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Author Topic:   1985 18' Outrage

whalerfran posted 09-08-2001 08:22 PM ET (US)
A local dealer has one for sale for $9500. It is powered with a 1985 Evinrude 150 (haven't had it checked) and has a newer trailer not in good shape. The fiberglass is in fair condition with some repair needed on the keel up front. Teak is good. Bimini and cover in decent shape. What should I look for in examining the boat closely, and what do you think of the price?
JBCornwell posted 09-08-2001 09:28 PM ET (US)
The price looks very good, unless there is an expensive 'Gotcha" hiding in there somewhere.
Red sky at night. . .
JB :)
LarrySherman posted 09-08-2001 10:07 PM ET (US)
Check all the thru-hulls. Sick your finger up inside them while the boat sits on the trailer. Make sure they are intact. Check the transom over carefully, look for stress cracks. Also look over the gelcoat where the transome meets the sides of the boat. Look for a color change. This is a sign of a transome rebuild.
Look over steering, if its not hydraulic, or it is hydraulic, but says "Sy-Ten" then you know your in to spend $1000. Look over the electrical system carefully. Ensure corosion is not too bad, system is well wired.
Etc...
bigz posted 09-09-2001 06:54 AM ET (US)
Aside from what Mr. Sherman stated, which won't be an issue unless totally abused, which the initial visual check can determine.
Get the dealer to check out the 150hp unless your thinking of repowering. Make sure it has been upgraded for unleaded alcohol fuel. The dealer can tell, generally if it has been a small sticker was usually applied stating this fact on the pan or hood. Check the compression, and have them pull a pressure/vacuum test on the lower unit. If you buy her you'll probably want them to do a full service and tune up anyway.
It probably has Teleflex steering, look at the tilt tube to see if it has been greased (maintained), then steer her a bit to see how much slop might be present. This is no big deal worse case is about $200 to replace helm and cable (reason I say both -- the dang steering cable cost is almost the cost of buying the whole sha-bang). Hydraulic isn't really necessary on an 18, sort of a luxury, doubt it has it.
The price seems decent for an '85 if it just needs a bit of work here and there. The keel repair? Now that might be a problem depending on the exact condition.
Good luck Tom
maverick posted 09-09-2001 08:06 AM ET (US)
Hi, WhalerFran -
1st, let me give you a comparison - I bought my 85 18.6 for $10.5k. Ran great, looked good (needed a good cleanup and some teak refinishing), but solid, no hull repairs, NO bottom paint, trailer solid. Old 1985 motor.
The motor may run good - for awhile - but eventually you will need/want to repower with new. It may be after you get stuck 2 miles out and need a tow in. I paid $8400 for my new 150, (old motor was worth $1500). Mine also has new hydraulic steering. Undercarriages on trailers can generally be rebuilt for about a couple hundred bucks if you do it yourself. You mentioned "repair needed on the keel up front". I would be immediately leery of ANY Whaler that has had repairs done, or needs any structural repair, PERIOD. There are too many out there for sale that have NO bottom paint and NO repairs done/needed for a few extra bucks (I mentioned bottom paint because sometimes paint is used to hide repairs. Not saying paint is automatically bad, but I'd be extra careful if it had it). You wrote, "Teak is good" - this costs about 4 hours work on sides and $10 worth of Tung oil to redo - not a biggie. Bottom line - the motor, even running good - will probably fetch $1500 or less. The hull with damage ... I'd be very leery and probably would pass on it, although I'm sure you could find someone to repair it to look like new. How much? Depends on what needs to be done, and what have you got when finished? A repaired Whaler. Like a wrecked car that's been fixed, you always have that question - is it as good as original? Do I want to hang a new $8000 motor on it? One will have to, eventually. My advice: unless you want to have a bunch of problems that you enjoy working on, find a GOOD solid, unrepaired hull, and either repower it with new or find a good overall package that has been recently repowered and is turnkey, and spend a little more to get it. Best, Mav
acseatsri posted 09-09-2001 08:58 AM ET (US)
Mav, I'm not totally sure about this, but I think bottom paint is almost a given on most Outrages. It was intended to be used on the ocean. After trailering my boat 4 times now, I've decided to get a slip next year. It's fairly heavy to trailer all the time, especially if you use it a couple times a week.
