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Author Topic:   "First Bombardier built outboards have shipped"
bigz posted 10-19-2001 08:09 AM ET (US)   Profile for bigz  
I guess this should have been posted here instead of the "marketplace"!

Since we do have a lot of the members sporting J&E motors on their Whalers -- the news release story touches on both old and new --

Thanks to "Witness" we have the correct link.

http://www.boating-industry.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=26504

I might add this was quite an accomplishment in such a short time frame -- Tom

blackdog posted 10-19-2001 09:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
I meant to post this yesterday but this seems like a good spot under Bigz's post. Check out the "Rebirth Of E&J ! Looks like a large investment.

http://www.evinrude.com/rebirth/index.htm

whalernut posted 10-20-2001 08:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for whalernut  Send Email to whalernut     
Very interesting articles. It is good to know J&E is back up and running. The one thing that does trouble me is that Parts and Engines under 25h.p. are being made in Mexico, Hong Kong, etc. I can`t believe the venerable 9.9h.p. engine is going to be totally made in another country! What gives here? Why would Bomb. do this practice? Is this the practice of Mercury?? And was this the practice of J&E before going bankrupt? Regards-Jack Graner.
jbtaz posted 10-23-2001 12:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jbtaz  Send Email to jbtaz     
Yeah I heard J&E are up and running again. I'm not sure they'll ever be a player like they once were though. Mercury and Yamaha really have control of the market and the transoms.
jimh posted 10-23-2001 06:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It is funny to see the reaction of some folks to the production of a product overseas. Jack laments about Evinrude's smaller engines being made in Mexico or Honk Kong.

On the other hand, people buy Honda or Yamaha or Nissan or Tohotsu or Suziki engines--all made overseas--and think nothing of it. In fact, they might think that being made overseas is part of what makes them better than American products!

--jimh

whalernut posted 10-23-2001 07:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalernut  Send Email to whalernut     
Jim, you have a very good point and I would like to clarify my reasoning. I would rather buy a Japanese made outboard, than an outboard that is an American or Canadian company that has their product made over-seas or Mexico. If you are a comampany from the States or Canada, have you`re product made there!!! Even the venerable Carhardt clothes have some of their line now assembled in Mexico, that is a giant no-no in my book. Same for Levi`s, Osh-Kosh, Rocky boots, and the like. All company`s that have their product made or assembled somewhere else instead of here in the U.S.A. where they once were. I remember when Woolrich did it years ago and I vowed never to buy their stuff again, and I won`t. Levi`s even still charges crazy prices for their jeans even though they are made/assembled in Mexico, isn`t the labor cheap there? I would now either buy a Mercury or a Japanese always made outboard, unless I find out if Mercury has the same Foreign made parts/outboards practice as J/E? Regards-Jack Graner.
Highwater posted 10-23-2001 07:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Highwater    
I do not know where Honda outboards are made, but I do know that all Honda GoldWing motorcycles—even those sold overseas—are made in Marysville, Ohio, not Japan.
Dick posted 10-23-2001 08:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
Made in the USA doesn't mean that all of the parts were made in the USA.
I know that my Merc 50/4stk has parts made in other countries. I wouldn't be surprised if my Ford F-150 had parts from other countries as well. It wouldn't surprise me if the SS hardware BW uses comes from Taiwan.
I don't care, all are excellent products and have served me well.
My primary concern is a quality product at a fair price and a warranty that I can rely on.
Dick
blackdog posted 10-24-2001 09:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for blackdog  Send Email to blackdog     
Jim has a valid point. I think we have lost pride in our Mfg capabilities here is the US in certain sectors. I find myself doing the exact same thing Jim mentions above when looking at cars. If I see VW is made in Germany I assume it is better than one made in the US. Why??? If they Make VW’s in the US? Or better yet certain Hondas are made in Japan and Other In the US, same thing..
bigz posted 10-24-2001 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
I have been informed there will be a major announcement shortly regarding Johnson motors under 20hp. The tentative information will be 4 strokes only. Reasoning is that 2 strokes will only allowed to be manufactured for 2 more years.

