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sad sad thing
|Author||Topic: sad sad thing|
posted 12-08-2001 08:18 PM ET (US)
No this is not a rumor and I am not making this up....the 17 montauk will no longer be in production as we know it. The "replacement" will be unvailed at the maimi boat show 02'
Whaler has really done it now!
in shock and rehab
posted 12-08-2001 09:49 PM ET (US)
Just think of what that should do to the value of used ones. I would think that BW will replace it with something that will evoke the old style but with an updated hull, etc., maybe like the 13 Sport for 2000.
posted 12-08-2001 10:15 PM ET (US)
AAAUUUUGGGHHH!!!! It's the BIG ONE, Elzabeth. They've done it now! I'm comin', Honey!
Where's my nitro??
Red sky at night. . .
posted 12-09-2001 12:30 AM ET (US)
A moment of silence please.............
I expected no less from the people that make Bayliner boats.
BTW ---> Next year the company will change it's name to FLORIDA Whaler.
Just kidding but I wouldn't be surprised....
posted 12-09-2001 07:46 AM ET (US)
Although my Montauk is only 3 yrs old it just turned into an instant "Classic Whaler"... SMOKING.... $$$$$$$$$$......
posted 12-09-2001 07:50 AM ET (US)
Although, I haven`t liked the NEW Montauk(or New Whalers in general) for about 10 years, I was still proud to see the Classic `13 and the Classic `17 Montauk hanging around. It really goes to show what kind of !?#%heads Brunswick really has working on the Whaler line at the drawing board. Their brains must be made of Mush!!!!!! Regards-Jack.
posted 12-09-2001 09:54 AM ET (US)
Just look at the fuss made over the "retro" styled cars like the PT Cruiser, Thunderbird, VW ...etc. There sits Whaler with two living legends, the classic 13 and the Montauk and they are dropped from the line-up! Simply incredible! I hope I live long enough to see them brought back into the lineup as "retro" models... I feel especially sad at the report that the Montauk has been dropped as I have owned many of these beautiful workhorses and loved them all... wish I had held onto the last one,,, Maybe had it bronzed.. etc.. Beam me up! Happy Whalin'.. Clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
posted 12-09-2001 10:59 AM ET (US)
If the Montauk, and for that matter the 13 GLS, were making that much money for Boston Whaler, they wouldn't have been d/c'd. I sold them for a year, and both models were tough to sell against the newer stuff. Although I love the hull, and own one, I understand the rationale to eliminate them. Look for Whaler to replace the Montauk with something that is more marketable, even if it isn't as good a boat.
posted 12-09-2001 03:47 PM ET (US)
Having the flu is bad enough, but now with this news, I'm heading back to bed. It's kinda funny the minute I sell the 2000 this news comes out! So be it. Jay
posted 12-09-2001 04:49 PM ET (US)
Perhaps part of the problem trying to sell a Montauk these days is not anything wrong with the Montauk, but the existance of so many other boats at the same price range (not the same length) that offer specialized features for fishing or water sport.
For $20,000+ you can get some fairly fancy boats rigged up for a particular style of fishing, say bass or walleye. This has had to cut into the sales to fishermen of Montauks, a real general purpose boat if there ever was one.
And for the non-fishermen there's a zillion plush and cushioned boats in the same price range which have much more appeal to the wives and kids who want to go out and play on the water.
Another problem may be that there just are not enough customers out there with both the money and the smarts to understand that a boat like the Montauk has great functionality and utility--far beyond the bass boats and bowriders--and will last for 30 years or more if well-cared for. (Maybe last 30 years even if not well-cared for.)
And then perhaps the 2002 boat that replaces it will be as good looking, as well made, cost less, last longer, ride better, and be styled in the same traditional way. We'll have to wait--unless someone grabs a picture of one coming off the assembly line...(hint hint to you guys that live a block from the factory).
posted 12-10-2001 12:15 AM ET (US)
Perhaps there are too many reasonably priced, mint used ones. They were too good for their own good? Now they can bring it back as a special collectors version. This might be the end of the longest running model? It is sad to hear this news, assuming it is correct.
posted 12-10-2001 12:08 PM ET (US)
When they took a pass on even mentioning the 40th anniversary (2001) of this famous boat, you knew they were going to dump it. No other boat company, even if they had a 40 year old hull to boast about, would miss this opportunity.
Brunswick should do Boston Whaler a huge favor and disassociate it from Sea Ray before it's too late. The association is killing Whaler's reputation, right down to the slick Sea Ray salesmen you now have to buy them from. BW's have gone from being a world class boating innovator, with a totally unique hull design and appearance, combined with high priced yacht quality finish, all of which set them apart as THE small boat to own, down to just any one-of-ten look alike center console brands in gleaming white with the over-used and now trite, sloping transom design and little back seats.
Now that they have Hatteras, they have a much better home for Whaler. Here they have a chance to form a boat group of two famous high quality lines, known for fishing among other things. Sea Ray and all their "glitz" never fit the bill for Whaler, although it was the best Brunswick had at the time. Now they have something better. Let's see if Corporate Management in Lake Forest, IL is smart enough to recognize this great potential. Hatteras never went for the Euro transom, blob boat Express Cruiser look, and it has never fit Whaler either, as evidenced by the success of this website. These are both Classic lined boats and some of Hatteras's influence over BW could be very positive, design wise. Brunswick has already said, much to their credit, that they don't intend to mess up Hatteras by associating it with their other, less prestigious, boat lines (such as Sea Ray). They, and others before them, have unwittingly done this to Boston Whaler. Now there is a chance to bring Whaler back up. But they may need a new design team, or at least free them up from the influence of Sea Ray's "sexy" curves and shapes.
Hatteras and Whaler are a complimentary mix, in spite of their separate market niches.
posted 12-10-2001 03:48 PM ET (US)
I remember when I bought my 2001 Montauk the Whaler Rep said, "Someday that boat will be in the Smithsonian".
I also am sad to hear the news. I am from the school of thought, "If it's not broken, Don't fix it".
Reading the zillians of posts on the Montauk fuel tanks got me wondering.
posted 12-10-2001 07:04 PM ET (US)
It's interesting to see how Edgewater has become a very succesfull comapany selling a lot of boats,(at a premiun price!), using BW's original formula. Their boats evolving in a very natural, progressive kind of way without losing any of their tough offshore fishing character. You don't need glitz to sell a good boat. Just look at Edgewater and Contender. If Boston Whaler can't sell a good boat like the Montauk it's because of their own fault. What's next? No more unsinkable boats? If I had the money to buy a new boat today I would take the Edgewater.
