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Author Topic:   25' Walkaround
jjf posted 11-02-2001 08:51 AM ET (US)   Profile for jjf   Send Email to jjf  
Take a look at this boat and let me know first what it is.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/4/9/1382449.htm

I don't think it's a Revenege 25. Was it really called a walkaround if not what model was it. There are two on Boat Trade Online they are both 1991s. How many years did they make this boat? It looks a lot like the 27' WA.

In short any info on this boat would be helpful.

Thanks

bigz posted 11-02-2001 09:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
It's a 25 Walk Around. They made a 21,23,25 and 27 WA until '94 I believe.

The 21 was outboard transon only, the 23 offered outboard transom, Whaler drive and a diesel option, the 25 and 27 Whaler drive only --- (note the 25 was the only original style Whaler drive, the 23 and 27 had a newer style Whaler drive bracket designed by Salt Shaler Marine)

The 25 was 27'11" LOA (pulpit not included),
9'6" beam, 18" draft, 4600lbs boat weight, max hp 550 and min to plane 300hp, and carried 250 gallons of gas.

jjf posted 11-02-2001 09:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for jjf  Send Email to jjf     
bigz,
Thanks for the info? Where did you get the spec data on the 25 WA. What is the cabin like on the 25 WA. Is there somewhere I can lookup spec data on older whalers?
John
jjf posted 11-03-2001 09:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jjf  Send Email to jjf     
Does anymore have pictures of the cabins of the 23 and 25 walkarounds?

I'd like the specs on the 23 as well.

Thanks

OutrageMan posted 11-03-2001 02:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
Somewhere in the cetacea is the picture of the '93 23 WA w/ WD that my father and I have used. In my humble opinion it is one of the worst riding whalers ever produced. It track horribly, and has very unpredictable steering. It has the habit of falling to port or starboard randomly after cresting a wave. Don't even get me started about getting it trim.

If you look in the catacea comment threads, you can see a whole discussion on these problems.

Brian

jjf posted 11-03-2001 09:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for jjf  Send Email to jjf     
OutrageMan,
Were there simliar problems with the 25' as well?
OutrageMan posted 11-03-2001 10:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for OutrageMan  Send Email to OutrageMan     
The only 25 I know anything about is the Outrage, and that is only cursory. Sorry.

Brian

lhg posted 11-05-2001 03:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
The 25 Walkaround you are all talking about is the 9'6" beam model. It is a Dougherty designed, classic looking, full transom Whaler Drive, desert tan hull, similiar to the 27 Walkaround, was introduced in 1990, and continued through 1992, I believe.

Nice boat, but unfortunately you don't see too many of them. Never figured out why it was discontinued so quickly. By 1994 someone at Whaler told me the market for their Walkarounds was terrible, and they were going back to the center console versions of these hulls, which became the 21 & 24 Outrage respectively. The 25 was simply dropped, and the 27 was converted into the Offshore model.

bigz posted 11-05-2001 03:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
Larry, the 27 WA was continued I believe through to '94.

I do have the '92-'93 catalog with the 25 WA you think it was discontinued that year?

I heard on the 27 WA that only about 200 or so were produced from '90 to '94.

We do forget '89 recession lasted until '93 and some states in the NE into '94. I think in general Whaler suffered just as all boat builders --- remember we did see lots of consolidations, acquisitions and bankruptcies in the marine industry during that '89 to '93 recession --- and all in all boat sales stunk ---

Those WA's weren't inexpensive toys either --

lhg posted 11-05-2001 05:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Tom - I think 93 was the last year for the 25 wide beam walkaround, and 1994 for the 27.
ron3637 posted 11-05-2001 06:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for ron3637  Send Email to ron3637     
[Deleted this posting which introduced new topic already being discussed in several concurrent threads--jimh]
jjf posted 11-06-2001 06:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for jjf  Send Email to jjf     
bigz,
I'd love to see that 92-93 Whaler catalog with the 25WA in it. Any ideas how we can make this happen (fax or scan & email?).

What other Whaler catalogs with WAs in them do you have?
John

Peter posted 11-06-2001 07:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Bigz

Back in that time frame, on top of the recession wasn't the gov't sockin' it to the boating industry with the luxury tax, finally repealed in about '92?


bigz posted 11-06-2001 08:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
Peter your right forgot about that "luxury tax" --- didn't it kick in on items over 10 grand or was it more?

