalo and it was a close third until I saw the deck screws exposed and plastic thru hulls, below water line too. They used plastic hinges,windshields, etc that will not hold up over time.
My boat with a 225 runs 53mph with a T-top and the ride of the 24 degree V is sooo sweet and the flare is dry. The windshield is glass. Brass thru hulls with shutoff valves on each. Everything is high grade SS and custom fitted. Hydra used Pipewelders towers back then from the factory(might still). Etc. It is just a class act ride and built like a brick outhouse(for dpg;) [brick boathouse? jimh] I just can't say enough about it.
My buddy bought a 17 outrage and I was looking at montauks. Then I was looking at 18 stratos cause was the same price as montauk. Then we look at the 17 outrage, etc until we finally upticked ourselves to this. Today they are getting more expensive. But like any good thing, whalers included, get to be that way. My dad bought his 74 Revenge brand new for $4500 w/o power in 75 We sold it for $8500 in 1988. Those were the days! Would I buy a new whaler, probably not since Brunswick took over. The local dealer gave up whaler and took on Scout cause they said they went to crap, who knows but for the $, I would not risk it. I can say that being we are in the Classic forum, right? Everything Brunswick touches goes to crap, some say that for OMC too. I would also look at Scout and Pursuit and the new SeaCrafts are back to #1 quality again. Sorry for the novel.
posted 07-26-2001 01:50 PM ET (US)
A "fictional" novel!
posted 07-26-2001 02:01 PM ET (US)
To each his own! How many boats have you owned? Your statement makes you on par with Whalerdan's neighbor.
posted 07-26-2001 02:02 PM ET (US)
Bigshot, I'm not the bad language police on this forum. I was just cautioning a first time poster that the general consensus of participants is that they take the swearing elsewhere. YOU can say what every you want.
posted 07-26-2001 02:17 PM ET (US)
I was in the book store yesterday, and was leafing through "Fiberglass boats and the men who bild them" published by IMS. They ahd about a page and half on Whalers, mainly concering Hunt's contribution, etc. the closed off by stating that whalers, and foam cored boats in general, had problems with the foam becomming saturated with water, which was a problem inherent wiht the design.
If its in print, it must be true, right? Perhaps whalerdan's neighbor has the book on his shelf?
There, and not a single profanity!
posted 07-26-2001 02:18 PM ET (US)
According to the latest NMMA sales figures, neither Contender, Grady White, Hydra Sports (even before OMC shut them down) outsells Boston Whaler.
Several years ago, a Hydra Sports Dealer in FL had an occasion to drive in my 25 Outrage.
posted 07-26-2001 02:19 PM ET (US)
Dpg, just pulling your lariat. That is why I used the smiley;) We do need more horsing around on this forum, it is a bit dry, no pun intended.
posted 07-26-2001 02:23 PM ET (US)
Just like I stated earlier, to each his own. I am aware of the stats but that is mainly due to the fact that all the boats they mention are limited in range, function and $$. If you looked up sales on 20' and larger, they might not be even close. The #1 selling boat is Pantyliner and that goes to show that sales are not everything.
posted 07-26-2001 03:22 PM ET (US)
A question on "waterlogged foam". Has anyone out there seen this in a whaler?
The foam put into boats is closed cell foam designed not to absorb water, but I know over time the type of foam used as floatation in most boats can deteriorate so that the cells in the foam can wick water. And I know alot of boats gain weight over time, as fiberglass will absorb some water over time as well. But the foam used in a whaler is styrofoam, just like a cooler or coffee cup. I just can't imagine styrofoam absorbing water, particularly when it is chemically bonded to fiberglass with no airspace for water to get in. The book Larry mentions says it's a characteristic of the design, but I've never seen a waterlogged whaler. Does anyone have some insight on this?
posted 07-26-2001 03:32 PM ET (US)
The foam in whalers is not styrofoam, it is (was) polyurethane. I believe the type of foam used has changed over the years. To learn more about the chemical and physical properties of the different foams out there, see the "Reference Materials" post in the General section.
posted 07-26-2001 03:40 PM ET (US)
John look back under the repair topic forum through last year. A lot of discussion on this situation. Be prepared to read a lot.
Yes it does occur and the foam will absorb water.
Hate to say it again for the xxxx time we do need a search engine so many post since Spring when the forum seemed to explode with new members have already been covered.