After this news I really think Edgewater has become the Boston Whaler for the next generations...
posted 12-10-2001 07:58 PM ET (US)
I also respect Carolina Classic and Penn Yan boats for sticking to the old square transom, in youre face fishing boat with classic styling, just to name a couple of other companies with, if it aint broke don`t fix it attitude!! Jack.
posted 12-11-2001 12:08 AM ET (US)
I understand that Whaler could be making this decision because of market pressure but I fear they are probably doing this in their quest for the almighty $$. Only time will tell if they will maintain their world famous standards. If they drop quality, they will lose market share and that is a very hard thing to gain back...
"Quality. There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin
posted 12-11-2001 08:31 AM ET (US)
The Whaler mystique is alive and well, it just has less and less to do with the current Whaler boat company. As that gap gets wider, there will be less of a reason to buy a new Whaler versus some other boat, and less of a reason for Brunswick to keep the Whaler name and line. I expect that Brunswick tracks such things, and at some optimum point, they will sell Whaler. At that point, they will be selling the name, logo, and probably the CPD. Someone will have to build it up from there. I expect the progression will go something like Whaler, SeaRay/Whaler, Whaler a division of Searay, the Whaler line by SeaRay, and finally, Dauntless(or pick your favorite name) by Searay. At that point, Brunswick doesn't need the Whaler name or logo and can sell it to the highest bidder knowing Whaler would never be a big threat in their high volume mass market world. Maybe I am wrong. I hope so. Kelly
posted 12-11-2001 09:14 AM ET (US)
What is a Boston Whaler? In 1970 Dick Fisher wrote:
"Solid elegance and purposeful performance characterize Boston Whalers and result in their selection by people who are not deceived by sham and appearance."
posted 12-11-2001 09:29 AM ET (US)
jimh, I wish the folks at Brunswick and Whaler would read that every morning before they start work. Kelly
posted 12-11-2001 10:10 AM ET (US)
Maybe Boston Whaler will go the same route as Harley Davidson?
In the 1980's when AMF owned H.D.; they would drain the oil out of the new motorcycles so they wouldn't leak on the showroom floor. The quality had gotten that bad. Later the government bailed them out because they were the last remaining motorcycle manufacturer in the USA.
Today Harleys aren't about technology. It's more an attitude or lifestyle. People want the classic styling and the famous po-ta-to roar. They hold their value like nothing else. It defies logic.
posted 12-11-2001 11:01 AM ET (US)
Thank God,,"Old Whalers never die, they just loose thier shine",,,,and that can be replaced,,
posted 12-11-2001 11:46 AM ET (US)
Have you ever noticed that these Bowling alley companies ruin everything they buy?
First AMF as you mention and now Bruswick?
Hopefully Bruswick will do what AMF did and sell the company and then Whaler can go back to worrying about quality and not marketing.
posted 12-11-2001 02:10 PM ET (US)
Harley and Hatteras bought themselves out from AMF. It would be up to the workers and some "BIG" investors to do that.
posted 12-11-2001 02:38 PM ET (US)
I suspect that Brunswick will not replace the Montauk with a new line since the 160 Dauntless already fills that niche. In fact, I suspect the Montauk may be eroding Dauntless sales while adding the costs of maintaining an additional production line, thus leading to its own demise. I have nothing against the 160 Dauntless, but it is a very differnt boat from the Montauk. My guess is that Sea Ray dealers find it easier to sell the seating, storage and "style" of the Dauntless more easily than that of the Montauk, so the Montauk got the axe.
posted 12-11-2001 04:34 PM ET (US)
Since 1991, the various owners of Boston Whaler have been on a mission, for various, often unknown, reasons including "designer's ego", to systematically eliminate every hull that we would call "Classic Whalers". And all in the name of progress, and building a better and cheaper mousetrap, they hoped.
As each of these hulls was discontinued, the Whaler tradition of evolving and improving a boat hull was cut off at the knees. The "improvements" were radical, rather than evolutionary. Each new designer wanted to prove he could do it better, his way, and unrelated to the predecessor hull. In any product line, this is risky business. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Boston Whaler has it's unfair share of the latter. It has happened many times in the automotive business, with the Ford Taurus being a more recent example, losing first place in sales to Honda with that ugly, radical model they brought out a few years ago. Mercedes and BMW know better, and take Whaler's previous evolutionary design approach instead, resulting in newer, improved and better looking designs each time. This seems to work for them, and it would have continued to work for BW.
First it was the Classic Revenges in 1991, to not compete with the new Walkarounds.
Then, in 1994, a real bad year for the Classics, it was the V-Outrages, and the mahogany trimmed smaller Sport models, including the 15. Not by accident, as all the previously recognized and popular Whalers were dropped, the Company went into serious financial decline under Meridian/Mastercraft ski boats. I wonder why.
Next we lost the 11' and 27' hulls, and shortly thereafter, the Classic 13.
Now finally, the purge is complete, and the 17' hull will be gone. I think, coincidentally, both the 13' & 17' hulls lasted exactly 41 years. It would not be hard for a current boat designer to argue their time is up.
Lately, the lifspan of new, high tech and greatly improved Whalers is showing increasingly short mortality. I may miss a few, but let's look at this dismal picture:
16 SL - lasted about 3 years. This was the first try at replacing the Montauk hull.
Various Rages: Well, we all know about those
Dauntless 13: about 3 years. This was originally billed as the boat to replace the aging Classic 13, but failed.
Dauntless 15: about 3 years. Same regarding the Classic 15.
21 & 23 Walkarounds: These were the boats that replaced the "old" Revenges. Three years. The 21 was a very nice boat, but evidently was so expensive to build the company was losing their shirt on it. It was very high "Whaler" style quality even though it looked different. No Conquest yet built compares to it's quality and good looks.
The 21 & 24 Outrages. These lasted about 4 years, until Brunswick could re-design their own versions.
19/20 Outrages/Ventura/Dauntless: These lasted about 3 or 4 years also. Never very popular.
New 17 Outrage/Ventura/Dauntless: 3 or 4 years.
14 Dauntless: 2 years
New design 18 Outrage: 2 years
New design 21 Outrage: 3 years? Now replaced with the 210 Outrage.
21 Conquest: 3 or 4 years?
How long can the 34/350 Defiance last?
There's talk of a new 27 Outrage. Is this the replacement for the current 26 Outrage, which has only been around for about 3 years?
In the past the "original" BW had some unpopular models, but not hull designs. Instead, these were adaptations of an accepted hull, such as the 18' Outrage based GTX, etc. The only short lived hull that I can think of was the 31, discontinued by Reebock after problems surfaced.
I realize this may not be a popular, or completely accurate, discussion, but I think this perspective should at least be proposed on this thread.
One has to come to their own conclusions, which could be completely different.
posted 12-11-2001 04:51 PM ET (US)
""...many things have changed over the years, but...the things upon which Boston Whaler values are built--our people, our pride in our craftsmanship, our belief that a design should fill a need, not follow a trend--have not changed at all, and never will."