Some fine boat builders went bottoms up --

I think Reebock (just conjecture) decided to sell to Meridian because they lost quite a bit over those years --- heard from a fellow who worked as a designer during that period at Whaler, Reebock was actually a very good parent --- Whaler could have easily bitten the dust without their support $$$$$ ---

John, just the one catalog -- will try in the next couple of days to scan (depends on my wife -- no scanner here) the 23 and 25 pages -- the 27 is already featured on this site in the photo section can't add much to that!

jjf posted 11-06-2001 09:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for jjf  Send Email to jjf     
bigz,
Look forward to seeing the 23 & 25 WAs.
Thanks
Translation posted 11-06-2001 07:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Translation    
The luxury tax nearly killed whaler because a great portion of Whaler's business was the Tender business back then, and people had stopped buying yachts as a tax protest....the recession did its own damage too.

bigz posted 11-07-2001 02:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
Translation -- I wasn't aware that BW sales focused to that extent on the "little" guys.

I would guess you're referring to all boats under say 20' not just the 9 and 13 correct?

Did know they popped the 13's out like cup cakes and--now that you mention it--I guess the profit margin on the 13's was/is substantial.

Makes sense to me --- it would appear the over 20' foot boats took a lot more labor since some of the variations needed considerable hand work to fit and finish even though the top and bottom molds used were the same in most cases.

Wondering if the start of the '89 recession was what prompted the total move down south and for CML to sell it? I realize CML from being a "darling" of Wall Street got themselves in difficulties to say the least! However, was it true that Bob D and a number of others were "asked" to leave prior to the sale to Reebock? If so, was it due to the fact that he and others were against the sale and may have had plans for the company themselves?

Don't bother to answer the above if you don't care to, really water over the dam. I may be asking too many questions to a person who at least appears to have had a relation with the company or still does and certainly the posts you have made are appreciated, so stick around when you can --- Tom

jimh posted 11-07-2001 08:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Interesting angle on how a surtax on boats over $100,000 almost sank Whaler, who probably didn't sell a boat over $100,000 at that time.
lhg posted 11-07-2001 08:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I have a somewhat different opinion, combined with a little information I have accumulated over the years, about the transition of BW from Classic to the "new White shapes".

First of all, I was told (by someone at the Company) that the Company was abruptly sold to Reebock because Irwin Jacobs, of Genmar & Qualcomm fame, was accumulating CML stock in an effort of taking over CML, specifically to get Boston Whaler in the deal. CML's stategy, to save their Holding Company, was to quickly divest themselves of Whaler so Jacobs would go away. Evidently the CML people knew the owner of Reebock, and asked him to buy the Company, which he did. It was during this period that Dougherty left, but I don't know what went on in that regard.

As we all know, this was the beginning of the major changes at BW that nearly brought the Company to it's knees, ending with Brunswick's takeover for 27 million in 1996. Reebock is reported to have been a good financial parent, but looking back, we know they still initiated the downhill slide of the company, and the reputation of it's boats. I just think they didn't know what they were doing with a company like Whaler, and brought in the wrong people to take over.
Reportedly, they had been losing about 5-10 million per year by the time they sold out to Meridian.

It is widely known, as mentioned, that at about this same time, late 1990, the whole marine business went into a recession. So the Reebock management couldn't have picked a worse time to blindside the traditional Whaler buyer, who usually a deep pockets buyer, at the Miami Boat Show in February 1991. I was there, and only 18 months after having bought my 25 Outrage, was absolutely shocked to see the new "white" boats they were pushing - the 21 and 23 Walkarounds, plus a terrible new 16SL twin console model (I think this style hull was meant to replace the Montauk or Newport, but it failed miserably).
Gone also were the 22 & 25 Revenges, so they wouldn't compete with the Walkarounds. None of these new designs, as we now know, showed any evolution of the traditional Whaler design and appearance, as all previous models had done, but were instead re-designed Black Watch boats, courtesy of the new design team, brought over from the defunct Black Watch boat company. Of these two new models, the 21 Walkaround proved to be the best, and never was given much of a chance because of its high manufacturing cost. I still think it is a far superior boat to any Conquest that has since been designed and built, and is a fine, high quality boat. Brunswick should bring it back.

