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Author Topic:   Unsinkable is not as well known as we think
TightPenny posted 08-14-2001 06:28 PM ET (US)   Profile for TightPenny   Send Email to TightPenny  
After the rain yesterday, I was heading home from the shore. Moored accross the street from my father's house are several Whalers, one of which is the Sport 15 I handed down to my son.

The owner of one of the older (blue interior) open whalers was standing next to his boat bailing it out. I amazed him when I told him to just pull the plug and let the rainwater out. He tried it and it, as we all know, worked like a charm.

I drove on, but will try and talk to him the next time I see him. I found out by accident that the plug should stay out in my Sport 15, back in the days before the internet and finding this site. We gotta spread the word to all out there.

jimh posted 08-14-2001 11:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I tried this recently on my 20-Revenge.

We were in warm fresh water (least density thus most draft), the fuel tank was full, there were three coolers iced down and full of beer, pop, and food lining the rear of the cockpit, and I was standing over the bilge sump watching...

I pulled the plug, a few inches of water came in, then it quit! The boat floats and is self draining. You have to try it to believe it.

--jimh

browning20ga posted 08-15-2001 12:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for browning20ga  Send Email to browning20ga     
I'm new to Whaling, and every trip out I'd like to try it in my 13 footer, but I get cold feet and say to myself "next time"
Darrell
Chris posted 08-15-2001 02:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chris  Send Email to Chris     
I have a 1988 13' SS. When the boat is tied to dock and I pull the plug water does come in. I should note that it has a 30hp 2cyl. Johnson OB and a 6 gallon tank in the rear of the cockpit. Cushions, and some rods, are in the main cockpit area, and a 12 lb anchor in anchor locker at bow. Is the fact that water enters a concern (possibly an indication water in the hull). The boat runs fine otherwise seeming to having plent of get up and go. Thanks
Tsuriki BW posted 08-15-2001 02:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
My experience experience several months ago.

Launched at Pt. Defiance but couldn't find a parking place as several idiots parked their cars in the vehicle/trailer combo only spaces. Took 30 minutes or so to get back to the boat.

Whaler seemed sluggish and harder to plane. Fished the Clay Banks with no luck. Boat just behind us got a 17lb salmon. (should have been ours) Had some chop and water came over the stern. I usually keep the scupper plugs in. The 75hp Merc weighs 300+lb and is the max rated for the Dauntless 14. Hate having a wet stern, so pulled the plugs whenever we moved.

Moved to Pt. Dalco. Speed not what it should be, plane not what I expected, trim not as effective. Water drained out of the stern with the scupper plugs out under power. Back in when we stopped. More chop and jerks running full bore close to us causing high wakes to break over the stern. Started think seriously about selling the 75 and getting a 50hp (lighter)

Quit fishing and returned. Tied up at the dock, hiked to the parking spot I finally had found and pulled the trailer up and pulled the Whaler out. Water coming out of the stern. What the.........??? No drain plug!! Hit the bilge pump and I could have qualified as a fire fighting boat....

I don't know how much water the bilge area holds but I must have been dragging around a hundred pounds or more of water the whole trip. Explained a lot about the performance and low stern during the trip. It does say that a Whaler will float even without a drain plug in place, but I, obviously, don't recommend it!

I thought the dealer had removed the plug during recent repairs as I don't remember doing it. However...when I got home and put the Dauntless back in the garage, there it was on the workbench...Duhhhh...

Drain Plug..don't leave hime without it.. and for me, in place.

Tsuriki

Clark Roberts posted 08-15-2001 06:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Unsinkable and "self-bailing" are two different things... Whalers are unsinkable (self explanitory) and self-bailing means that the deck (sole) of the boat is above the waterline and any water that enters the boat will drain via gravity if proper drain holes are provided (and not plugged... if plugged then boat will fill with water from rain or overwash). The classic 13, 15, and 17 and the newer hulls of same length are not self-bailing and water will puddle a few inches and wash over the deck if plug is left out, however they will reach equibrium and become stable... I have an old 13 with 20 Merc that is almost self-bailing because of the light motor etc... if I leave it moored in the open overnight I always pull the plug so a rainstorm does't fill it. I have a 21 Revenge that can be run without the plug all the time as the deck is several inches above the waterline and any water that enters simply drains out... I don't know which of the newer hulls are self-bailing but none will sink! Happy Whalin'... Clark
blackdog posted 08-15-2001 08:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
On my 16 Daunltess I can leave the Anchor locker plug out but not sure about the stern plug. As clarke said above I probaly would take on some water