1988 Catalogue of Boston Whaler
posted 12-11-2001 05:19 PM ET (US)
"Montauk"-"A leave youre wife at home, get youre buddy, grab youre rods, don`t forget the case of beer, take a pounding on the water, catch some fish, enjoy every minute of it, go back to port, get lots of looks from people that love youre boat, get proud as hell, dock her, then go home and be proud to have fished in her kind of boat!!!!!" (Jack Graner-2001) OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted 12-11-2001 05:45 PM ET (US)
I think you hit the nail in the head with that post lhg. Also, of the "new" boats, I also think the 21's were the best ones, they were very tough offshore boats.
All this craziness with the new models reminds me of the 2/4/6 lifecycle of Japanese cars. A mild facelift every 2 years, a mayor facelift every 4 years, and a complete redesign every 6 years. If you buy a new car you don't even have enough time to get to like it. But the time you do, there's a new design out there...
posted 12-11-2001 05:59 PM ET (US)
To igh: I am a great whaler fan and owner-but if you knew boats as you boast, you would also know that SeaRay innovated the new modern hulls and incorporated brackets. Whaler and SeaRay came together so the SeaRay hulls design could be used. The waannabes that speak of are proline, hydrasplit and the like. My 22 Outrage is the finest, most versatile fishing and riding boat for it's size that exists. My previous 23 Laguna was faster and more stable, but you needed a dually to trailer it. It is a true shame the sponsons and 'catfish mouth Whalers are going away. Unfortunately my better half has me selling the Whaler so she can have me buy a 26 SeaRay wac. g
posted 12-11-2001 06:14 PM ET (US)
"Whaler and SeaRay came together so the SeaRay hulls design could be used."
And that's a good thing???!!!!
I've personally seen stress cracks on 1 year old SeaRay hulls. In 8+ foot seas I'll take my 18 Outrage over any SeaRay, any time. I'll feel much safer...
posted 12-11-2001 06:23 PM ET (US)
Had a nice chat with the sales manager at our local SeaRay/Whaler dealership today. He had not heard anything about dropping the Montauk. He did say that he wouldn't be surprised as it's not a barn burner when it comes to sales but want's to have a few in stock if they do pull the plug on it. He said that there was not even a rumor about dropping it at the recent dealer meeting.
Guess it's wait and see.
posted 12-11-2001 06:26 PM ET (US)
No nonsense lines,
A compliant way,
But she could get rough as hell.
She’s gone now.
And men will say,
Have I got a tale to tell.
It was bad,
Really bad that day,
We crested the top of a swell.
Took to air,
That Montauk flew,
Must’a been ten feet we fell.
We made it in,
No worse for wear,
Yea, she could get rough as hell.
posted 12-11-2001 06:59 PM ET (US)
I'm not sure what to make of this but the 23 Conquest isn't in the published 2002 catalog but it is on the web site. However, they refer to it as the 23 Conquest not the 230 Conquest. So my guess is that if the axe hasn't fallen on the 23 Conquest, it will.
posted 12-11-2001 08:36 PM ET (US)
Peter, I think you're right. It should be added to the list of another short-lived Whaler. I have noticed that if it's not in the printed catalog, it's discontinued. Sometimes they leave older models up on the web so the Dealers can get rid of remaining inventory.
Glenn, I'm sorry that you think I am boasting about knowing boats in general. I have really only been a student of Boston Whaler models. But along the lines of what you are saying about the new Whaler Sea Ray hulls, I too have heard similar coments from a Sea Ray Dealer, who indicated that now that Sea Ray owned Whaler, we would be seeing some better boats. Sea Ray has a huge, and loyal customer base, and almost everyone of them will tell you Sea Ray makes a better boat than Whaler, and has for 40 years. I guess the sales volume proves it. That's why Sea Ray owns Whaler rather than vice-versa.
posted 12-11-2001 08:48 PM ET (US)
If you can get this link to work, read the reviews about SeaRay boats and their "quality" and then compare it to the other reviews about other boats in the site. This is actually a great site,(when it works). It's not a silly magazine, but a real boat surveyor who does this kinda of work for a living and then posts his reviews on the site. If you read carefully, you'll learn a lot, I sure did!!!
posted 12-11-2001 09:29 PM ET (US)
A couple of years ago when I took the tour
at whaler there was one montauk coming off
the line that day.I was told the dauntless
line sold alot more boats and I could see by his reaction it was just a matter of time
before the montauk followed the classic 13.
Like I said before I think alot of first
posted 12-11-2001 09:33 PM ET (US)
Whalernut...as usual, you captured the spirit of the Montauk Good job! I concur.
I was thinking about selling mine and looking for a Revenge. I think that I wil just stick with it for a bit and see what happens.
posted 12-11-2001 10:09 PM ET (US)
I am probably going to get into deep pucky for this…
But in the spirit of free idea exchange, I’m gonna’ put this on the table..
The Montauk has been described as one of the best all around boats there is. But...
Here is the scenerio..After I bought my Dauntless 14, I told one of my fishing buddy, who was going out with me fishing on Puget Sound, “let’s take my boat, I just got a Boston Whaler”. He said “no thanks”. I was very surprised and asked him why? He said “I have been in one and “no thanks”.
It turned out he had been in Alaska on a fishing trip and the resort used Montauks and he got “pounded to death” in them. To him, Boston Whaler = Montauk = pounding ride.
I have “heard” a lot of other people say the Montauk is not that good a riding boat in rougher water.
I am not “anti Montauk”. My question/comment is just this:
If Whaler came out with a “New Montauk” with the exact same desk layout, but with a softer riding, deeper V hull, would it be that bad? That’s all, that is my question.
posted 12-11-2001 10:39 PM ET (US)
I might as well get in deep pucky too.
I think it is more important for the Whaler name to be carried forward on boats that consumers want than retaining a hull design that doesn't sell. Brunswick/Sea Ray is smart enough that if a product is providing a profit they are not going to dump it. If the production costs exceed the profit, sure they will dump it. You can't produce non profitable products and keep the doors open. Times change and consumers desires change and Whaler is responding to the change in the market.
posted 12-11-2001 10:54 PM ET (US)
A pounding ride, in any boat, is a question of how fast you are going relative to the conditions, and pretty much fiction. Any boat will ride hard. A capable pilot runs his boat, particularly with guests along, so they won't get "pounded" and injured. What's wrong with simply using good judgement and slowing down a bit. Then a Montauk won't ride hard.