But the Reebock marketing people, now with their own different design agenda, and relatively hostile to the older Dougherty designs, really did a great job of antagonizing much of the prior Whaler clientele, myself included. All I heard at that Miami show, and subsequently from the Dealer network, was how superior these new hulls were to old, obsolete, "hard riding" tan boats, mine included, and that they were "soon going to discontinue". The new white shapes, sans teak, would be the future, and they would take over. Well, they didn't, and buyers stayed away in droves. Just having plunked down a lot of money for a new Classic 25 Outrage, I really got tired of the new diatribe about how the 23 Walkaround would run rings around my 25 Outrage, and was a better boat. What total BS. The marketing concept of selling your new designs by running down the old proved to be a total failure, and by late 1993, Reebock, the gym shoe company, wanted out of this money losing proposition, mostly brought on by themselves.

During this same time, you could hardly find a classic 22 or 25 Outrage on a Dealer's lot, and never at a Boat Show. The Company was evidently pushing the white boats big time, even though, technically, the 22's and 25's could still be ordered, but with greatly jacked up pricing as a discouragement. That's why 91-93 22's and 25' are almost unheard of - very rare. Who wanted to buy a boat that the company was saying was obsolete and being discontinued? The funny thing, though, was that the 21 & 23 Walkarounds they were pushing were also soon to be discontinued at the same time! (all after 1993)

Regarding the smaller sport models, these also took a hit under Reebock. Remember the "Rage"? These jet drive wonders were to be the new future of small Whalers. This was where the marketing emphasis went, selling about 10,000 per year of these little gimmicks, and the classic 13's & 15's suffered. They were even peddled as the new Yacht Tender. They also were designing the new style Dauntless 13's and 15's at this time, based on a "new look" Rage type hull, both pretty much later performance failures, and let it be known that the classic 13-15's were out of date hard riding boats, soon to be replaced by the "superior" designs. Maybe the downturn in the yacht business & luxury tax hurt these models, but the company sure didn't do much to push them either. Instead they were organizing "Rage" rallys - remember those? If you don't believe me, look at the 92 - 94 Reebock Whaler catalogs. The old Classic stuff got no space at all compared to the new models. The advent of the Rigid Hull inflatable has also killed the market for the classic 13 tenders. So all of this is another reason why there are so few 13's vintage 91-94.

And we are wondering why the Company had such hard times during the early nineties? This is my take on the subject! I have wondered many times, whether, during the 1991-1996 period, the CPD actually kept the company in business with it's "old style" offerings!

bigz posted 11-08-2001 03:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for bigz    
All I can say Larry, (this is your old nemesis writing and my OPINIONS won't make Larry a happy camper) please stress again that your dissertation above is your opinion on the topic. A lot of what you say may be true (heard it many times before). Then some of the murkier stuff I believe is plain conjecture on your part plus some wishful thinking. ( If wishes were horses than beggars would ride ;) chuckle)

Since you are one individual with a known built in bias it is understandable you would project a negative when some might consider advancement from the 80's boats to the 90's a positive sign that Whaler was trying to move up into new market areas and attract, thankfully, new and different customers. As it is presently with their design offerings --- times they are a changing ---

As far as Reebock in my opinion (little conjecture here) don't believe they directly effected the boat designs! The early 90's was a major boat building transition period with PWC's and other trendy boats being introduced left and right --- I feel that it was Whalers internal management team which held the reins. Your statement about Reebock loosing money is probably correct. I say, if it wasn't for their strong financial ability to "lose" money Whaler would have been history, as their previous owner CML became and many boat builders of that time.

After some thought on Translation's statement ---

I have come to the conclusion that it was the small boats which frankly supported the company since day one --- as a percent of total sales the boats under 17 far out stripped the total sales of all others combined over 17 feet annually is my guess --- As the years progressed and the manufacturing techniques were fine tuned the under 17's became more and more profitable. Don't think they blind sided the traditional customer who for the most part were under 17' purchasers --- the true "classic" legends under 17 were kept in the line until Brunswick got a hold of them --- not talking the V-hulled boats they ain't "classic" just part of the on going evolution of design which continues today --- Fisher influenced boats are the only true original innovative "classics" ------- again just my humble belief ---

