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The new WHALERS....
|Author||Topic: The new WHALERS....|
posted 11-24-2001 04:12 AM ET (US)
I just took a look at Boston Whaler's latest line up. Is it just me or are they just plain ugly. It seems that every time they make a good design, like the 1994 - 1998 Outrage 21, they discontinue it and go on through great means to mess it up. Good designs don't need to be updated every two years, just ask Bertram and Porsche. A 46'6 Bertram, 911 Porsche, or a 17 Montauk look as good today as they did 20 years ago. I couldn't believe they discontinued the original 13. That's just plain dumb. Whaler should stop listening to marketing researchers and get in the water with some serious boat people.
Just my two cents...
posted 11-24-2001 12:01 PM ET (US)
The newest 21 Outrage doesn't look like the kind of boat I'd want. I got the impression from Whaler's website that the old style 21 will still be made. Hope so. The new Whalers are expensive, and heavy and don't seem to differentiate themselves from the marketplace. I can't imagine paying the high price of a new Montauk either.
posted 11-24-2001 03:14 PM ET (US)
Ok i'm not going to say I like or dislike
the 21 Outrage from either year.The new 210
is a smaller boat.
(shorter gunnels,smaller center console,
less weight,smaller gas tank.)
I would say the 210 is more of a entry
level outrage.I may be wrong but I think
the 210's base price is less than the
With no 17,18,19,Outrage I would think
the 210 would fit people wanting a offshore
V-bottom Outrage that was easy to trailer.
Only time will tell the fate of the newest
posted 11-24-2001 06:08 PM ET (US)
It is refreshing to hear that I am not the only individual offended by Whaler's attempt to main-stream a boat that was never intended to be ordinary and sit between a Mako and Grady. In my youth and now adulthood, it was not just status it was long term investment to own a Whaler. Now it is more like foolish money being thrown at foolish design and marketing. PS for all those listening, I for four years headed up Boston Whalers'Classic Line Nationally, in addition to providing marketing services for selected retailers. All this taking place during our last recession. I am selling my Cassic 22' Outrage Cuddy, for anyone listening....if you can get your hands on a Classic Whaler dressed in teak, do it, it will be a wise investment. Just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
posted 11-24-2001 08:45 PM ET (US)
I was going to ignore this thread. And noting that it is your first post, Welcome.
Well the Bertram and the Porshe only resemble outwardly what they were 20 years ago. They are not the same, in fact they are much better today, and by the way cost a heck of alot more today, could be the inflation about the same buying power now as then. I wonder why they have changed so much? How about newer techonolgy, engines, brakes, ergonomics, electronics, suspension systems, areodynamics, fuel delivery systems. Wonder why they changed all this stuff? My guess is to say in business. Hey the Avanti was ahead of it's time and is truely a classic, gee didn't Studabaker go out of business? Well it seems that things do change over time. So why not Whalers?
Personally I would not call anyone's boat ugly, no matter what the make. I just want you to understand that there are a few Newer Whaler owners here. I have never heard one to put down any classic hull, even though some of the classic owners have. And Quite frankly you said your .02 cents worth and that is enough. We all have been through this ugly opinon thing before and it is getting old for me at least.
At least you have good company in the Whalerguy.
Have a great Holiday, and happy Whale'n
posted 11-24-2001 09:01 PM ET (US)
Whalerguy - I'm listening...
No kidding - you headed up BW's Classic Line nationally for four years? During the last recession? I don't remember a Classic Line back then (you learn something new every day). What models did the Classic Line include? Did you work directly for BW? Must have been a big job!
posted 11-25-2001 09:35 AM ET (US)
I have only seen a magazine pix of the 210 Outrage, but by lowering the gunwales and making the console smaller it appears to me to be headed in the direction of the classic styling.
It is hard to compare the evolution of Boston Whaler boat hulls with automobiles. The hull is most comparable to just the body of the car.
Compare a 2002 Corvette to a 1963 Corvette and, yes, you will find fabulous improvements in the engine, the brakes, the suspension, the tires, the climate control, the radio, the electronics, etc. All the mechanicals are vastly improved.
But the Corvette body, its "hull", is still fiberglass, it is still a low slung two seater, and I would bet that a re-issue of the 1963 Corvette would sell like hotcakes.
The retro-styled Ford Thunderbird for 2002 has already generated so much demand that it is being sold $10,000 above sticker by brokers who have cars available, despite FoMoCo's best effort to stop the practice.