BTW, I'm DEFINITELY checking under the floor this winter due to the water I saw yesterday in the gas tank compartment. I'll have to start a new thread so that people can share their experiences on this endeavor.
bigz posted 09-09-2001 09:34 AM ET (US)
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001130.html this is the most recent on deck removal "acseatsri" and if you do a search you'll find a few more --- So you don't have to start anything, already been done ;)!
On the motor unless corrected by member Witness, our once owned '81 175 Johnson is still running strong on a '78 deep V Outrage somewhere -- guess just how you take care of things! So "whalerfran" don't dismiss it out right, have it checked, easy since it is already at a dealers. Might give you a lot more years of service!
Dings and gouges in the hull are common place and any boat from back in the 80's with out some repair work is a rare bird indeed. In this case the boat is in FL, bottom paint is "generally" the norm and well it should be if your berthing it instead of hauling it all the time.
Few more cents worth for encourgement --- Tom
acseatsri posted 09-09-2001 10:22 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the link, bigz. I need to get a little more detail on the floor construction underneath than what currently exists on the thread you referenced, though.
Here's my 2 cents on the older motor. After all the horror stories about the DFI outboards and the introduction of larger 4-stroke motors, I think I'm very happy to run my 1988 150 VRO (purrs like a kitten) for a few more years until 2-stroke totally disappears and larger 4-stroke motors have a couple years of satisfactory dependability under their belts. The newer DFI motors just have too many parts subject to failure. The 4-stroke engine has a LONG track record in both cars, boats, and motorcycles. We just need to wait and see who eventually wins the race here.
maverick posted 09-09-2001 01:26 PM ET (US)
Regarding "...checking under the floor this winter due to the water I saw yesterday in the gas tank compartment...." That's definitely a good idea, but after the heavy floor is removed, you'll note that the underside is completely "finished", a nice rarity in boats, and a norm for Whaler. After studying my 18.6 carefully (with the floor out)I believe the underside is designed to self drain, and being wet is no harm other than growing a little mildew, and possible slight corrosion to the gas tank IF saltwater got in there and stayed there. My tank (1985) looked excellent. The gas FILL HOSE, however was in seriously poor condition, and I was very glad to have caught that rotted piece to replace with new USCG approved hoses (fill and breather, too). I believe the only that'll destroy a Whaler is fire, hence my emphasis on the fill hose, and little concern over the water. Regarding the bottom paint, I agree in principle, it's a good thing for a moored boat, but <I> would want to KNOW what was underneath before I bought, or know/trust the guy I was getting it from. Mav
acseatsri posted 09-09-2001 04:33 PM ET (US)
Thanks, Mav! I have a couple more questions now. How hard was it to get the floor up? Did you just remove screws, cut the caulk with a razor blade, and pry it up? My floor is SOLID, but I don't like the idea of the tank sitting in saltwater. Did you remove the tank as well to look at it? Was it hard to get out, as I know it's foamed in place? My plan is to pull it out, inspect, and then if it looks good, I'll encapsulate it in 105 resin and fiberglass cloth and never worry about it again. I'm really puzzled that they'd allow the tank to sit in salt water.