Tom
some PS's

On the WA's remember Mr. D had two in the line up back in the 80's he just didn't know how to design them so they wouldn't look like after thoughts --- might add that competitors WA's were just starting to make a presence back then. Maybe Whaler felt they needed something that would incorporate the old Revenge into a craft which was appealing to both families and die hard fishermen --- that 80's Revenge design was becoming sort of "old hat" --- --- the basic raised helm cabin cruiser look abounded every where and had for many years past --- that is in my opinion what prompted the intro of the 21,23,25, and 27 WA's --- and for the really wooly bully fisher the 27 offshore in '92 or maybe even '91 was thrown in ---

Ha ha the Rage --- your comparison to the other classic small boats is way off the mark I think --- can't imagine it hurt their sales or detracted one bit (what sales there were during that period) --- the Rage was an attempt to match what was to become the small jet drives which are now produced by a number of companies --- a dryer alternative to PWCs. I doubt your sales figures are correct Larry on the Rage, then again I can't prove otherwise --- you do the math 10,000 a year! ---- Another chuckle is the inflatable, they didn't sell enough to make it worth importing them --- and I have a couple catalogs the only one featuring the Rage on the cover is the '92 with the two young gals having a ball --- inside didn't find anything out of the ordinary all boats had enough ad verbiage and photos ---


lhg posted 11-08-2001 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Tom - thanks for your comments, and I am not at all offended. It's always refreshing to read another point of view. It's what keeps this Forum active and the readers coming back. And I do want to emphasize that my comments are only MY opinion of what was happening, but is based on my actual experience, however, and from what I heard being said by the sales and marketing people.

The wide beam 25 and 27 Walkarounds, complete with the original Whaler Drive design, were designed by Dougherty, as part of his continuing evolution of the BW design concept. The very different 21 & 23 Walkarounds were designed by Peter VanLancker, who also re-designed the original 1990 desert tan 27 Walkaround cabin & transom for his 1991 year new boat Reebock introductions, the boat you now own. And a nice one at that!

I would agree that BW would logically keep trying to do better boats as they moved from the late 80's into the 90's. But, as history now shows, they failed with the new hull designs, for whatever reason, and lost a lot of money in the process. Why did they fail? Why did these new shapes dissappear so quickly from the lineup? They cut short the traditional design process of continuously evolving and improving new Whaler designs, and basically imported the Black Watch design philosophy under a Whaler logo instead. The boats that did the best for them were their interior shell re-designs of the original Dougherty hulls, like the 18 Outrage and 27 Walkarounds and Offshores. These boats are still popular.

Brunswick/Sea Ray also did the same thing again. They shelved the new VanLancker team designs, just as the Dougherty designs were shelved, and did their own style of boat, yet another form of a "better" Boston Whaler. So now we have Sea Whalers, getting more and more like Sea Rays every day. What else would you expect? They are only doing what they know how to do best, along lines that have worked for them. The gradual 30 year evolution of the BW hull ceased abruptly in 1991, and has yet to be revived. Not likely that it ever will, except for those that thankfully live on in the CPD.

And Whaler did not need a new clientele, the so called "new and different" buyer of the 90's. They had thousands of loyal buyers thoughout the 80's, more than willing to pay the high prices for quality boats. Why turn them off and chase them over to other manufacturers? The sole reason for the 1991's drastic design changes were a NEW design team. Designers always want to do their own thing, which they always think is better than the "other" guy's ideas. They just didn't understand that the 80's customers wouldn't automatically follow them and their radical new shapes. Hence, sales plummeted and profits disappeared, aggravated by a slow market for boats. A really bad management decision to radically change a proven commodity at such a time.

Regarding the 10,000 unit sales figure for the Rage, it came from a BW marketing Rep.
I also remember being surprised they could sell so many of those things. Whether he was exaggerating or not I do not know. Those were troubled years for the Company, and he may have been trying to put a good spin on things.

wtromb posted 11-16-2001 01:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for wtromb  Send Email to wtromb     
I have owned nothing but whalers since 1975. Sport 15, Bass Boat 17, Two outrage 18's (one had twin 50hp Yamahas, 20ft Outrage, 22ft Walk Through with Twin (infamous) Sea Drives (owned for 6 years), and my present boat a 1993 23ft Walkaround with twin 150 Yamahas. Without a doubt the 23 is far superior than the 22ft Revenge. I use the boat in some nasty weather on Lake Michigan. the 23 tracks better than the 22, rides better, planes under wave conditions the Revenge would not, steers easier, in my opinion simply a better boat.

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