The nice thing about a boat like a classic Boston Whaler is that you can re-do all the mechanicals and electricals with 2002 components. You can have the latest outboard technology on the transom and the newest color SONAR or chart-plotting GPS on the console.
Essentially, you can build yourself a 2002 version of the 1963 Corvette.
The cool thing is older Whaler hulls are available that are still in really perfect, factory-new condition, or can be restored without too much work to perfect condition. And instead of costing $100,000 like a mint 1963 Corvette, they are fairly moderately priced.
posted 11-25-2001 10:49 AM ET (US)
What is say is so true. One of the major differences between the body of a 63 Vett and a 02 Vett and all the years between is that the body has evoloved. So you can tell the years apart on appearance. This is the same with Porshe. Put any two year models next to each other and you will notice the changes, which are more pronounced as the difference in years increases. Just as if you were sit a 55 T Bird next to a 02 T Bird.
So you might say that styling changes are part of the evolution of design. This has become more true today with a consideration for areodynamtics with computer aided designs.
If this is applied toward hulls the cad can be and is employed to make hulls more stable, plane faster, soother riding, fuel efficent. Add the six axis milling machines that produce symetric hull molds and the product is over all a pretty impressive piece of technology. The design has then evoloved into something that resembles, but is not the same as the orginal.
This does not mean that the new hull is better overall, just better is some aspects as with the classic hull is better in some aspects. This is why both hulls are still manufactured today, one in rec and some the CPD with the benefits of cad and the milling machines. Each has it's place in the boating world for each individual. And as I have said before they share a common ground in the name, quality and the manufacturing process.
The classics will always bring more nostaliga and admiration then the newer models, but they too were new at one time.
posted 11-25-2001 11:54 AM ET (US)
In a word-YUCK! Jack.
posted 11-25-2001 08:32 PM ET (US)
Speaking of Marketing:
Since I bought my 2001 Whaler I have gotten two fill in the dot surveys from Boston Whaler (also asking about the selling dealer) and one from Mercury.
Each time I mailed in the survey along with a hand written note. I always wrote that the survey was worthless because it didn't tell them anything. Then I stated my likes and dislikes. I give them credit for trying.
We live in a society of sheep.
I will never forget. I was at the airport a coulple of years back and a passenger said, "Look at that brand new VALU-JET".
What he should have said is, "Look at that tired 30 year old DC-9 with substandard maintenance, shiney new paint job, and clever logo (remember Critter)".
After the crash in the Florida Everglades the VALU-JET name became poison.They quickly merged with Air-Tran and repainted the planes.
posted 11-25-2001 09:22 PM ET (US)
Having worked for a Sea Ray/Boston Whaler dealer I can tell you that those surveys are important to the dealer.
They are a very important tool, along with personal visits that Brunswick uses to rate their dealers. The ratings if bad over a period of time can lead to loss of the lines. The ratings also goveren the warranty reinbursment rate paid to the dealer. A dealer on the low end may only be getting half of his shop rate, a Gold dealer at the top is getting his full shop rate.
posted 11-25-2001 11:35 PM ET (US)
First let me say that I didn't want to offend anyone or call anyone's boat ugly... Maybe some of my comments didn't come out the way I intended. I'm just a Whaler fan like everyone else in this forum. Through the years my grandfather, my father, and myself have owned Whalers. I've owned 3 Whalers so far, two 13's and a 18 outrage which I'm currently rebuilding. Living in the North coast of Puerto Rico, where 7 and 8 foot seas are the norm and not the exception, Whalers have gotten me home safe every time. I would like to move up some day to a bigger boat but I don't see one in the current line up for me. What I meant with my reference to Porsche and Bertram is that by refining a model through the years, instead of replacing it, it becomes better and better. Porsche stayed with the same chassis until the 993 release in 1993 and lately the 996 only a couple of years ago. And as for Betram, their latest 45 hull is a modified version of the 46'6. Both of these hold, even in their modern iterations, a close family resemblance to their predecessors. But in the Whalers I can't frankly see that.
Again, just my opinion...
Take care and Happy Holidays...
posted 11-26-2001 05:06 PM ET (US)
Zpeed7: Youíve hit on a tender topic.