maverick posted 09-09-2001 04:45 PM ET (US)
AFTER all cables and wires from the console were disconnected, then yes, just remove screws, cut the caulk with a razor blade, and pry the floor up. I had taken the seat off (left the seat stands), and removed the console from the floor first to lighten it up. The floor is HEAVY and BULKY. I'd guess 100 pounds, at least it felt like it. On mine, the tank was sealed in with some type of foam, likely from Whaler factory. As far as the tank sitting in saltwater, I'm sure the Whaler engineers took this into consideration, and I didn't want to break the seal, therefore I left the tank sit right there as it looked very good. I did remove rear round tank cover (about 8" diameter) and looked carefully into the tank - was shiny and smooth. It's a BIG job to take the floor out, but remember, I was in the midst of repowering my 18 - so I had stripped out ALL wires, cables, everything, making it an easier plan to follow and accomplish. **********ALL 18.6 Owners******** - CHECK your FILL HOSES - mine was badly rotted at the 90 degree (about 1 ft under the fill cap), and could have caused gas leakage and FIRE!!!!! Simply REMOVE the inspection covers (2) on the port side, and take a good look. I'm pretty certain you can replace both the filler and vent hoses just by using the inspection covers...without removing the floor. Mav
acseatsri posted 09-09-2001 08:00 PM ET (US)
well, you've almost convinced me that I may be doing a lot of unnecessary work. I am planning to move the batteries to the console, though. I don't like them sitting in the splash well, as it adds to the weight in the stern which really doesn't help planing speed in choppy seas, as well as the boat taking on water in the stern when several "less than lean" people sit in the stern. Found this out this weekend when I had a couple friends go fishing with me. It's amazing how fast the water evacuates when doing 25 knots!
Another question- can you get the steering cables out without pulling the floor? I'm installing hydraulic steering this week. If anyone would like the old twin-cable system, drop me an email- you can have it for the cost of shipping. Otherwise it goes out in the garbage.
Peter posted 09-09-2001 09:25 PM ET (US)
I don't believe that you will ever eliminate water from contacting the Outrage tank. We need to get some opinions here but you may actually do more harm encapsulating the tank than to leave it be. The tanks are made from aluminum and aluminum forms aluminum oxide (AlO2) in the presence of oxygen. Aluminum oxide is very corrosion resistant. Thus, any part of the tank exposed to water, even saltwater, and air should form a film of aluminum oxide and be protected from further corrosion. Major aluminum corrosion problems come from the continous abrading of the aluminum oxide film or lack of sufficient oxygen to form the oxide layer. So before you encapsulate, do some research. If encapsulating was a good idea, I would think Whaler would have done so.
acseatsri posted 09-09-2001 09:36 PM ET (US)
OK, guys, you've convinced me that the water I'm seeing is normal. If it aint broke, don't fix it! But I would see no harm in sealing the tank in fiberglass as a preventive measure. If no air or water could get at the aluminum, what good would the aluminum oxide layer be? Anyways, I'd be more concerned with electrolysis eating the tank than corrosion at this point. I'm sure you've seen the results on outboards when the sacrificial zincs were gone.
eric_from_MD posted 09-10-2001 03:50 PM ET (US)
My project guardian was completely stripped when I got it so lifting the floor seamed like a good idea. The boat is an 88. This is a quick summary of what I did and found. I had no console or seats to deal with. Remove the screws and caulk pry and lift (2 people atleast) the floor off. I took a hand saw and cut all along the side of the tank to break the foams seal and lifted the tank out. Inside the tank looked new but there where several signs of corrosion on the exterior. Water that gets into the tanks tub can never get completely out. I removed the tank and have pics to show this. Be it right or wrong I took a grinder with 36 grit paper and sanded the exterior to clean and roughen for glass. Then 2 layer of 6 oz. cloth and epoxy where used to encapsulate the entire tank. My thinking was that if water and air can't get to it they can't harm it.
bigz posted 09-10-2001 04:11 PM ET (US)
Your tank is illegal and you can be cited by the USGC -- you will have to have it re-certified unless you left the certification plaque exposed -- sorry for the bad news Eric, hopefully the plaque is exposed and legible .
Though chances of this happening are slim, just thought I would warn you.
Whole set of regulations which cover tanks and certification.
The cavity under the tank should drain which you could accomplish! BW sealed the deck cover to prevent this from occurring when these boats were built. This is an area is generally over looked on older Whalers. It now is illegal to foam in place any fuel tank where there is a possibility of water being trapped either from a "dam" effect or the foam holding water.
PS if one is concerned about the oxidation on the exterior a coat of zinc chromate brushed on would have been sufficient.
tbyrne posted 09-11-2001 08:36 AM ET (US)
Whalerfran, I'd also look for waves in the outer gunwale/form of the hull (look along outside of hull from stern to bow). Some of 18'6" hulls of that vintage had a delamination problem which leads to a world of trouble. Also, look carefully at the decks for signs of softness, which could be tied to delamination. Good luck!