When my son is driving my 25 Outrage, a pretty good running boat by most standards, he pounds the daylights out us until I finally start yelling at him. Why? His idea of running a boat is push the speed to the limit, as fast as it will go in a given condition. But he's a kid. I take over, and everyone begins to enjoy the ride again. It's all a matter of exercising good judgement and finding the right speed for the conditions.
I once had a test ride in a new 26 Outrage, with the new "soft riding" hull. The salesmen was trying to convince me how much softer riding it was than my 25 Outrage. Takes me out and pounds the daylights out of me, thinking I'd be impressed. I'm hanging on for dear life. I said "this boat rides really hard". He says "you can't do this in your 25". I said, "who wants to!"
I kept my hard earned dollars in the bank.
posted 12-11-2001 11:03 PM ET (US)
lhg, I understand your comments, but..
If Whaler came out with a “New Montauk” with the exact same desk layout, but with a softer riding, deeper V hull, would it be that bad? That’s all, that is my question.
posted 12-11-2001 11:03 PM ET (US)
posted 12-11-2001 11:25 PM ET (US)
Responding to Dick: As a Montauk owner you surely must know it's not an obsolete model "T", in spite of it's age. There are very few 16'7" fiberglass hulls even made today, and the Whaler hull is the best of them. It's totally unique in it's class. In some ways it's superior in performance and looks to it's "high tech" competitor, the 16 Dauntless, in other ways it's not. Other competing 16' glass hulls that come to mind are those noisy Yamaha and Bombardier futurama jet boats, real abominations if you ask me.
For a change, it would be really nice to see BW evolve this hull into a newer form, but keeping it's character and design origins alive, the way they did when the 16 was converted to the 17. The newer 13 Sport was an effort in this direction also. Maybe they will learn from that experience, and succeed with a new Montauk. We'd all like to see that.
There aren't any of us here who think changes can't be good. But there are those who question whether Brunswick's type of changes are good, converting the boats, as someone else here recently has said, into SeaRay hulls. With hull life expectancies running only 3 or 4 years, the market is telling them something, and none of us have anything to do with that issue. Nor can a company keep its doors open with such frequent design and tooling expenses from non-profitable, short lived, designs eating up profits.
posted 12-11-2001 11:26 PM ET (US)
However, on a "displacement" hull boat (as opposed to a planing hull) doesn't the movement of the throttle basically just increase or decrease the speed of the boat, not the "pounding or not pounding"?
If Whaler came out with a “New Montauk” with the exact same desk layout, but with a softer riding, deeper V hull, would it be that bad? That’s all, that is my question.
posted 12-12-2001 12:11 AM ET (US)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong... But didn't Boston Whaler produce a deep vee 17 Outrage Classic in the late 80's early 90's ? I think I've seen a few, tan with red canvas Outrage 17's...
|Tom W Clark||
posted 12-12-2001 01:00 AM ET (US)
First of all, I do have a nostalgic pain about the demise of the Montauk. I'm not surprised to here about it, mind you, but it does seem kind of sad. But then I start thinking about what it really means to me, and the answer is: not much.
I have owned a few Boston Whalers (two Montauks among them) some bought new, the others, used. I will certainly own more Boston Whalers in the future. But the fact of the matter is every Whaler I will ever own in the future has already been manufactured, most likely more than ten years ago.
A common criticism of the "the Brunswick Whalers suck!" mentality is that the models have had to change to keep up with the times. Further evidence is provided by pointing out how well the new Whalers have been selling and that Brunswick has to earn money. These arguments are valid. Brunswick is in the business of making money, not boats, and I don't fault them for that. Heck, if I were a share holder I would demand it. But I'm not, so I could really care less if Brunswick or Whaler were to go tango uniform.
Now I don't think anybody here (except perhaps whalernut) would argue that it's reasonable to expect Whaler to have frozen its product line in the year 1989, but the way the Whaler line has evolved over the last ten years leaves much to be desired, in my opinion. They certainly have let the Boston Whaler sink from being an odd ball, first class water craft to being a rather well built but ordinary piece of merchandise.
Is this good business? Who knows. Does it produce boats that interest me? Hell no. Boston Whaler is a name and a company. Both can be and have been sold from one corporation to another. But what is a business without its principals? Inventory, tooling and intellectual property like designs and the brand name? Well, Whaler has all but done away with the designs of the Classic Whalers and the principals I have long admired, like Dick Fisher, Bob Dougherty, Arthur Loveless are long gone. So what's left? The brand name? Who cares? Does a decal on the side of a boat make it better? Does an alligator sewn of the front of a sports shirt make it better? Does a swoosh on a sneaker make it better? There has to be some substance to make it better, a better idea, a more clever solution not just clever marketing.
Why should we to gauge the success of a new boat by the softness of its ride? This is an overly simplistic approach. I don't enjoy being pounded in rough water any more than anyone else (OK, that's not exactly true, but...) but that is not the sole criteria I use to decide what is good or bad in a boat. Contrary to lhg's reasoning, a boat’s ride is related to more than just boat speed. Hull design has a lot to do with it as well. Ceteris paribus, the average Whaler will ride harder than the average boat.
The original whalers, the 13' and the 16' will definitely pound you in any kind of chop and get you wet as well. They have a well deserved reputation as hard riding, uncomfortable little craft. They are not for everyone, but why should they be? It was precisely this idea of creating something unorthodox and special, nay, superior that propelled Fisher’s Boston Whaler to success in the first place. His boat didn’t become popular because it carried a well respected brand name on the side of it. It became popular and earned respect for its name because it performed well.
If Whaler came out with a “New Montauk” with the exact same deck layout, but with a softer riding, deeper V hull, would it be that bad? No, but it ain’t gonna’ happen. The very first lesson I received in college on day one was: “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”. The class was Economics 200 and the professor’s point was that everything has a cost. If you choose one thing it is only at the expense of forgoing another. This is true of boat design as well. Make a smoother riding Whaler and you will give up some other desirable attributes.
In the case of the Montauk this was done in 1977 when they came out with the new hull. I think they did a pretty good job of it. It is somewhat smoother riding and a lot less wet. But it is perhaps a bit less stable, not quite as fast, ect. Maybe Brunswick will simply redesign the Montauk with a new hull that has a deeper V but it will be less stable still, it will weight a lot more, probably have a third liner, look like a lot of other boats already being made and cost more. They will probably give it some stupid new name (or number) and then fail to manufacturer it after a few years after realizing it’s not so great after all.
posted 12-12-2001 06:10 AM ET (US)
I have a montauk and love it, but I think they overpriced theirself out of the market on this boat. Think about it $22,000.00 for a 16 1/2 foot boat. Other manufacturers like Carolina sciff and Cape horn advertising the same unsinkability, while it may not have the same quality as a whaler, have taken over this share of the market for a hell of a lot less money.
posted 12-12-2001 07:45 AM ET (US)
I don't think making a Montauk with a deeper v is a good idea. Around here, I like the shallow water capability of my boat. A deeper v would compromise this feature. I'm with scottfarm on the pricing. I mean, this design is 30 years old, why do they have to have so much money for it? If they would price it right they would sell like hotcakes. I can't be the cost of materials. There isn't that much more material in a Montauk than in a new 13 sport but the price is twice as much. The design costs are nothing now.
posted 12-12-2001 09:16 AM ET (US)
Tom, I like your post. Very good points.