Many of us have gone around in circles for years about the newer style boats. Iíve come to the conclusion that Ďitís a good thingí. The older styles are still available through CPD for the diehards - the newer ones have some great features and are very family friendly.
Most of us here have owned several whalers, and I believe that we would all agree that new or old - they are the best little boats on the water. Having said that, Iím currently looking for a larger boat (30+ feet) and have already excluded the Defiance or CPD offers.
No Company can be all things to all people. I think that many of us don't give the new management the credit they deserve. After all, they are selling more Whalers today than at any other time in Whalers history. I don't' think all the styles will be classics, but then again, previous owners and management made some mistakes (actually quite a few) before the SeaRay guys took over.
posted 11-28-2001 08:47 AM ET (US)
To be honest, I can't say I like the new Whalers the way I like the old ones. Growing up in Marshfield, Ma, next to Rockland, the old Whalers from the 70s and 80s and pre Brunswicks had the real soul. Mr. Dougherty used to keep a 21 Outrage with twin Johnson 75 Stinger outboards at South River marina where I was growing up, and to me it was larger than life. I think the Brunswick folks have really ruined the classic New England lines of the Boston Whaler. This Euro-styling is WAY overdone, and people in Florida just eat it up. Frankly, I want my boat to look like a boat,and not a Nike running shoe. But dealers are convincing people that "this is the style", well, maybe for Sea Ray or Bayliner, but not to this old Yankee. I guees I'll just stick with my Yankee Voyager thank you.
posted 11-28-2001 09:53 AM ET (US)
I have a 1972 13' sport and a 2000 Montauk. Both are good boats and serve thier purpose well. The differnce between the 2 is that the 2000 doesn't have the same appeal to me as the 1972. The feeling is differen't. When I take the 13' out I get the "Hey man thats a cool boat", and feel proud of the work I put into the boat knowing I have a Classic. With the 2000 I feel like I have a new boat that runs good (new motor) but I've lost that "loving feeling" already. I think the Montauk along with the other new Whalers need to have some teak options or something differen't to keep them unique. The real unique boats that are still around are mostly made of wood, mahogany and teak. The real classics are the Chineese junks made of teak more than 2000 years ago that are still used today. Do you think the old Whalers will be around that long? Regards, Jay P.S. Yes the doctor changed my medicine yesterday.
posted 11-28-2001 12:09 PM ET (US)
You can look at the glass half empty or half full. The lack of classic boats will only make our used ones worth more money. And in defense of Bruswick: They probably had to make changes/cheapen construction to stay competive or they would have to drop the line all together. Look at that other forum sometimes, thehulltruth. Some of those guys think we are fools for buying whalers (on the other hand, some of them don't seem to care about level flotation as long as the bow stays above water). The point is people today care more about price than quality and whaler had to make changes to survive.
Oh and as far as new Bertrams being better, , well some of the surveyors say the older ones are much better because they used thicker glass and were also less prone to blister. My buddy had a '71 28' and that was one well built boat and still looked new after almost 30 years...
posted 11-28-2001 03:07 PM ET (US)
WantaWhale,You're are so right. Boston Whalers always had the reputation, especially as the 70s wore on, of being over priced,but the quality was there. It certainly was the old addage: "you get what you pay for". Even so, that didn't stop the buying public at the time from paying those prices. Whalers, especially 13s, were everywhere! Unfortunately, the birth of the PWC industry, and the inflatable (Rhib) market taking off, its sad to say that Whalers do not dominate the waterfronts like they used to. Because of the recent times, people do care more about price than quality, and Whaler has suffered in the past for it. Witness Reebok"s luck with the company. I suppose it was only logical for Brunswick to "Take some of the cost" out of producing these boats. But its sad that they had to jump on the Euro bandwagon. I'm sure the new Sport 13 is a good riding boat, but it will never possess the charecter of the old 13. Like Chris Craft, they just don't make 'em like they used to.
posted 11-28-2001 03:45 PM ET (US)
I just came from the local Whaler dealer where I hurt myself looking at the new models. Thank goodness in the service yard there was a 22' Outrage Classic, which I stared at for some time before leaving to blot out the frightening images I had of the new ones. Caveat new Whaler buyer.
posted 11-28-2001 03:47 PM ET (US)
And your on the money about those rigid inflatables. I got my like new Supersport because the p.o. replaced it with an inflatable on his 55' mothership. Nothing wrong with it at all, just not the current style I was told. Now I just need to find another nice, honest, rich guy that's bored with his Montauk :)
posted 11-29-2001 07:56 AM ET (US)
I'm not sure why the new 13 has more weight, and I was a little surprized to hear that, especially when they offer this boat with a slow heavy 4-stroke! Speaking of which, isn't it funny how 4-stroke dealers are touting the smoothness, cleanliness and fule economy, but say NOTHING about performance?