The Evinrude lower horsepower motors will by 2003 all Ficht Ram Injection. I think 15 or 20hp will be the smallest made in this configuration.

Bombardier is still trying to fine tune their dealer relations and marketing strategy as I recently heard from 2 dealers.

Regarding JimH comments, I don't think whether an outboard motor is made here or "over" there has much to do with the purchase decision these days.

The purchase of an outboard motor for instance is dictated by the offering meaning that it will suit your particular need (in most cases many brands will) perceived quality, then price, service availability, warranty, and whether the buyer is inclined to a predisposed prejudice of certain brands (could be number One for some).

Back in the simple old days you had J&E, Mercury, and Chrysler as the majors, with a handful of want a be like the Homelite, Bundy (Italian) and a smattering of others which frankly never left the starting gate. It wasn't until Yamaha in the mid eighties entered the picture that foreign made outboard made the first significant impact on the US market. Even then prejudice was evident and took them a while to overcome the J&E and Mercury crowd. Eventually Yamaha did because they gained a reputation of a solid dependable motor units with some notable innovations. It certainly helped that quite a few popular quality boat manufactures offered along with the domestic pre-rig packages the Yamaha. Take BW for one example in the days before Brunswick/Mercury the Johnson and then Yamaha pre-rig were the package of choice.

Off the outboard subject to my buddy Whalernut alias Jack.

Jack I also miss the fact that companies like Woolrich, LL Bean (at least their Bean Boot is still sewn in Maine and the molded rubber foot/sole are supplied by LaCrosse)and a handful of other venerable US outdoor clothing and shoe/boot makers have switched production from US bases to foreign ones. Particularly in the area of boots. You have to read the fine print these days to see if US made. One give away though is if they state the boots can be re-soled, 9 times out of 10 these will still be US made footwear.

Tom

Kelly posted 10-24-2001 11:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for Kelly  Send Email to Kelly     
I personally think that J & E have a good chance at being a major player in the outboard motor business again for several reasons. 1. I think there are still quite a few people that would like to buy J & E, particularily if they are repowering from a J & E motor. 2. There are going to be quite a few technological changes in all of the motors over the next few years, so I think people are fairly receptive to new motors. 3. I don't think Yamaha is the shinning star it was a few years ago. Sharing components with Mercury has not improved the perception of Yamaha in my mind, whether real or imaginary. 4. J & E have a strong dealer network, if they can keep it together. 5. As someone stated erlier, Mercury and Yamaha control the market at this time. It seems to me that just about the time someone controls a market, they start worrying more about number of units sold than quality, and that seems to open the door for someone else. Kelly
WantaWhale posted 10-24-2001 04:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for WantaWhale  Send Email to WantaWhale     
I wish J&E well. I think people liked OMC because generaly they were well a built quality product. It was one American product that you didn't feel ashamed to own. It really sucks that they went under ( but it does make me feel better to hear that part of the reason was due to them trying to stand behind a faulty product).


RE: Yamaha. They were not the first Japanese outboard motor as I can remember seeing a Honda back in 1975. They were small and nobody pushed them (as they were 4strokes) but they were there.

Also, Kelly I think you might be right but for a different reason. A buddy of mine 3 blocks down the road came to see my boat a few weeks ago. We share hobbies (boats and motorcyles) and he mentioned that he was thinking repowering one of his boats. He said it would be a Honda for sure. While I am a big Honda fan, he is open to other brands and I asked him what about Yamaha. He said no and I asked him why. He said it while it is a very well built outboard, it has the same problem as their motorcycles : after a few years the company orphans the model and you can no longer get replacement parts. He mentioned that right now a dealer buddy is trying to get parts for a late 80's mariner (built by yamaha) and having zero luck and they are no longer avaible. Yet I can still get parts for my 1975 Honda (not all but most). So that is something to consider if you plan on keeping it for awhile. I bet OMC and Mercury parts are not that hard to get as well.

bigz posted 10-24-2001 04:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
The problems with the Fitch were the result of OMC trying to go on the cheap and rush a product out the door before fully tested, not the fault of the basic system design for a nutshell explanation.