I have gone the whole range of opinions on this issue reading this thread. I think I have settled on this.
I wish Brusnwick Whaler would discontinue all classic models and the associated names. I am tired of the current company pretending to be as good(they aren't) and have the same values(they don't) as the old company. Let the classics retain some dignity. I would hate to see the Montauk name diminished by several iterations of poorly designied follow-ups. If the new Brunswick Whaler company is for real and the designs are what people want, let them earn their own reputation and quit trading on the classic reputation.
I do wish they would still make the classic hulls available from CPD on a special order basis. I don't see how that could hurt them as long as CPD is in busniess.
posted 12-12-2001 09:18 AM ET (US)
Whaler 2001 Catalogue had this ironic headline talking about Whalers versus other boats:
"The Difference Between Being a Legend and Being History"
posted 12-12-2001 09:30 AM ET (US)
jimh,.. that's a good one. now they are both at the same time!.....lm
posted 12-12-2001 10:50 AM ET (US)
My dealer's rep sez, same name, new hull, probably built-in fuel tank and live well under pilot seat. Of course all of this is subject to change and I'll reserve any judgement until I actually see the final product.
posted 12-12-2001 12:56 PM ET (US)
I took my Montauk up to the California Delta for a flyfishing weekend with a group of people, most of whom I didn't know (I was invited by a friend to join him at a club event). I was amazed at how many folks complemented me on my boat, and most were surprized to learn that it was a '79. Although there were several "fishing specific" boats there, we were the only ones that were able to flyfish 3 rods at the same time. Granted, we did have to coordinate on our casts, but nobody had to take a turn out of the action. The only exception was of course, the other '79 Montauk that participated in the "striper bash". The point is this: There are few boats that match the versatility of the Montauk, regardless of when they were designed. The low freeboard, clean layout, shallow draft and exceptional stability are unmatched in a boat this size.
Regarding the rough ride of the Montauk, I have yet to find another 16'7" boat that provides a softer, drier ride. Larry and Tom are right on about matching speed to conditions. The ride on the Montauk is very much a function of it's rather short overall length, however in rougher conditions, most other 17 footers will stay home. When the wind and seas are up in the Pacific north of Santa Cruz, most of the (non-whaler) boats still out fishing are at least 3 feet longer than mine.
posted 12-12-2001 02:00 PM ET (US)
"The Difference Between Being a Legend and Being History"
Advertising speak, meaningless!
History and Legend can't be separated.
A Legend by definition is a story associated with some period of history, might add usually untrue.
History of course is the accounting of facts from the past as a narrative of events in the order in which they happened with their causes and effects.
We can conclude by this advertising statement that Boston Whalers represent a story from the past, with a distinct possibility it isn't true.
Do you think this is what the advertising folks wanted to relay with this message?
posted 12-12-2001 02:16 PM ET (US)
I do think there is a real danger in changing the Montauk hull significantly. There are some pretty amazing stories about the Montauk's seaworthiness out there. If the new hull does not maintain those characteristics, and becomes more of a bay boat or something less suited to open water, an uninformed boater may not realize that their new Montauk has very different capabilities. Of course I am sure that the dealer would carefully inform them of the differences. I know it is the owner's responsibility to know the capabilities of their boat. Kelly
posted 12-12-2001 03:01 PM ET (US)
The Montauk was from the go get designed as a near shore bay boat. No one was under any illusion that this "17" tri-hull could be comfortable handling anything more than a couple of feet in chop. Offshore if used had to pick your days carefully.
That said, because of the "unsinkable" characteristics of the boat folks have used them for purposes unintended. That's the owners choice.
Whaler has stated the main reason for the shift to modified deep V hulls in the late 70's was to provide a boat that would better handle big water and offshore condition than the original tri-hulls (DA DA the demise of the 19 and 21 slab sides)--- which was a marked departure from the Fisher conceived hull designs -- leaving the "little" guys for the calmer environs and play toys for the kids (plus a great profit center for the company -- make no mistake about that).
On this unconfirmed demise of the Montauk, as DGP states just have to wait and see. If the designers, as was related before on the 13, got together with old time employees to come up with a new hull, just maybe they will come out with something as successful as the new 13 --- will know next year sometime.
posted 12-12-2001 03:50 PM ET (US)
Bigz, I seem to recall Whaler brochures that depicted the Montauk as a boat that could work in shore or off shore. I seem to recall a picture in one of the old brochures that had a fish in the back of the boat that I took to be a large tuna if my memory serves. The 2001 brochure says about the Montauk "Fish offshore." I know it is only a 17' boat, but I think they have always depicted it as a seaworthy off shore capable boat. Kelly
posted 12-12-2001 03:54 PM ET (US)
My 2002 brochure shows the clasic hull.
posted 12-12-2001 04:01 PM ET (US)
Why would they come out with a new 17 when they have the 16 and 18 Dauntless and 17 outrage? Makes no sense to have another 17 unless it was as unique as the Montauk.
PS the brochure with the tuna in the back also had a quote like "I take my Montauk offshore because that's where the bigboys go" or something. I'll look it up later.
posted 12-12-2001 05:26 PM ET (US)
If my 11' can go 5 miles or so offshore (Gulf), I know the 17' will with no problem. Just has to be good weather conditions, otherwise it will be a slowwww trip home.
posted 12-12-2001 05:52 PM ET (US)
The first line of info on the Montauk in the 2002 brochure is "Fish offshore".
I do love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything. Even if I bitch about the ride at times.
posted 12-12-2001 08:01 PM ET (US)
Bigshot, the smallest Outrage currently available is a 21 (either the new 210 or some leftover 21's). The Outrage 17 was discontinued in 1999 and the Outrage 18 that replaced it (although it was much bigger and heavier) was discontinued last year. Except for the Dauntless 16 & 18, and the dual-console Ventura 16 & 18, there is nothing between the 13 and the 21 once the Montauk is gone. That seems like a pretty big hole in their product line...I'm sure they will fill it with some new model.
posted 12-12-2001 08:13 PM ET (US)
It doesnt make much difference what they fill the line in with us common, retired folks, can't aford a new one any way,,,maybe 10 years from now i and buy a 2002 Whaler,,but I do own 3 boats now ,,13' Classic Whaler,,18' maxim, Polaris PWC, so I can't complain too loud,,,
posted 12-12-2001 09:34 PM ET (US)
Boy this is a popular thread! Let me jump in with some comments:
My mole in Edgewater told me today that as long as dealers order Montauks the factory will make them. The factory does not build boats on speculation; every boat is built as a result of a dealer order. It's the dealer who has to speculate on his product mix.