In a lot of cases the contributors form these previous discussions are still here just tired of answering the same questions over and over again. Yeah hear me again JimH :}! --- ok it's summer --- Z
posted 07-26-2001 03:42 PM ET (US)
posted 07-26-2001 04:36 PM ET (US)
I have had a waterlogged 13. Main cause was the drain tube rotted out. basically ruined the boat. 78 and later had closed cell foam but it will still absorb water. How it also happens is holes drilled or lose screws, etc. When a deck gets a soft spot, air gets in there as well. You can dry one out ut the only real way of doing it is ripping out the old foam and putting in new,which is not really an option with a wahler being the way they are designed. I am not saying that if you were looking at a whaler with a couple screw hole, she is water logged, this is from long term exposure and overall abuse.
posted 07-26-2001 04:58 PM ET (US)
I love Whalers. That being said, they may not sink but they sure tend to capsize. When swamped, all that flotation in the hull pulls to the surface. In wind and waves, that force is not equal and over she goes.
posted 07-26-2001 05:04 PM ET (US)
Sometimes too much bouyancy is too much. Try sitting on one of those square throwable cushions while in the water. I see your point but do not know if I have had that issue.
posted 07-26-2001 09:56 PM ET (US)
Have any of you whaler owners out ther had your whaler capsize?
I haven't and I've been in some really rough water.
posted 07-27-2001 07:24 AM ET (US)
Just to answer the capsizing thing. A couple of weeks ago myself and two friends (a man and a women, total weight maybe 500lbs) where standing all on one side of my boat while anchored. She leaned over the side, for what ever reason, and the boat started to flip. Water came over the gunnel into the boat. We all jumped back being quite startled. I have heard that Montauks were suppose to be very stable in this manner, but I know I can flip mine with less that the maximum weight all on one side of the boat.
posted 07-27-2001 10:39 AM ET (US)
Why do you think it would flip? It might have swamped but could it really capsize in still water at anchor? Just curious.
posted 07-27-2001 10:50 AM ET (US)
What probably would have happened is, we would have fell overboard and it would have righted it self. But if we had all tried to hang on, because of the rate of rotation, I think it would have flipped.
posted 07-27-2001 11:38 AM ET (US)
There is no question that there are far better riding boats than a whaler, and I'm not certain why the boat must ride so hard, and bob up and over waves like a rubber duck. A great example of a dry, great riding boat is a Wellcraft V-20 steplift. I would trade my Whaler hull for this one any day of the week. What I wouldn't trade is the quality I find every time I open a hatch, check wiring, latch something down, or the confidence of knowing that I don't have to check the boat in the marina every couple days to see if it took on water, etc...
Why, oh why, must Whalers ride so poorly? For those of you that haven't been on other manufacturers boats in the size range of your own Whaler, you owe it to yourself to at least know that a boat doesn't have to ride like sh*t to be dry and safe. Bigshot's experience with a Hydra-Sports can be repeated with many other boats on the market.
What's my point? Just keep an open mind about other boats and enjoy the quality of your Whaler.
posted 07-27-2001 11:41 AM ET (US)
You would have fallen overboard, you aint gonna flip that easily. We tried to flip a 13 like that, no dice. I have seen capsized whalers but have no idea how it happened.
posted 07-27-2001 12:05 PM ET (US)
I'm not tryin it again to prove you wrong.
posted 07-27-2001 12:47 PM ET (US)
Don't blame ya! ;)
posted 07-27-2001 02:39 PM ET (US)
Try living in NC and justify a Whaler. Grady White, Fountain, Regulator, Parker, etc. However, for what I use mine for it can't be beat. Is there a better ski boat? Is there a better bay boat? Is there a better offshore boat? Yes! Is there a boat that can do all of these as well as a whaler. I don't think so. Funny the "Coast Guard" guy doesn't like Whalers as that was the USCG boat of choice for years.
posted 07-27-2001 02:43 PM ET (US)
I like the way he said "was".
posted 07-27-2001 03:10 PM ET (US)
I took a ride on a Montauk for the first time yesterday, I must confess I was not impressed ( could be because the boat was in bad shape). I also rode in a Ranger 19' center console with 150 hp. it impreesed the h*&l out of me. I think because it would do 60 mph with out trying and it was totally set up for fishing (main purpose for new boat). I never thought I would say that about what I thought was a redneck (in the Merriam Webster Dictionary) bass boat. Goning Fishing! Jay
posted 07-27-2001 04:13 PM ET (US)
V-20 Steplift? I've heard a lot about these boats and there are still many around. Did you have one?
If not enough or too much foam is added there is a problem. If the ambient temperature is not right there may be incomplete cure. If the hull and linerparts have cured too long the foam won't stick. The worst is if the A & B were not added in equal quantities, or the foam manufacturer's formulation was not right.
