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ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Trailering: Montauk -vs- Outrage
|Author||Topic: Trailering: Montauk -vs- Outrage|
posted 11-12-2001 08:06 PM ET (US)
I am considering purchasing my first whaler and would appreciate some advice. Having a tough time deciding between a good used montauk or a 18ft outrage. I plan to use it fishing off the coast of British Columbia and occasionally large lake use. Running distances of up to 60 miles and seas are often 1-2 ft chop and sometimes large swells. My first impression is the outrage, however, I have a jeep with a straight 6 and think it probably won't cut it for towing. My towing distances will be over 800 miles at least once/yr. Anyone owed both boats and have some feedback?
posted 11-12-2001 08:16 PM ET (US)
Ahoy, Jack. Yes, I have both and tow both with a MB ML320, 3.2liter V6, 215HP. I also make loooong trips. . . 1500 miles one way.
with the Montauk it's a breeze. With the OR18 it gets to be a bit of a chore, but not a problem.
Your 258ci (4+ liter) Jeep should do as well, or better, than the MB.
For the fishing you propose, I recommend the Classic Outrage 18.
Red sky at night. . .
posted 11-12-2001 10:49 PM ET (US)
What type of Jeep do you have? If you have a Wrangler I wouldn't recommend towing anything except a small boat. The Wrangler would pull fine, but the stopping and turning is a real problem. I have a Jeep Wrangler and I know nothing about a Cherokee and what it is capable of towing or handling. As far as the Whaler is concerned, I have a 23 Outrage and love it. I was going to sell her and get something smaller and decided to hold on to her and keep my eye out for a good used 17' for inland fishing and something I can take out myself. When I am out 30 to 50 miles and a summer storm sneaks up on me with 4 to 6 seas 5 sec apart, I thank God I am in my 23 Outrage with two motors. I read in one of the threads here that they called the 23 a bathtub, because of the high freeboard. I personally like the high sides when she is a rocking; I still have fear of getting knocked over on a rough wave while underway. When the seas are high I keep my kill switch strap on me. Type I PFD is the only thing to wear when your a long ways out and I am not afraid to put it on. Good luck on your purchase. You canít go wrong with a Whaler. There are two types of people in this world. 1.) People that have Whalers. 2.) People that wish they had a Whaler.
posted 11-13-2001 07:01 AM ET (US)
The Jeep Wrangler (4L) is rated to tow 1500#, the 4L Cherokee is rated for 5000# as is the Grand Cherokee with 4L and the Grand cherokee with V8 is rated for 6500#(4WD) and 6700# (2WD)... clark
posted 11-13-2001 08:59 AM ET (US)
I had a nice 1985 cj7 with a 4.2 liter 6cyl auto. That Jeep would climb a wall in 4 low. I had to get rid of it when I bought my 18' outrage. I guess I love whalers more than jeeps. Well anyway the jeep is really to light to tow such a heavy boat. I use to tow a 15' sport which is a little lighter than a montauk and it was ok on the highway. I figured I needed a larger car to tow the outrage so I got a v8 explorer. Remember it isn't only the engine size or traction capability of a car it is also its mass. The 18 would really push that cj-wrangler around. The cherokee would probably be ok!
Any case Good luck and I'm sure you will enjoy which ever model you purchase. I prefer the 18' outrage it is alot more boat.
posted 11-13-2001 09:39 AM ET (US)
We have had at least 7 Cherokee's since the mid 80's and several grand cherokees and grand wagoneers and have used a variety of these trucks to pull a variety of boats. We do not have any trouble pulling a montauk or smaller with our cherokees (when using 4.0L 4wd) but when I tried to pull our 20' outrage a few times, it was not at all fun for me. Cherokees are very light in the rear, as a pickup truck is, plus the rear leafs are normally not load carriers. Additionally the 20 seemed to steer me more than I steered it. However when we pulled the 20 with a dodge ram with towing package or dodge dakota, it was like we didn't even have a boat behind us.
posted 11-13-2001 10:37 AM ET (US)
Thank you for all the feedback. I have a 6 cyl Grand Cherokee. I have heard that an 18ft outrage might be too much for towing long distances, especially with lots of hills.