In that situation, however, with so many dealers now of the "SeaRay" persuasion, it may be that the MONTAUK has a reduced role in the product mix.
posted 12-12-2001 09:47 PM ET (US)
Volspar stabilizers ( a gyroscope and hydraulically operated wings that dampen roll) that saved the day for him.
so on my 13' Classic ,(running the engine full throttle) "gyroscope effet of fly wheel,,(Doe fin, on cavatitation plate) "wings",,,,,that will stop the bumpy ride,,,
posted 12-12-2001 10:22 PM ET (US)
Jimh, well said. Speculation of the Montauk's demise is only that until heard from the horse's mouth. And even so, I would expect it would still be available through the CPD as the Alert model. There are enough gov't agencies still using and purchasing that model to justify keeping the molds busy. I believe they still make a 15' model at the CPD (could be wrong about that). Also, not everything Brunswick does is wrong or aimed at Boston Whaler die hards...
posted 12-12-2001 10:30 PM ET (US)
jimh, One of my last trips to Savannah I stopped by the SeaRay dealer. I found it interesting. They carry SeaRay, Whaler, and Edgewater. I was kinda surprized. Also, they did not carry Yamaha except as pre-rigged on the Edgewater. Kelly
posted 12-13-2001 07:43 AM ET (US)
I thought that fish was a tarpon.
posted 12-13-2001 12:27 PM ET (US)
I'm looking at the picture, and it is a Bluefin Tuna. BW was distinctively advertizing at one time that a Montauk could out-fish and out distance a 40' Sportfisherman. This, of course, was an exaggeration, but the idea was that these boats regualrly are seen fishing offshore with the "big boys". And that's true, especially when equipped with the console mounted outriggers. I used to regularly take my Nauset, equipped with a kicker, out 15 miles in Lake Michigan for salmon fishing.
And caught several sailfish with it, once fishing by myself, offshore FL.
posted 12-13-2001 07:13 PM ET (US)
It is interesting to see all of the different comments about this topic. As a close friend of a Whaler dealer, I can tell you with confidence that the Montauk is on the block for a revamp. Members of this forum who criticize Brunswick should realize that if not for them, the entire Whaler line may very well be history. Brunswick has taken this company from a time that they had numerous problems and have returned them to the high level of quality that every Whaler owner expects. But this does not come without a price. I have helped with boat shows where I hear comments comparing other brands to Whaler and how other brands 17' boats offer more for the money. They fail to see Whaler's true value.
Let's look at the facts. The 17' Montauk lacks a self bailing deck, internal fuel tanks, and a wider beam found in many of today's boats, including the 16' Dauntless, and the price has gone up to near $25,000 with a trailer. The 16' Dauntless has substantially taken away sales from the Montauk offering these features for about the same money. It seems that there is only one option to revamping the boat, and that would be to eliminate it altogether. If Whaler management really were the boneheads that some members have made them out to be, they would have scrapped the boat completely. Instead, they have opted to keep the Montauk name alive.
As for nostalgia, in 1998 Whaler came out with an anniversary edition 13' Whaler. It had mahogany seats and a blue interior like the original. From what I understand, it didn't sell very well. It's no wonder that they didn't offer a 40th anniversary Montauk.
If Whaler owners who love the brand want Boston Whaler to continue and prosper, they should be praising the manufacturer for continuing with the "unibond" construction unique to Boston Whaler for over 40 years. Yes even Edgewater doesn't use the "unsinkable" Unibond process. Tell your friends about the quality and safety they should expect when they buy a Whaler and justify the higher price by showing them your "classic" Whaler. I don't see many other brands that have 30 and 40 year old boats still on the water.
Float On Friends!!
posted 12-13-2001 07:32 PM ET (US)
But, if the 17 Montauk is a much smaller and less well equipped boat when compared to a 16 Dauntless, (which it is) why does it cost the same (or more) with LESS HP on it? The Dauntless even has 600lbs more glass and foam in it. The Montauk also has no design cost to amortize.
There can only be two reasons:
1. The Company is intentionally pushing THEIR product over the design of the "Classic" management, and intentionally pricing the Montauk so it won't sell, while saying the Dauntless is much more popular. Previous owners of BW have used this same concept to push new models, and failed.
2. The Montauk is a higher quality product, and indeed does cost more to manufacture per pound. Don't we get what we pay for?
If the Montauk was proportionately priced based on it's smaller size, weight and features, harder ride, and less HP engine, the package should be about $4000 less. That would change the sales picture dramatically.
posted 12-13-2001 08:43 PM ET (US)
If it ain't broke don't fix it! The 17 is fine with me like it is and most others would agree. IHG is right; whaler has attentionally priced her out.
Don't think for a minute that the quality is the same. Its not. I have seen more faded modern whalers then classics, but I really don't need to go there. If one can't see the difference then I'm sorry. And as far the 40th 13 whaler....well who wants to buy one that comes prepackaged with a merc. If you’re a merc fan then great! But I don't want a boat manufacture telling me that I can't buy the boat with out it. Whaler has been known for it options, for they used to have a broucher decaded to it. Now they are prepackaged, cookie cutter, marketed for the masses, glorified PFDs with every corner cut.
posted 12-14-2001 12:11 AM ET (US)
I have to agree with LuvMyWhaler. I wonder why so many of the participants in this forum think the current BW management (and Brunswick) are the Blue Meanies, when all they are trying to do is make money in an intensely competetive and fickle market. Some of what they do may be short-sighted, but I expect there are plenty of data to support their changes. I'd hate to see the 17 hull go away, though.
posted 12-14-2001 06:45 AM ET (US)
When I purchased my Montauk (new in 2001) I was unaware of the classic vs new debate, as well as the ownership history and changes in the product line. I knew one thing. I wanted a whaler. I went to the BW website and it became perfectly clear there was only one boat that suited my needs-- the Montauk. Within two days I took one for a test run (yes, the dealer pounded the hell out of my wife and me-- leading to a 75 HP rather than 90 HP engine)and we bought the boat. No comparison shopping, other than checking out other BWs, and no effort expended to find one used.
My point is threefold. One, I am not unique. People exist who will buy a new Montauk, despite the fact that some think it is over-priced. Two, the Montauk fits a definite niche in the BW line. The Dauntless is a totally different boat (to me). Three, BW has done a dismal marketing job regarding the Montauk. The failure to embrace and exploit the Montauk's marketing potential could realistically lead to the demise of the Montauk (and makes me conclude that I purchased the right boat at the right time).