As for Whalerdan's question, only the market can answer it. Are two fiberglass skins filled with foam the best? (BW) If so, why isn't everyone building boats that way? Is "no wood" the way to go? What about vinylester resins? kevlar and carbon fiber? You the consumers will decide with marketing's help and we the manufacturers will give you what you want. At any rate, thank you for buying boats!
posted 07-27-2001 04:25 PM ET (US)
I have been told that a Ranger is very well made, and uses foamed hulls as well. I have never seen a cut away Ranger hull, nor have I ever had any water time with one. I also thought that they were bubba-boats. You learn something every day.
posted 07-27-2001 04:27 PM ET (US)
Boatdesiner, what is the best boat for all around use for the money? If you design boats give us some names, the good and the bad. Quite frankly, this subject is giving me doubt if I should be hellbent on buying a Whaler. Still trying to go fishing,Jay
posted 07-27-2001 04:37 PM ET (US)
Suburbanboy, Ranger claims the are the only other boat that will not sink, but so do a bunch of others. I have seen their cut away and they use lotts of foam. The difference is that it is not compressed and it looks more like styrafoam(holds up many docks around here). Problem is they cost more than whalers. Most guys around here have bigger payments on their bass boats than on their doublewides. Just kidding, Jay
posted 07-27-2001 04:54 PM ET (US)
Who are you guys kidding? Don't get me wrong, Whalers are great boats. I am a proud owner of a sweet (and somewhat rare) 17' Newport Center Console that is a great all around boat. I do everything from flats fishing to waterskiing to fishing 30 miles offshore on nice days. The old Whalers are great boats and are solid, but let's be honest here...they ride like crap. I've been on all the old Outrages up to 25 feet and any well designed deep vee rides must better in the rough stuff (w/ the exception of the early 90s 21 and 24 Outrages). Yeah, Whalers are safe and last forever and hold their value, but they aren't the smoothest riding boats or even close. I see people on here talking about how smooth Whalers ride and that is just BS. Whalers are good boats but just aren't the greatest ever for offshore work. I own one now and love it, but as I get more and more into offshore fishing, I can honestly say that I would never consider another Whaler. And the only reason why Whalers are still a top seller is because people are just paying for the name. I have friends w/ new whalers that have had serious structural problems and frankly the new designs suck.
posted 07-27-2001 07:15 PM ET (US)
The early cathedral hull boats are stable, safe boats that deserve their reputation for pounding and getting you wet. The modified and deep vee hulls have been tainted by those reputations, but they still do not ride as soft as some other boats.
I personally own 2 Whalers, a 2001 22 Dauntless (spare me please, the fiancee liked it) and a 1994 Outrage 17. Both are beautifully made, durable and incredibly dry. However, after too many hours of launch and slam offshore, I have come to the conclusion that the hulls are not soft riding because: (a) they so rigid that they do not dissipate any energy on reentry (by flexing or twisting like a boat with stringers) and (b) the spray rails and inverted chines that make them so incredibly dry also generate lift, which increases deceleration on reentry. That said, the Pursuits, Intrepids and Regulators I have been on have softer rides, but are just plain wet.
As far as not handling well, that has to be sour grapes. I have never been on a boat that handled as predictably and as securely in steep following or beam seas as that 17. Both my boats carve tight lines in turns no matter what the conditions and never chine walk, shear or do anything else untoward. As far as safety, I have read reputable reports of other "premium" boats sinking at the dock or at sea because they have notched transoms. Never hear of that happening to a Whaler. I also know from personal experience that they are more prone to broaching and shearing. Again, the spray rails and inverted chines make a lot of the Whaler hulls feel like they are on rails.
As far as old hulls becoming waterlogged, that can happen. However, that criticism is about like saying a Land Cruiser is not a great vehicle because the old ones are rusty. The only reason that a Land Cruiser is around to rust is that it is incredibly reliable and no one wanted to get rid of it. Same with a Whaler. How many thirty year old boats are there out there to compare them with? Regulator, Intrepid and Pursuit have not been around long enough for anybody to say what they'll do in 30 years. And just look under the floor of a twenty year old GW (a great boat) or other high dollar boat and I can almost guarantee you will find waterlogged foam, rotten stringers and other problems.
My .02. I'll take either Whaler to sea anyday and put up with some extra bumps, secure in the knowledge that it is built right, will hold its value and most importantly that it will bring me home from places I should never go. Go Whaler!
posted 07-27-2001 07:30 PM ET (US)
JE Mejia, your last line "...places I should never go" reminds me why National Geographic and Playboy are my favorite magazines. They both have excellenct color photographs of places I'll never get to go!
Hey, Bigshot, are we lightening up enough for ya?
posted 07-28-2001 08:38 AM ET (US)
I think the only reason Whalers have the rep is that they were the first, 30 or so years ago, to build boats right. Now I think alot of other boat are build just as good and have better hydrodinamic qualities.