kingfish posted 08-15-2001 08:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
My Outrage 22 is self-bailing when the plugs are out. The sole is above the water line and would self-bail with the plugs in but for the splashwell bulkhead that is continuous from gunwale to gunwale. So water that lands on the deck, whether from rain, over the gunwale, or wash down, primarily flows to one or both of the small wells where the plugs are, that are located at the forward side of the intersections of the splashwell bulkhead and the gunwales. If I leave the plugs out of these wells, maybe a half-gallon of water enters into each one and then stabilizes there (225 Evinrude, two batteries and an oil reservoir back there). If I leave the plugs in, water that has entered into these wells flows into the live well/sump that is between them once the wells themselves have nearly filled, all below deck level. If the live well fills without the bilge pump in the sump in the bottom of the livewell being turned on (I don't have a float switch on this pump, because there are times when I have bait or fish or both in there and I *want* water in it)*then* water will start to accumulate on the rear deck. If I pull the plugs then, the boat will float up and stabilize with the deck dry, but there will still be what I would guess to be around 20 gallons in the live well that I would have to pump out with the bilge pump.

If I know we're going to stay dry, I'll leave the plugs in and use the wells for storage; if I think we'll be wet, I simply leave the plugs out, and they will suck themselves dry while I am planing, and then stabilize again with about a half-gallon or so of water in them when I idle down.

It's pretty slick, and I have (intentionally) gotten some wide eyes when I have made a production out of pulling the plugs in front of the un-initiated.

kingfish

Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 09:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Can't believe nobody made a comment that our founder and moderator just recently discovered his unsinkable legend really is unsinkable. Great job Jim:)
jimh posted 08-15-2001 09:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Hey--I'd only had that boat in the water about three times before I tried it.

On my 15-Sport (with a lightweight 50-HP) the boat will self drain as long as no one is aboard. Just the sump fills. When you hop aboard to put the plug in, more water comes in, so you have to be quick about it!

Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 10:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Gotta be real quick with the small ones! I used to keep a big sponge in mine so I could just ring out the excess. I knew what you were getting at in your first post Jim, just poking a little fun! I'm amazed at the amount of water that stays in my 17 with only a 260lb engine on it. About 20 gals? My 19' Revenge was totally dry, never kept a plug in that for 15 years almost. That boat was so darn bow heavy(even with a 140)that reverse was futile.
tbyrne posted 08-15-2001 10:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for tbyrne    
Clark, just FYI - the 2000 13' Sport is indeed self-bailing if you pull the correct drain plug. In addition to the plug in the stern, there is one in the deck below the helm seat. Even with one person in the boat, it will drain completely if you pull this plug and the boat is at rest. That portion of the deck is above the waterline (at the apex of the sponson and main part of the hull). Of course, if you are under way and pull this plug, water is forced through the drain and you get Old Faithful!!
andygere posted 08-15-2001 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Looking at my dad's 2000 Dauntless 16, the bilge drain is always below the waterline, tucked into a notch just above the keel. The plug looked like a nylon threaded type, not the typical rubber and brass style. It looked like there was quite a bit of volume beneath the seats and under the motor well, but the factory installed bilge pump emptied it quickly when I rinsed the area with a hose. The good news is that a wave over the stern would not directly fill this area, and the scuppers in the floor do a good job of self-bailing the cockpit. I was impressed with the bouyancy of the boat with a full load of people (6), fuel and gear.
Tsuriki BW posted 08-15-2001 12:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     

My Dauntless is basically the same as andygere's father's 16. The drain plug is located OUTSIDE close to the bottom of the stern. The plug is a nylon screw in plug with a rubber ring washer. The plug is installed/removed with a very thick screwdriver, or better yet, a coin.

The plug is something that can NOT be installed/removed easily while the boat is in the water. The drain hole is small and I don't think would drain the bilge area quickly even under power. Maybe this is why BW installed a pump.

After the experience I had, with my boat, I will never launch without the drain plug installed. Whatever excessive water comes onto the deck of the boat can be removed by taking out the scupper plugs. Water that gets into the bilge is removed with the pump.

My motor is heavy enough that some amount of water comes in with the scupper plugs out. That is why I keep them in except to drain water out under way. Without the drain plug in, the bilge would fill with water.

Other models may be different. Just what I need to do with my Dauntless 14.

Tsuriki

Whaler15 posted 08-15-2001 01:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaler15  Send Email to Whaler15     
So, is this saying that if you suddenly take on water, or if you leave the boat docked overnight and and are worried about heavy rain, you're better off having the plug out?
Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 01:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Witha 15 or any "classic", yes!
Tsuriki BW posted 08-15-2001 02:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
Seems to me there are a couple of basic points here. Again, I can only talk about my model Whaler, others may be a bit different.