BW probably views Montauk (and other BW) owners as lost market potential. I know it is very unlikely that I will purchase another boat (OK my screensaver is Tom Clark's 18' Outrage dancing on the waves-- I can still dream!). Given the quality I purchased in my Montauk, I will hold onto it for as long as I need a boat. So why should BW listen to me or even care about my viewpoint? Because, based on my experience, I think there are many people out there will continue to purchase the Montauk (as is) if it is offered.
I believe the Montauk should not be redesigned or discontinued; rather, appropriate attention should be paid to its marketing.
posted 12-14-2001 07:15 AM ET (US)
What a hot topic!
First of all, boats are not sold like gold. The price is in no way related to the weight. In fact, the Montauk is more costly to build overall because they are not sold in the volume of other models. Everything is cheaper by the dozen. I hope that the new Montauk is a tribute to the classic, while incorporating a more modern manufacturing process that will offer us more and cost less.
Second, the 1998 13 Anniversary Edition was not packaged with a Mercury. It was sold as a blank boat and the dealer could have sold it with any brand of outboard. As a matter of fact, every Whaler in the made today can be bought blank and rigged with any brand of outboard. It would cost a little more (usually the cost of the rigging) but if you feel that strongly against Mercury, cough up a little more dough and get exactly what you want.
posted 12-14-2001 09:04 AM ET (US)
The new 13 sport is only availble with a merc. Only some dealers may have the option of buying unrigged boats 16 to 35.
posted 12-14-2001 09:37 AM ET (US)
I am compelled to comment further:
COST -vs- WEIGHT
SAVINGS DUE TO VOLUME
posted 12-14-2001 09:49 AM ET (US)
Water in my Dauntless will go into the bilge only if it gets into the CC. Otherwise, easily goes out the scuppers.
posted 12-14-2001 10:13 AM ET (US)
I agree completly with LuvMyWhaler. First, if it wasn't for Brunswick this company probably would of been left for dead. Second, it is a business and it needs to make money. If it has a model that doesn't sell and fit the product mix of todays boat buyers, then unfortunalty they have to kill it or change. Look what's happening to the Camaro/Firebird. Now I have no particular interest in these vehicles, but I am sure there is a core of loyalists that are upset about that too. It's a numbers game, and no one works for free...The new boats Whaler is producing now are good boats-well built-just like the old ones. (I've had both-and I really feel that way). This constant beating down of the newer product by the classic gang is too bad. If it wasn't for Brunswick, Mercury and all currently involved who knows if there'd be a Whaler today.
posted 12-14-2001 11:24 AM ET (US)
I don't disagree with the comments that Brunswick has probably helped Whaler financially. But it is at the cost of moving Whaler into the Brunswick business model instead of the old Whaler business model. Brunswick's approach appears to be to dominate market share for what ever products they produce. This is one approach and proves to be successful for some companies. It is not the only approach. Other companies try to make a good profit on the products they sell in their segment and simply adjust price to balance what they are able to supply with the demand for thier products. These companies know that quality, inovation, and excellent products are what allow them to achieve profit margins that make their business viable. At this point, I think Brunswick is trying to do what it can to increase market share for the Whaler line and Brunswick boats in general. That's fine. But in most cases, that means making boats that appeal to a larger segment of the boat buying population. This requires compromises. With all compromises, something is gained, and something is lost. I miss what is lost. A Montauk is not for everybody. But why should it be? Kelly
posted 12-14-2001 11:52 AM ET (US)
It is funny, once upon a time I requested a Whaler brochure over the internet. I recieved one by mail but ever since have recieved little marketing packets for searay through a local searay super dealer. I have never recieved marketing packets for Whaler. this shows you where thier emphasis is!
|Tom W Clark||
posted 12-14-2001 12:59 PM ET (US)
OK, some good points have been made here. But again, "This constant beating down of the newer product by the classic gang..." isn't really one of them. It seems to me this FORUM is an appropriate venue for those who feel the Classics to be superior. I am still amazed at the apparent insecurity of the owners of newer Whalers. Why is it they feel the need to be accepted by the Classic owners? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to have them here expressing their opinions but I wish they would focus on the superior aspects of their boats or the flaws of the Classics and not just resort to this "..well, the Brunswick Whalers may be lame but at least they still say Boston Whaler on the side." kind of argument.
"...if it wasn't for Brunswick this company probably would of been left for dead." Well, who cares? The Whaler I know and loved died a long time ago.
But to give Brunswick their due: the one thing apart from the Boston Whaler name they still have going for them is the Unibond process. No other boat builder has it and it is a great way to build a hull. No matter how lame a boat design Brunswick comes out with and no matter how poorly appointed it is, it is still one hell of a stout hull. It is this (and, of course the CPD division) that gives me a sliver of hope for Boston Whaler in the future.
Clearly Brunswick (and the other, post CML owners) has tried to promote their designs at the expense of the Classics. That's their prerogative but you still have to convince me that this is a smart business decision.
As to the Montauk itself, If it is not promoted, sales will suffer. The other thing it has going against it is the superior durability and longevity of its design. The very things that make it great make it a hard product to sell because really, who wants to buy a new Montauk for over $20k when you can buy a superior teak trimmed one for less than half of that. Yes, there are those like Dick and Keith Silliman who have done this and they have their reasons. I don't fault them for it. Some do like the absence of wood for its low maintenance and the fact that a new boat is, well, new.
I just think that the average guy who wants a Montauk is well aware they can get a nice used one and even repower it with all new goodies, bells and whistles for a lot less than visiting their local SeaRay dealer. Surely Brunswick is aware of this too and would like to convince us all that they have something new and better. We will see if in twenty years someone comes up with a web site called "BrunswickWhaler, a site devoted to obsessed and fanatical owners of Whalers from the year 2001".
Take a five gallon bucket and fill it half full. Pour it into your Montauk. Watch all this water drain to the sump and disappear, waiting for you to either pump it out with the bilge pump or, even more simply, pull the plug when the boat is on a semi-plane or plane or out of the water at the end of the day.
Take a glass of water. Pour it into your Dauntless 15. Watch that water slosh all over the place because it has nowhere to go, getting your feet and gear wet in the process. The self draining scuppers, you ask? Well they have to have plugs stuffed in them because they only work while the boat is in motion. Come to a stop and they leak seawater into the boat soaking your feet and gear like the glass of water above. (Tsuriki, you know this is true. I’m not trying to be mean, but it is the one really annoying thing about your boat.)
posted 12-14-2001 01:54 PM ET (US)
As to buying a new Montauk, if I hadn't been working for the dealer and able to buy at cost I would have bought used.