posted 11-13-2001 11:07 AM ET (US)
Your Grand Cherokee with a 4L 6 will be fine. I tow my Montauk with a 4L Wrangler with no problems at all, including long steep grades. My dad towed his 19.5'Bayliner with a 4L Cherokee for years, including trips from the midwest to the east coast. You will be fine towing the 18 Outrage, and I think it is a better boat for your desired use.
posted 11-13-2001 11:33 AM ET (US)
Does your advice change if the boat in question is not a classic 18 outrage, but rather a newer one? I see in the reference sction for 1988 18 Outrage that the weight is 1250 pounds plus motor and stuff. The 2000 brochure lists the dry hull weight at 2500 pounds. Double....even worse than the % gain as I have suffered in those 12 years!
I'd guess the heavier boat may need more power/mass pulling and breaking?
posted 11-13-2001 10:41 PM ET (US)
Thanks again for the info. I didn't realize there was such a weight difference for pre 1990 18ft outrages' versus post 1990 (1250 vs 2500 lbs). The boat I am looking at is a 1989, has a 1989 130 Yamaha, a 1995 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke, trailer, electronics listed for $18,200 Canadian.
posted 11-13-2001 11:57 PM ET (US)
Hello again, Jack. The boat you are considering sounds too expensive to me. I can't convert CD to USD except that I have an intuition that the exchange rate is about 80%.
With a 12-year-old engine the boat shouldn't be worth more than 12,000 or 13,000 USD, and then only if it is pristine otherwise. Full Mills canvas would make a difference if it is perfect.
Red sky at night. . .
posted 11-14-2001 12:18 AM ET (US)
I have a 93' Mitsubishi Eclipse 2.0L GSX AWD Turbo Hatchback with custom towing package and mild engine mods. I use it to tow my 35' Defiance(best Whaler ever made) and my 40' fountain with triple 500hp mercruisers. The car has 220hp with 235ft-lbs of torque so all I have to worry about is keepin the rear end of the Eclipse from tearing off. For some reason as I back down the ramp to pull up either of my boats everyone starts to laugh and stare. Then when I do haul her up everything turns silent and you look around and everyone's jaw is on the floor. How long did it take you to realize im full of it.lol-EasyE...in my dreams
posted 11-14-2001 01:13 AM ET (US)
Jack - from my catalogs, the 18 Outrage weighs 1250 however, BW has not made an 18 Outrage for many years and now the smallest one made is like a 22 or 23. My 1996 17 Outrage weighs 1700. I do not know where the previously mentioned 2500 lbs came from - but it seems a tad high.
I drag mine with a 2500 GMC with a 454 vortex - but you should be alright using one of the bigger jeeps. The straight six is a fine engine and will give you plently of low end torque.
I would feel much more comfortable in the Outrage than the Montauk, however several outfits around Rivers End are using the Montauks. I fished off Vancouver Island this year and the guide's 22 footer was alright, and I would have been alright in my 17 Outrage - my son wasn't all that sure. In the intermountain lakes of Idaho, the water can get sizeable when the afternoon storms roll in - and I am quite comfortable in the Outrage.
As an retired engineer with a lot of vehicle dynamics experience - you don't want the boat to control the vehicle - therefore, the heavier the vehicle and the longer the wheelbase - the better.
Take care and have fun.
Jerry / Idaho
posted 11-14-2001 01:46 AM ET (US)
All your comments are well appreciated and the information has helped lots. I will be looking more closely at the outrage now than the montauk, particularly the classic pre 1990 in good shape and reliable power. Great forum.
posted 11-14-2001 08:44 AM ET (US)
First, welcome Jerry from Idaho to the FORUM; your comments are appreciated.
As for trailering, there is nothing like more wheelbase and more cubic inches in your pulling vehicle to make the tow behave better.
As the size of the trailer load increases, at some point the interest of safe trailering dictates that you get a tow vehicle that is probably too big to be your everyday drive-to-work car.
Of course, that depends, too, on how comfortable you are driving a big truck to work everyday!
Although the Jeeps have strong figures for towing capacity, they are generally much shorter wheelbase than, say, a GMC Suburban.