1. Water can build up in basically 3 areas: Bilge, anchor locker and deck.

2. Anchor locker has a rubber/brass plug that can be inserted to keep water from coming through the "drain hole" or removed to drain the locker under way.

3. Deck can have water build up by waves over the bow, side or stern, rain but will self drain through the scuppers if the plugs are removed. Installing the scupper plugs keeps water from coming in from the scupper holes.

4. Water can build up in the bilge if the drain plug is removed or through the center console bottom if water is high enough in the deck. Water in the bilge can be removed while under way with the drain plug removed or by using a bilge plug with the drain plug installed.

I see no advantage, in my boat, to removing the drain plug if the boat is left outside, either in the water or on the trailer in a rain storm. Removing the scupper plugs is necessary to keep the deck dry and keep water from building up high enough to go into the bottom of the CC and then into the bilge.

If the boat is left in the water or outside in the rain, a quick check with the bilge pump should remove any water that has somehow built up there.

Am I off base?

Tsuriki

Tsuriki BW posted 08-15-2001 02:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
Seems to me there are a couple of basic points here. Again, I can only talk about my model Whaler, others may be a bit different.

1. Water can build up in basically 3 areas: Bilge, anchor locker and deck.

2. Anchor locker has a rubber/brass plug that can be inserted to keep water from coming through the "drain hole" or removed to drain the locker under way.

3. Deck can have water build up by waves over the bow, side or stern, rain but will self drain through the scuppers if the plugs are removed. Installing the scupper plugs keeps water from coming in from the scupper holes.

4. Water can build up in the bilge if the drain plug is removed or through the center console bottom if water is high enough in the deck. Water in the bilge can be removed while under way with the drain plug removed or by using a bilge plug with the drain plug installed.

I see no advantage, in my boat, to removing the drain plug if the boat is left outside, either in the water or on the trailer in a rain storm. Removing the scupper plugs is necessary to keep the deck dry and keep water from building up high enough to go into the bottom of the CC and then into the bilge.

If the boat is left in the water or outside in the rain, a quick check with the bilge pump should remove any water that has somehow built up there.

Am I off base?

Tsuriki

Tsuriki BW posted 08-15-2001 02:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tsuriki BW  Send Email to Tsuriki BW     
Sorry, don't know why the double posts are occuring, Jim, can you please remove this and the double post above? Thanks,

Tsuriki,

Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 02:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
No you are not off base but you are comparing 2 different designs.

Classics do not have scuppers or bilge areas. They have 1 plug in the rear and sometimes 1 in the bow locker. My 15&17 never needed the bow locker plug in, stayed dry(at rest) and if left in would fill up with rain. I have a crappy cushion that I put in the locker and then my anchor on top, rope on top of that, this keeps the rope dry for the most part.

The rear plug is below the water line but with moderate hp, the boat will stay dry at rest. With max or heavier 4 strokes, some water will come in, usually a couple inches in the back(10+gals most). With rear plug in and no pump boat can fill to the splashwell easily in a good rain. Won't sink but makes boat unstable. If moored, could capsize in rough weather. Major problem is the battery and gas tanks can submerge if in the rear.

Look at a montauk and you will see what I mean.

hauptjm posted 08-15-2001 02:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
I lost my plug about two months ago for my '85 18OR. I've used the boat maybe 10 or more times since. Always had at least two or more people in it when being used. I've got to get over to West...I keep forgetting. Boy, I love Classic Whalers!
Angryeel posted 08-15-2001 02:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Angryeel  Send Email to Angryeel     
1964, 17' , should the drain plug stay out if the boat is kept in the water? The boat has a 90 merc on it. It will be going in the water in the next couple of weeks and I was just thinking about the drain plug issue when I saw this post. I have seen people use plugs and others not use them, just wondering what the general consensus is, if there is one. It seems that many of the boats mentioned already are much newer than mine and it seems some things may have changed. Thanks for any input.
Angryeel
Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 02:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
If unattended for periods of time and not covered, get a pump and float switch. If just for a weekend, pull plug if it looks like heavy rain. I keep my boat in my yard(canal)so it is easy to check on but I got tired of handpumping it everyday. FL summer rains can sink most boats in a couple hours. I have seen many lifts break due to people forgetting to pull the plug or their bilge pump goes bad. With a Whaler it only fills until the splash well. With that 90 Merc, if that is an inline with the trim pump mounted in the rear, that can't get too much water in it, use a pump. Solenoids for pump are NOT water friendly.
B Bear posted 08-15-2001 03:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
As Bigshot pointed out these are two different designs.