Thats because as nice as those traits are, the 4 strokes are feebly slow compared to the 2-strokes. Maybe I'm just an old dog who can't learn new tricks. But I will never give up my 2-stroke Johnson 25, I'll just rebuild it when it needs it!
posted 11-29-2001 08:09 AM ET (US)
Ironic timing--on SPEEDVISION cable channel last night there was a boat test of the new Whaler 13. It was the first time I had seen the boat in the water and underway.
The hull form looks quite a bit like the classic hull when it is underway. It seemed to look more Whaler-like in the water and bouncing across the waves than it does on the trailer or in the showroom.
posted 11-29-2001 07:17 PM ET (US)
I must admit to not realy caring for the new whalers either. I have an 86 15ft center console with wood back rest thwart seat.when I purchased that boat I was surprised that whalers weren't blue on the inside anymore like the whalers I grew up with.So as a curmudgeon I distrust anything that doesn't look like it comes from 1965..
posted 11-29-2001 07:40 PM ET (US)
As a curmudgeon, you're in good company around here, grogden...in fact, in the occasional fit of self-esteem, I sometimes even elevate myself to that status-
posted 11-29-2001 10:22 PM ET (US)
I agree with JIMH, after watching the new 13 on Speedvision it looks a little better running on the water than on the showroom floor. I think the biggest problem BW has is that most die hard BW fans would rather buy a bigger used "classic", for less than half the price, when moving up, rather than buying up a new one...
BTW: Has anyone ever seen one of those 31 foot Boston Whalers? I've seen a lot of 27's but never a 31. Wonder how many were made...
posted 11-30-2001 12:53 PM ET (US)
To show you how misleading a small sample can be, I have seen more Whaler 34-Defiance models on the water than I have seen new 13-Sport models. ( 1 -vs- 0 )
posted 11-30-2001 04:25 PM ET (US)
I ocassionally see the 31's around, obviously on big water. I loved the hull design, but not the cabin shell design. They seemed to sit bow heavy in the water.
But the best looking 31's I have seen came from the CPD. They made a 31 Challenger that was beautiful, with twin stern drive diesels.
The one 31 that I have ridden in was extremely noisy, with a lot of vibration from the twin diesels.
posted 11-30-2001 04:29 PM ET (US)
I have the new sport 13 w/40hp EFI mercury four stroke. It is a great little boat.
posted 11-30-2001 04:41 PM ET (US)
I know I gave an epistle above on liking the old Whalers vs. the new, but when I read jbtaz's post, it hit me that my son (next generation boat buyer) liked the new Sport better. His points were valid, gas and battery out of the way and more roam to move about. I also note that he is not around or interested in wood work or varnishing when I am at it. Regards, Jay
posted 11-30-2001 05:49 PM ET (US)
The new 13' sport is just fine for me. My father didn't spoil me with a "classic" whaler for my 14th birthday. I guess I'll just have to remain ignorant of the ride of the classic. I have so much free time and can't think of anything better to do than paint teak. How about work. Please allow me my own delusions and if you see me in boxers waiting for the morning paper just shoot me.
posted 12-01-2001 12:30 PM ET (US)
I had 13' 1988 and now own a 13' 2001. There's no question that the 2001 is a dryer ride, particularly when turning in chop. Maybe that's the result of the extra weight and/or weight redistribution. There's no question as to which boat I'd rather run here on the Great Lakes.
posted 12-02-2001 03:27 PM ET (US)
After carefully reading the BW history page here(thanks jimh!) I can say that now I understand why all the different changes and model shakeups. I must say that I do like the "Reebok" era boats. Nothing like a good deep vee for rough water, and Black Watch boats were very good, tough, offshore boats.
Also I'm sorry that Bayliner and BW are even mentioned together. At one time Bayliner boats were not even approved by the Coast Guard! I do hope everything ends ok for the company though. I can't help but wish that Mr. Dougherty would buy BW and maybe even merge it with Edgewater, even that would be more deserving than Sea Ray...
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