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Author	Topic: 1985 18' Outrage
whalerfran	posted 09-08-2001 08:22 PM ET (US) A local dealer has one for sale for $9500. It is powered with a 1985 Evinrude 150 (haven't had it checked) and has a newer trailer not in good shape. The fiberglass is in fair condition with some repair needed on the keel up front. Teak is good. Bimini and cover in decent shape. What should I look for in examining the boat closely, and what do you think of the price?
JBCornwell	posted 09-08-2001 09:28 PM ET (US) The price looks very good, unless there is an expensive 'Gotcha" hiding in there somewhere. Red sky at night. . . JB :)
LarrySherman	posted 09-08-2001 10:07 PM ET (US) Check all the thru-hulls. Sick your finger up inside them while the boat sits on the trailer. Make sure they are intact. Check the transom over carefully, look for stress cracks. Also look over the gelcoat where the transome meets the sides of the boat. Look for a color change. This is a sign of a transome rebuild. Look over steering, if its not hydraulic, or it is hydraulic, but says "Sy-Ten" then you know your in to spend $1000. Look over the electrical system carefully. Ensure corosion is not too bad, system is well wired. Etc...
bigz	posted 09-09-2001 06:54 AM ET (US) Aside from what Mr. Sherman stated, which won't be an issue unless totally abused, which the initial visual check can determine. Get the dealer to check out the 150hp unless your thinking of repowering. Make sure it has been upgraded for unleaded alcohol fuel. The dealer can tell, generally if it has been a small sticker was usually applied stating this fact on the pan or hood. Check the compression, and have them pull a pressure/vacuum test on the lower unit. If you buy her you'll probably want them to do a full service and tune up anyway. It probably has Teleflex steering, look at the tilt tube to see if it has been greased (maintained), then steer her a bit to see how much slop might be present. This is no big deal worse case is about $200 to replace helm and cable (reason I say both -- the dang steering cable cost is almost the cost of buying the whole sha-bang). Hydraulic isn't really necessary on an 18, sort of a luxury, doubt it has it. The price seems decent for an '85 if it just needs a bit of work here and there. The keel repair? Now that might be a problem depending on the exact condition. Good luck Tom
maverick	posted 09-09-2001 08:06 AM ET (US) Hi, WhalerFran - 1st, let me give you a comparison - I bought my 85 18.6 for $10.5k. Ran great, looked good (needed a good cleanup and some teak refinishing), but solid, no hull repairs, NO bottom paint, trailer solid. Old 1985 motor. The motor may run good - for awhile - but eventually you will need/want to repower with new. It may be after you get stuck 2 miles out and need a tow in. I paid $8400 for my new 150, (old motor was worth $1500). Mine also has new hydraulic steering. Undercarriages on trailers can generally be rebuilt for about a couple hundred bucks if you do it yourself. You mentioned "repair needed on the keel up front". I would be immediately leery of ANY Whaler that has had repairs done, or needs any structural repair, PERIOD. There are too many out there for sale that have NO bottom paint and NO repairs done/needed for a few extra bucks (I mentioned bottom paint because sometimes paint is used to hide repairs. Not saying paint is automatically bad, but I'd be extra careful if it had it). You wrote, "Teak is good" - this costs about 4 hours work on sides and $10 worth of Tung oil to redo - not a biggie. Bottom line - the motor, even running good - will probably fetch $1500 or less. The hull with damage ... I'd be very leery and probably would pass on it, although I'm sure you could find someone to repair it to look like new. How much? Depends on what needs to be done, and what have you got when finished? A repaired Whaler. Like a wrecked car that's been fixed, you always have that question - is it as good as original? Do I want to hang a new $8000 motor on it? One will have to, eventually. My advice: unless you want to have a bunch of problems that you enjoy working on, find a GOOD solid, unrepaired hull, and either repower it with new or find a good overall package that has been recently repowered and is turnkey, and spend a little more to get it. Best, Mav
acseatsri	posted 09-09-2001 08:58 AM ET (US) Mav, I'm not totally sure about this, but I think bottom paint is almost a given on most Outrages. It was intended to be used on the ocean. After trailering my boat 4 times now, I've decided to get a slip next year. It's fairly heavy to trailer all the time, especially if you use it a couple times a week. BTW, I'm DEFINITELY checking under the floor this winter due to the water I saw yesterday in the gas tank compartment. I'll have to start a new thread so that people can share their experiences on this endeavor.