The newer Accutrack hull has an under deck bilge and more volume, due to the modified Vee, Then the smaller classics which have a splash well.

The bilge drain plug should always be installed, and the bilge pump use to remove any accumulation of water in the bilge. The bilge area is fairly well enclosed and should keep most sources of water out. The bilge pump should keep up with any water that might come in, even if it does not the boat will remain afloat and you will still make it home. At most the water in the bilge should act as ballast considering the amout of free surface involved.

The self-bailing aspect is the aft scupper cockpit drains. These drains have a rubber flap check valve on the hull to impede water from coming into the cockpit. These scuppers should keep the cockpit drained when making way or when the boat is static, unless there is enough weight on the aft to put these scuppers at or below the water line.

So if you are taking on water in a newer hull and have scupper plugs, remove them as you would the drain plugs on a classic hull to evacuate the water in the cockpit.
Bear

B Bear posted 08-15-2001 03:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Let me add I remove the bilge drain plug when I put it on the trailer and install it before I put it in the water.

The anchor locker drain plug is your choice, it will drain when under way or static, and only allow water in when you are standing on the locker cover. The water there goes no where else except out.
Bear

where2 posted 08-15-2001 05:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for where2  Send Email to where2     
On my 15' Sport with a 70Hp Johnson, if I pull the plug at rest at the dock, water does come in the drain hole and up over the floor to under the thwart seat. Its not that there is water in the hull, I had the drain tube out recently, quite dry as I would prefer it be. My fuel (2x6 gal. tanks) and Battery (Group 24) are under the rear thwart seat, the 70Hp J is an '85 as is the hull. Maybe with a 50Hp things drain ok, but mine is certainly not a self draining deck.
andygere posted 08-15-2001 05:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Angryeel,
Your best bet is to pull the plug and see how much water enters the boat. I recently saw an older Nauset moored in Cape Cod Bay with an in-line 90 Merc left uncovered with the plug out. There were a few inches of water in the aft part of the boat, but most of the deck was dry. The boat had a single battery and power trim pump mounted near the stern under a home-made bench. Fuel tanks were in the console and the boat was otherwise empty. I assume that since the tides in the bay put this boat on dry sand twice a day that marine growth inside the hull is not a problem (ponded water would drain out). I used to leave the plug out on my 13 all the time, but when the boat was left in the water (usually just a week or two at a time) it was used daily so slime growth inside the cockpit was not an issue.

Having just put my Montauk in the water on a continuous basis for the first time, I went the plug-in route. Water in my harbor has a pretty high fouling potential, and my Montauk is stern heavy with a 15 hp kicker, teak seat and dual batteries aft. I didn't want a shaggy green slime growing on my deck so I decided to keep the boat covered and install a "smart" bilge pump to remove any rainwater that leaks in. I hope this helps.

daverdla posted 08-15-2001 06:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
I have an 89 montauk with a 100HP evinrude. Both the battery and the oil tank are in the stern. Two 6.5 gallon tanks are under the seat. I tried keeping it docked with the plug pulled but it really sits low in the water. For now, I keep the plug in and the bilge pump on automatic.
Dave
MikeR posted 08-15-2001 06:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for MikeR  Send Email to MikeR     
I was wondering about the bilge pump. Is there anyway to keep it from tipping over in my 15 SS? Can it be permanently mounted?
Thanks.
jimh posted 08-15-2001 08:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Any bilge pump in a Whaler 15 was not put there by the factory; someone added it.

If it is not mounted to the bottom of the sump, you can easily mount it with a couple of stainless steel screws and some bedding caulk.

--jimh

Maximus posted 08-15-2001 09:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for Maximus  Send Email to Maximus     
I am confused...

Unsinkable...you can cut the boat in half and it won't sink.

Unsinkable...you can blow your Whaler up with a stick of dynamite and have lots of litte whalers still floating...

I have a '67 17 footer and if I read this thread correctly, I do not need a drain plug?

My only drain plug related experience was when I put the boat down the ramp and forgot to put the drain plug in. Water filled the small aft bilge quickly and I was able to get the plug in before it got too far.

Can I just remove the plug and forget about by bilge pump and float switch?

Tom W Clark posted 08-15-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Maximus,

To answer your question: yes or no. How's that for clear and concise?

If you don't want water sloshing around the back of your boat, leave the plug in. If your boat is moored in an area of the country that is subject to heavy rains and you do not cover your boat and you do not mind green slime in your drain sump, then leave the plug out. If any of the three above conditions are not met then put the plug in (from the inside).