Bombardier will have Ficht's and 4 Strokes only by 2003.

Thought Mariner was made by Mercury? Maybe Yamaha made some for them, probably the 4 strokes as they did for the Mercury brand!

Dick posted 10-24-2001 04:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
If I remember correctly all Mariners 60 HP and below were totaly built by Yamaha untill 1990.
John from Madison CT posted 10-24-2001 08:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for John from Madison CT  Send Email to John from Madison CT     
Why is it that 2 Japanese Outboard companies are the first to have large 4 stroke motors?

J&E and Merc. don't even have anything announced as far as I know.

The success of the large 200/225hp Four Strokes will devastate J&E as well as Merc..

I've heard the Yamaha 225hp 4 stroke run the other day. All I could really hear was the Piss stream. If I was in the market for a large V6 , based on the lousy R&D work and lack of forward thinking, I wouldn't even consider and American made outboard.

I'm really sorry to say that, but American quality used to sell products, not just "buy American" campaigns.

John From Madison, CT

David Ratusnik posted 10-24-2001 08:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
The last post gets at the really big issue for me--just when will J&E announce the availabilty of a big (225 etc hp) 4 stroke. I'm running a rebuilt 225 Johnson 2 stroke and figure time is running out. My mechanic is a genius who works only on J+E. Anyone with any insight on the matter??
Peter posted 10-24-2001 08:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
John,

Basically, I think Yamaha and Honda were the first because they could dig into their deep R D & E efforts relating to their motorcycle and automobile products. OMC and Merc lacked this depth.

Bobber posted 10-24-2001 10:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bobber  Send Email to Bobber     
Bombsaways 2002 line up does not include the venerable 3 cyl, 2 stroke 60 or 70 HP. These engines will not be produced again due to EPA requirements. So grab those leftover OMC's if you can still find one, I just got a 70 in the box for 4100 with full warranty.
WantaWhale posted 10-24-2001 11:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for WantaWhale  Send Email to WantaWhale     
"Why is it that 2 Japanese Outboard companies are the first to have large 4 stroke motors?"

A: Because this is a repeat of 1975 for Honda and Yamaha. For several reasons, Honda has always prefered 4 stokes for their motorcycles. They did make a few 2 strokes but mostly for a few dirt bikes. Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki all used 2 strokes even for their street bikes (most were air cooled). But around this time , epa and reliability issues forced the other 3 companies to switch over to 4 stroke engines.
Honda has always beat the other guys in sales and I suspect Yamaha didn't want a repeat of 25+ years ago. Thats not to say OMC/Mercury can't catch on just like Yamaha had to do back then.

Outboards are watercooled and reliabilty is not really an issue this time around. Its all EPA driven , so I am sticking with what I have until I have to repower.

jimh posted 10-24-2001 11:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I can't help but observe that both Yamaha and Bombardier also make JET-SKIs! That must be were they get the the extra funding to do their engine research!

I don't think Mercury makes Jet-Skis, do they?

Whalerdan posted 10-25-2001 04:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalerdan  Send Email to Whalerdan     
If FICHT really ends up working (when they get all the bugs out) then there should be no need for J&E to have any four strokes. From a horsepower perspective, a two stroke engine makes alot more sense to me.
John from Madison CT posted 10-25-2001 08:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for John from Madison CT  Send Email to John from Madison CT     
WhalerDan,

Even if Ficht finally does work someday (I surely wouldn't want to be the Guinea Pig of a $14K product), still I believe 4 Strokes will dominate the market, and that's with EPA issues aside.
Yamaha has a real winner with their HPDI motors (150, 175 and 200HP 2 strokes) but they still decided to produce 225/200's because they feel the market will be all 4 Stroke in a few years. With many lakes banning 2 strokes, despite compliance of many of the them, the 4 strokes will become the products of choice.