bigz	posted 09-09-2001 09:34 AM ET (US) http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001130.html this is the most recent on deck removal "acseatsri" and if you do a search you'll find a few more --- So you don't have to start anything, already been done ;)! On the motor unless corrected by member Witness, our once owned '81 175 Johnson is still running strong on a '78 deep V Outrage somewhere -- guess just how you take care of things! So "whalerfran" don't dismiss it out right, have it checked, easy since it is already at a dealers. Might give you a lot more years of service! Dings and gouges in the hull are common place and any boat from back in the 80's with out some repair work is a rare bird indeed. In this case the boat is in FL, bottom paint is "generally" the norm and well it should be if your berthing it instead of hauling it all the time. Few more cents worth for encourgement --- Tom
acseatsri	posted 09-09-2001 10:22 AM ET (US) Thanks for the link, bigz. I need to get a little more detail on the floor construction underneath than what currently exists on the thread you referenced, though. Here's my 2 cents on the older motor. After all the horror stories about the DFI outboards and the introduction of larger 4-stroke motors, I think I'm very happy to run my 1988 150 VRO (purrs like a kitten) for a few more years until 2-stroke totally disappears and larger 4-stroke motors have a couple years of satisfactory dependability under their belts. The newer DFI motors just have too many parts subject to failure. The 4-stroke engine has a LONG track record in both cars, boats, and motorcycles. We just need to wait and see who eventually wins the race here.
maverick	posted 09-09-2001 01:26 PM ET (US) Regarding "...checking under the floor this winter due to the water I saw yesterday in the gas tank compartment...." That's definitely a good idea, but after the heavy floor is removed, you'll note that the underside is completely "finished", a nice rarity in boats, and a norm for Whaler. After studying my 18.6 carefully (with the floor out)I believe the underside is designed to self drain, and being wet is no harm other than growing a little mildew, and possible slight corrosion to the gas tank IF saltwater got in there and stayed there. My tank (1985) looked excellent. The gas FILL HOSE, however was in seriously poor condition, and I was very glad to have caught that rotted piece to replace with new USCG approved hoses (fill and breather, too). I believe the only that'll destroy a Whaler is fire, hence my emphasis on the fill hose, and little concern over the water. Regarding the bottom paint, I agree in principle, it's a good thing for a moored boat, but <I> would want to KNOW what was underneath before I bought, or know/trust the guy I was getting it from. Mav
acseatsri	posted 09-09-2001 04:33 PM ET (US) Thanks, Mav! I have a couple more questions now. How hard was it to get the floor up? Did you just remove screws, cut the caulk with a razor blade, and pry it up? My floor is SOLID, but I don't like the idea of the tank sitting in saltwater. Did you remove the tank as well to look at it? Was it hard to get out, as I know it's foamed in place? My plan is to pull it out, inspect, and then if it looks good, I'll encapsulate it in 105 resin and fiberglass cloth and never worry about it again. I'm really puzzled that they'd allow the tank to sit in salt water.