The plug in/plug out debate has been hashed out here on more than one occasion. It really comes down to personal preference. Whalers do not sink, period. They do, however, take on some water if the plug is left out. Whether the amount of water they take on is acceptable or not depends on the user. It is not as simple as asking whether the water taken onboard is above the deck or not, other considerations come into play.

If you have a smaller or older whaler that is moored in the water without a cover for long periods of time then it might pay to leave the plug out so it does not simply fill up with rain. However, there are Whalers, like my 18 OR, that will float with the deck high and dry even with one or two people on board but which bring water above deck if there is extra weight in the stern.

In my particular case my 18 OR would get my feet wet if the second person onboard came to the stern to help me, oh say, land a fish. The water level would rise up and soak our feet. Totally unacceptable. But the greater problem with leaving out the plug in one of these so called "self bailing" Whalers is that even if the deck is above water, the area below decks is flooded. In the case of my 18 OR this included the drain sump, the tunnels, and the area around the fuel tank. This amounted to a lot of water. With the plug out it made the boat a slug to get on plane because of the extra weight. I also did not like the idea of salt water soaking my aluminum fuel tank and all the wires and cables down in the tunnel.

I have owned 5 Whalers including the "classic" 13 Sport, 15 Striper, 17 Montauk, and 18 Outrage. In none of the above boats did I leave the plug out, though I could have. In only one, the 18 OR, did I have a bilge pump. On the smaller boats I simply pulled the plug while under way when there was any water to be drained.

In the past discussions on this topic I was baffled by the idea that one would choose to the leave the plug out but then I realized I live in the Pacific Northwest, where it rains a lot but seldom very heavily. And more to the point I have never had a Whaler (or other boat, for that matter) that was stored without a mooring cover on it. If your boat has a mooring cover the rain is not an issue. A mooring cover is the one thing that will make your boat last. It is the sunlight that destroys a boat (or anything else) more than the rain, and in my opinion a cover is a worthy investment. I just don't own "beater" boats.

As an aside, I drive by a boat storage yard every day here in my neighborhood and one of the tenants there has a very nice 22 OR with newer Yamaha reposer. It is presently all buffed out and gorgeous. Clearly the owner has been putting some effort into spiffing her up. But he/she has no cover on her! All last winter there was a blue tarp, blown off the boat exposing it to the elements. It makes me cringe. This summer, no tarp at all and contrary to our reputation, Seattle has been suffering through relentless sunshine and warmth all summer. That poor boat.

Wasabi posted 08-16-2001 12:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wasabi  Send Email to Wasabi     
For what it's worth: I have a '97 21' Outrage with a 250hp Yammie on the back. I have NEVER (ever) used the plugs except, of course, for the bilge drain below the water line. Hell, I don't even know what I did with the plugs after I bought the boat. It has always self-bailed without fail. It's always fun to back down on a fish to the point that the sea water is covering your ankles and then watch the water rapidly make an exit once the engine is out of reverse.
lhg posted 08-16-2001 12:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
The new, larger Whalers now have Garwood drain plugs below the water line, requiring a wrench to open them up from the outside, when the boat is out of water. This is the way most other boats are made, but prior to the Reebock/Meridian/Brunswick era, Whalers never had these. No such animal on the 25 Outrage/Revenge, or smaller models.

The newer Whalers now have deep dark compartments under the water line that are not self bailing at all, a feature I decidedly do not like. This is a result of the hull construction changes now utilizing a third liner panel to dress out the interior of the boat. Spaces below this liner will hold water. The boats will not sink, but if the bilge pump fails, these areas will fill up with water that you can't get rid of by pulling a 1" drain plug. I do not know if the contained weight of water being carried would prevent the boat from planing out.

Whaletosh posted 08-16-2001 04:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaletosh    
Larry,

I think your assement of the lack of planing in the newer hulls is probably correct. I think I will do an experiment next summer to find out. I would like to do so on a shallow lake that is warm.

A couple of items that somewhat negates this on my Dauntless 14. One, the gas tank takes up considerable space in the bilge. The bilge is relatively sealed from the deck. There aren't many entry points into the bilge.

I think that the bilge on my Dauntless resembles the bilge on a Outrage 18/25. A fiberglass plate that covers a cavity, with the cavity mostly filled by the gas tank. But maybe there is more free space for water to fill up and make the boat hard to plane.


Sean

B Bear posted 08-16-2001 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
Sean,
I believe that the third liner panel Larry is talking about is only found on the larger Whalers such as the Defiant and the Conquest that have a cuddy or cabin. Your 14 and my 16 are not constructed with this third liner panel. If you were to let your bilge flood you would experience the same results as Tursiki did, as he described in his first post on this thread.
Bear

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