hauptjm posted 10-25-2001 10:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Actually the problem isn't the Ficht technology, just the application in cetain size engines. I would have to assume that if they (J&E) can make it work in the 150hp range, the engineers will figure out the faults in larger engines. As far as 4 vs. 2 stroke, who knows what the future holds. What we do know is the Ficht 2 stroke is as clean as the 4 stroke without the added weight or loss of power. Remember, Lake Tahoe, very tough enviromentally, doesn't allow 2 stroke engines in any fashion with one exception, the Ficht. It is the only 2 allowed.
David Ratusnik posted 10-25-2001 10:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
The folks I talk with fully agree that 4 strokes will put all 2 strokes (including DFI) out of business. I am surprised that more is not known about J+E intentions with a big 4 stroke. The only advantage I can think of with a 2 stroke may be yanking my kids out of the water on their wakeboards abit quicker due to the initial boost in rpms from the 2 stroke. I've heard that Bomb. bought OMC for the Ficht tech in order to apply it to 2 stroke motors with a future that are outside of marine applications. May be they could careless about what happens to their 2 strokes with Ficht tech.
bigz posted 10-25-2001 01:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
hauptjm, you'll be happy to know that the big 200,225 and 250hp Fichts are trouble free that were produced for the 2001 model year. The 2000 and the 1999 Fichts after the minor upgrade due to the injectors potentially leaking gas also are pretty much trouble free.

Bombardier has established a separate Ficht parts center which is charged with pre-testing components before assemble. In the same facilitate the Ficht engineering group resides.

David Ratusnik , 4 strokes certainly will be a major slice of the pie but they're to late yeah see the EPA and California are already knocking off the 2 strokes == chuckle === now that's tough competition

There are no immediate plans to produce a BIG 4 stroke by Bombardier -- how much bigger do you want than a 250 hp Ficht which offers the same or in most cases better performance than a 4 Stroke of the same caliber --- I did hear rumors Mercury has been testing a 250hp 4 stroke but no one can really confirm it

PS: least we forget the Optimax, Ficht and Yamaha HPDI plus all the 4 Strokes are still plain old outboards except for their fuel/lubrication delivery systems. Meaning all the other bad things which can and do occur with the venerable 2 Stroke outboards can and do happen with these motors.

Kelly posted 10-25-2001 01:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Kelly  Send Email to Kelly     
I think David might have something. Boats are not the only things that are concerned about hp and weight. Boabardier may (probably does) have other ideas.

As far as R & D. I think right now, Honda and Suzuki have far more to spend on R & D than anyone else. Both build cars, motorcycles, outboards and other things. The number of units made for automobiles dwarfs outboards. The culture at Honda goes back to the founder, Schochiro(sp) Honda. He was a motor person. They a are motor company. While I want J & E to be back strong, I personally think that Honda and Suzuki will be the motors of choice in a few years. Mercury and Yamaha will be more of the high volume lower cost providers.

Also, I talked with a long time J & E mechanic the other day. He said that the first year of FICHT was very good. The problems came when they tried to tweak things. Don't know, that is just what he said. Kelly

David Ratusnik posted 10-25-2001 02:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
Thanks for 2 thoughts just above. To me a big outboard is anything between 200 and 250 hp. Yes, I know a number of years ago Johnson produced 300 hp - yet it isn't anymore. I'm looking for the best repower 225 for my 22' outrage/with bracket. We seem to be betwixed and between right now. DFI's and 2 companies with 200/225 4 strokes. Tough choice it would seem. I would submit that over the life of an engine that the 4 stroke will be less expensive to run considering you do not have to inject oil. Also, if 4 strokes dominate, parts will become much more difficult to obtain for the 2 stroke DFI's. Anyone, owning a corvette ZR1 will quickly tell you about the problems finding parts for these motors put into cars for only 5/6 yrs. Another thought, if California is "knocking off" (?) 2 strokes of any sort, can the rest of the country be far behind. ?? David
Dick posted 10-25-2001 03:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dick  Send Email to Dick     
Don't sell Bombardier short on R&D, Their Rotax division has been producing some of the finest 2 strokes for years and is now producing 4 strokes. They have the knowledge and resources to make outstanding outboards.

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