maverick	posted 09-09-2001 04:45 PM ET (US) AFTER all cables and wires from the console were disconnected, then yes, just remove screws, cut the caulk with a razor blade, and pry the floor up. I had taken the seat off (left the seat stands), and removed the console from the floor first to lighten it up. The floor is HEAVY and BULKY. I'd guess 100 pounds, at least it felt like it. On mine, the tank was sealed in with some type of foam, likely from Whaler factory. As far as the tank sitting in saltwater, I'm sure the Whaler engineers took this into consideration, and I didn't want to break the seal, therefore I left the tank sit right there as it looked very good. I did remove rear round tank cover (about 8" diameter) and looked carefully into the tank - was shiny and smooth. It's a BIG job to take the floor out, but remember, I was in the midst of repowering my 18 - so I had stripped out ALL wires, cables, everything, making it an easier plan to follow and accomplish. ********ALL 18.6 Owners****** - CHECK your FILL HOSES - mine was badly rotted at the 90 degree (about 1 ft under the fill cap), and could have caused gas leakage and FIRE!!!!! Simply REMOVE the inspection covers (2) on the port side, and take a good look. I'm pretty certain you can replace both the filler and vent hoses just by using the inspection covers...without removing the floor. Mav
acseatsri	posted 09-09-2001 08:00 PM ET (US) well, you've almost convinced me that I may be doing a lot of unnecessary work. I am planning to move the batteries to the console, though. I don't like them sitting in the splash well, as it adds to the weight in the stern which really doesn't help planing speed in choppy seas, as well as the boat taking on water in the stern when several "less than lean" people sit in the stern. Found this out this weekend when I had a couple friends go fishing with me. It's amazing how fast the water evacuates when doing 25 knots! Another question- can you get the steering cables out without pulling the floor? I'm installing hydraulic steering this week. If anyone would like the old twin-cable system, drop me an email- you can have it for the cost of shipping. Otherwise it goes out in the garbage.
Peter	posted 09-09-2001 09:25 PM ET (US) I don't believe that you will ever eliminate water from contacting the Outrage tank. We need to get some opinions here but you may actually do more harm encapsulating the tank than to leave it be. The tanks are made from aluminum and aluminum forms aluminum oxide (AlO2) in the presence of oxygen. Aluminum oxide is very corrosion resistant. Thus, any part of the tank exposed to water, even saltwater, and air should form a film of aluminum oxide and be protected from further corrosion. Major aluminum corrosion problems come from the continous abrading of the aluminum oxide film or lack of sufficient oxygen to form the oxide layer. So before you encapsulate, do some research. If encapsulating was a good idea, I would think Whaler would have done so.
acseatsri	posted 09-09-2001 09:36 PM ET (US) OK, guys, you've convinced me that the water I'm seeing is normal. If it aint broke, don't fix it! But I would see no harm in sealing the tank in fiberglass as a preventive measure. If no air or water could get at the aluminum, what good would the aluminum oxide layer be? Anyways, I'd be more concerned with electrolysis eating the tank than corrosion at this point. I'm sure you've seen the results on outboards when the sacrificial zincs were gone.
eric_from_MD	posted 09-10-2001 03:50 PM ET (US) My project guardian was completely stripped when I got it so lifting the floor seamed like a good idea. The boat is an 88. This is a quick summary of what I did and found. I had no console or seats to deal with. Remove the screws and caulk pry and lift (2 people atleast) the floor off. I took a hand saw and cut all along the side of the tank to break the foams seal and lifted the tank out. Inside the tank looked new but there where several signs of corrosion on the exterior. Water that gets into the tanks tub can never get completely out. I removed the tank and have pics to show this. Be it right or wrong I took a grinder with 36 grit paper and sanded the exterior to clean and roughen for glass. Then 2 layer of 6 oz. cloth and epoxy where used to encapsulate the entire tank. My thinking was that if water and air can't get to it they can't harm it.
bigz	posted 09-10-2001 04:11 PM ET (US) Your tank is illegal and you can be cited by the USGC -- you will have to have it re-certified unless you left the certification plaque exposed -- sorry for the bad news Eric, hopefully the plaque is exposed and legible . Though chances of this happening are slim, just thought I would warn you. Whole set of regulations which cover tanks and certification. The cavity under the tank should drain which you could accomplish! BW sealed the deck cover to prevent this from occurring when these boats were built. This is an area is generally over looked on older Whalers. It now is illegal to foam in place any fuel tank where there is a possibility of water being trapped either from a "dam" effect or the foam holding water. PS if one is concerned about the oxidation on the exterior a coat of zinc chromate brushed on would have been sufficient.
tbyrne	posted 09-11-2001 08:36 AM ET (US) Whalerfran, I'd also look for waves in the outer gunwale/form of the hull (look along outside of hull from stern to bow). Some of 18'6" hulls of that vintage had a delamination problem which leads to a world of trouble. Also, look carefully at the decks for signs of softness, which could be tied to delamination. Good luck!