The folks that really tow big loads and long distances are the travel trailer bunch. They seem especially interested in long wheelbase in the tractor.
posted 11-14-2001 08:46 AM ET (US)
Re: Canadian dollar conversion
The Canadian dollar is generally abou $0.66-US these days. An $18,000-CA Outrage is a nicely priced $12,000-US and sounds like a good deal to me.
posted 11-14-2001 10:50 AM ET (US)
I had a 98 Jeep Cherokee, which I liked very much except the stopping power. Even without a trailer this was the worst vehicle I have ever owned with regards to stopping. I would recommend you get trailer brakes for loads over 1500 lbs.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-14-2001 12:35 PM ET (US)
I think the boat you're looking at sounds like a good deal. jimh is correct, that boat is $12,000 US. As a point of reference, I sold my 1983 18-Outrage with 1990 Johnson 150, heavy duty galvanized Caulkins trailer, electronics and downriggers (no kicker) for $12,500 US in March of 2000 here in Seattle.
I have also owned two Montauks and I don't think there is much to decide in your case and where you are going to run the boat. You want the Outrage.
For the record: I towed the Montauk with an 1983 Toyota pickup with a 4 cylinder, 100hp engine (22R) and five speed manual transmission. No problem. I towed the Outrage initially with a 1990 Nissan Pathfinder, V-6, five speed manual, and later with my Toyota T100 pickup with a 3.0 liter, 150 hp V-6 and five speed manual. Not a problem, but approaching the limit of it's capabilities.
Seattle, and the rest of the Pacific Northwest is not exactly flat land, as you know. I dragged that boat as far as Tofino with the T100 and only had to gear down on those long uphill pulls.
I can't comment on a Jeep, but either way, get the Outrage and make the Jeep work or get a new tow vehicle. You won't regret it.
posted 11-14-2001 07:00 PM ET (US)
Somewhat similar story here on the "right" coast. Gave away my good condition 1987 18 Outrage, 150 Johnson, Cox Trailer, spray dodger and Mills' suntop for $13,000 in early May this year. I initially towed it short distances with a 1992 Pathfinder, 5 speed manual. I recall that the Pathfinder had a 3500 pound towing limit and so I assume the Outrage was probably close to the limit. Unfortunately, I think my towing the Outrage caused the exhaust manifolds to warp (apparently a common problem for that era Pathfinder). After those were replaced at significant cost, I traded up to a V8 Explorer (6500 lb tow rating) which had no problem pulling the Outrage.
Now I've got the 22 Revenge and as Jimh points out, although the Explorer's got the muscle I think its wheel base is a little small for the 22 Revenge.
I agree with Tom and would cast my vote for the Outrage. The Outrage is a lot more boat than the Montauk. The moderate deep vee and the 63 gallon built-in fuel tank are real pluses in my opinion. $12,000 for boat, motor and trailer all in good shape would be a good deal.
posted 11-14-2001 07:19 PM ET (US)
Something else to consider - a 17 foot Outrage with the classic Whaler hull. This boat was built from around 1990 to 1996 (I may be off a year). It's a little longer and wider than a Montauk. But unlike the Montauk it has a 34 gallon built in fuel tank, battery and oil tank compartments and a bait well.
It weighs 1020 pounds, 120 more than a Montauk, and it's rated for 120 HP engine, 20 more than a Montauk.
The Outrage 18 weighs 1250 pounds and is rated for a 150HP engine. In most cases, the 18's are rigged with a larger and heavier engine than the 17's are.
The Outrage 17 should cut your towing weight by around 300 pounds over the 18.
posted 11-14-2001 07:38 PM ET (US)
Jack: If the boat is at M&P (sounds like one of the 2 there) go for the one with the red dot! It is a CPD boat.
The 18 is much better than the Montauk in our type of offshore and inlet chop.
posted 11-14-2001 11:45 PM ET (US)
Wow what a great bunch of responses. You have helped me make up my mind. A 17 to 18 ft outrage is what I will look for. The vehicle towing info has been very helpful, particularly knowing that other sport utilities are able to manage 18 ft outrages. When I do replace my vehicle I will be taking towing capacity into consideration. Our dollar is in tough shape. When I did the math I came up with around $12000 US for $18500 Canadian.
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