Another thing, everyone is always talking about how they last 30 years. If I bought one new and paid that kind of money for it you can bet I'd take alot better care of it than a cheep boat. Better maintanence = longer life.
posted 07-28-2001 09:22 PM ET (US)
You guys are great! getting lighter by the day. I think it is working, keep up the good work. As far as the last few posts go, You arte right, Whalers(classics) are the best or else I would not have owned 11 of them. They are rough but they hold their value and are the most stable rides around. still can't believe they scratched the 13 and 15, what a mistake. They cancel the Montauk and they deserve to go under.
posted 07-28-2001 11:06 PM ET (US)
Selecting a boat is very much like choosing a mate, some are expensive, some you can't afford, some are high maintenence, some built better than others, some have a better ride.. Ultimately all have and will show their flaws. What is intolerable to one is easily overlooked by another. Choose wisely. I got lucky. I got a good wife who wants a bigger Whaler.
posted 07-29-2001 01:32 AM ET (US)
Blah, Blah, Blah. So invent a ride meter and lets compare.
Hey, that cetecia page photo of the 18 Launching? -- GIVE ME THAT ROUGH RIDE ANY DAY! -- Yeeee HA!
Water logged foam -- it is the owner's fault.
There ain't no other motor boat 'sides classic Whaler that looks like a yacht! -- It is a sail boat without the sails.
AND it is the only stinkpot you would catch this sailor sailing!
Putt Putt Putt....>>>Brian
posted 07-30-2001 09:26 AM ET (US)
No we are not kidding ourselves! This past weekend I went on a father son campout at Brookville Lake. We took the '72 , 13 sport out for the first time since we restored it. We had 2 other boats in a group of 12 families, a Ranger bass boat and a SeaRay runabout. The compliments we received on the sport were overwhelming. We took the sport to the lake's marina for lunch yesterday and we couldn't get over the compliments we received. My 13 year old son felt like the coolest kid there because all his friends and their fathers couldn't get over "his boat". When we left my son's happiness was enough to convince me we will never be without a classic Whaler. Regards, Jay
posted 07-30-2001 02:34 PM ET (US)
I have watched and started to post on this thread several times. I looks like all the pros and cons of Whaler designs and construction are just about covered. There are other very good boats out there, but for me, the classic Whalers have an appeal and attraction that other very good boats just do not have for me. Maybe the Whalers stir a similar dislike in some other people. It would seem so. Personally, that is one of the things I like about classic Whalers, when you see one, you either don't like it, or you get some degree of satisfaction and say to yourself, "Nice boat". Kelly
posted 07-30-2001 04:39 PM ET (US)
Forgot your Ritalin again?
posted 07-30-2001 05:09 PM ET (US)
I don't think any of us are kidding ourselves. As several have already stated, some boats may be better and some may not, but does it really matter. As long as you like whatever boat you have, that's is all that matters. I have several boats which I really love, including a 2000 26' Four Winns cruiser and a 1997 Aquasport 175 CC in FL, a beautiful 1980 Victoria 18 sailboat and a beautiful 1968 BW Sakonnet in Ohio. Just this past week I returned from FL to OH towing my most recent purchase (I should say STEAL), a 1973 BW Outrage 21 with 88 Merc 150 (my new MagicTilt dual axle trailer was only few hundred less than Outrage with motor). It will be a labor of love project. Don McIntyre was right when he told me that owning a classsic Whaler is like a disease. Every time I see a classic Whaler that needs attention, I want to have it or at least think about how I would fix it up. Regards to all and am really thankful for this forum.
posted 07-30-2001 05:13 PM ET (US)
Gotta love that! Good Luck and get us some pics.
posted 07-30-2001 08:00 PM ET (US)
This reminds me of another popular argument...Chevy, Ford....Ford, Chevy...Both companies learned that they ain't all that when Honda and Toyota came on the scene...Let's hope those same quality issues don't happen with BW...
Personally, it's not all about the quality...(am I glad it's there, and is it important? Of course) For me, a classic BW evokes nostalgia - great memories of good times with my father on the lake, with my family at our summer home, and of my older brother trying to toss me off an innertube being towed behind a whaler. Whatever the reasoning behind our purchases of a whaler, those who do can certainly rest assured that their money was well spent...piece of mind, pride, whatever.
The bottom line is that it's a purchase you can be proud of. It's a boat that will bring you back to port...even if you've chosen to go out in insanely unhospitable conditions. Is the ride rougher than some boats?..yes..you want a soft ride...buy that other boat - it's a free country. Buy what you want, but come into this forum, and you should expect that the people here are going to have strong opinions about their choice in boats.
(my personal opinion:)
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