As far as quality is concerned the present day Montauk is as well built as any that has ever been produced.
Like you I am a woodworker and there is nothing more beautiful than a well finished wood project. But for me I just don't want the hassle of maintaining wood on a boat, been there and done that.
It's great that we all have our own ideas of what is best and have this forum to express them on, hopefully respecting the others ideas even though they may be out in left field.
One of these days I'll catch you for coffee.
posted 12-14-2001 02:08 PM ET (US)
It's a shame whaler didn't get in on that "around the world" trip, the 2 from Europe are on,,with a Mercury 50,4,cycle,,,does any one know where they are now ?,,,
posted 12-14-2001 03:54 PM ET (US)
Like the others, you have made some good points. I know you're not being mean, right? LOL
Regarding my Dauntless, the reason I use the scupper plugs is because I have a 304# 75hp Merc hanging off the back end....(maxhp). That's a lot of weight for a 14' boat.
I bought the boat used, 4 months old, and that is what was on it., If it had bought it brand new, I would have gone with a lighter 50hp. 50 would be enough for my use and I think the stern would ride high enough so plugs might not be necessary.
The ride of the Dauntless is very dry. I get very little water over the bow even in some rough chop running fast in Puget Sound. And..the ride is pretty darn smooth. Ok, maybe a glass full.
Like Dick, let's get together for coffee or fishing.
posted 12-14-2001 04:16 PM ET (US)
I've just read though all the comments since my "2 reasons" post above. I have some things to do here at the office now, but next chance I get I'll come back with some pretty good "dollars and cents" proof that Whaler is intentionally pricing the Montauk out of the market, and has been doing so in a big way for at least 4 years, since the Dauntless 16 came out. We already know they have not been giving it any adverising support. Please stand by.
posted 12-14-2001 04:20 PM ET (US)
Continuous Whaler is an encyclopaedia of information on both "classic" and contemporary Boston Whaler boats. There are five main sections: (introduction to the Continuous Whaler sub site of the Continuous Wave website)
All owners of Whalers are welcome here,unless Jimh informs us otherwise, I do believe.
Don't believe anyone has to defend themselves on whether they have a new or old boat. Then again when someone "attacks" someone or thing we hold dear, human nature usually seems to dictate a response.
A few response post which might fall into the class level of a dissertation (one would think they get paid by the word) appears to me that these individuals in essence are trying to convince themselves of their own position/s more to attack others! Certainly aren't contributing anything of value, other than they maybe be closer to convincing themselves for themselves.
By the way (if anyone caught it) JimH's tongue and cheek response above, stated the Montauk as long as dealers order it isn't going anywhere much less out the door. This I might add is a confirmed statement. Original post I think had something to do with this situation.
By the way SeaRay/Boston Whaler dealers don't account for more than 35% of their dealer base from what I understand. The way some of the talk is going one would think SeaRay dealers are the sole operations selling Whalers.
A few statements made indicate dealers bending towards SeaRay sales over Whaler as the norm caught my attention. I find it amusing that Whaler was running at full capacity until this little recession hit. Guess it must have been the other 65% selling all them new Whalers.
This illusion of 1000's up 1000's of used Whalers floating all around the market is just that an illusion. Very very hard to find top notch used Whaler, most need extensive work as proven by the small sampling of folks who have found this forum.
I would reckon less than 10% of the forum members can afford a new Whaler in the size class boat they would want. . Point is this so called "classic" element pertaining to the boat age and the boat age alone is more in the nature of a hobbyist (sp) mentality (just thought their is the elitist thing too). I contend all boats Whaler is currently building with in a similar class will perform as well as any of the older designs. You can nit pick all you want, this statement stands current boats are every bit as good as the older designs. In some cases better. A tribute to the management and workers at Boston Whaler today who have a sense of real pride.
One more point, since at present and near future the Montauk isn't being taken away, this idea that any modified or V hull Whaler is a classic from the 80's is hogwash. The "classic" Whaler design stopped dead when Fisher left the company! The V hull was introduced to replace the tri-hulls in boats over 17 feet in '77. The classic legacy ends today with the Montauk as it did in 1979 when the last of the Revenge and Outrage tri-hulls were dropped (the 13, 15 and 17 variations stayed with us for a while to keep the legacy of the original designs in tact). I am sure this contention is going to go over like a lead balloon-- :) The fact remains these V hulled Whalers were the start of a continued design process searching for better performance and sellable hulls against competition, this is still continuing today.
posted 12-14-2001 07:19 PM ET (US)
OK Here goes. I think I can show that the Montauk is intentionally overpriced relative to the Dauntless series it competes with. I will agree that the words "intentionally overpriced" could be as simple as good business practice, having a model that commands a much bigger price than it costs to make. It's called profit! But then why do that and call it a "poor" seller?? As many Dauntless 16 owners have insisted on this Forum, the Dauntless 16, for the same money, is a lot more boat in terms of size, HP and weight, and in "creature comforts". Why?
Let's compare two 17' hulled 2002 Whalers, a CPD Alert and a Recreational Montauk. We all agree, the hull is identical, except the Alert is an extra cost version, with more glass and resin, about 100 lbs worth. But for this purpose here, we'll consider them equal. Since both boats would use the same trailer, it won't be considered here, and is not an issue.
Just a few weeks ago, I was quoted $8000 out the door for a brand new Alert, in recreational white (+$800), no engine, no trailer. People here are saying a new Montauk, with 90HP Merc 2 stroke package, is running about $22,000.
17' Alert, package included:
1. Hull, white - more expensive than Montauk
Price $8000 white, $7200 grey.
7. Merc 90HP engine, control, gauges, rigged
So, the white Alert "package" would be $13,500. This is at least $8500 less than a Montauk with same engine package.
17' Montauk, package includes:
1. cheaper hull than Alert
A competitive price for this package would be
SO - do the console, RPS, bow rail and Igloo cost, or are worth $8500? Hardly. I am GENEROUSLY going to propose the Montauk is marked up about $5000 over what it should sell for!!!
At $17,000 or $18,000 a new Montauk would sell a lot easier, and outsell a Dauntless 16.
Comments? Did I make a math mistake here somewhere? (Other than pricing the current Montauk too low at $22K - someone here has said 25K)
posted 12-14-2001 07:32 PM ET (US)
Interesting! I once priced a Montauk console for installation into my Standard, and was quoted $1,800, without steering equipment or electrics. The RPS, as I recall, was another 1K. The Alert sounds like a bargain.
posted 12-14-2001 07:36 PM ET (US)
That's good pricing info, and confirms the $3500 I estimated, including bow rail and cooler seat. Thanks
The white Alert, incidentally, is a very cool looking boat, as long as you can live with the sit down seating. I would delete the starboard and make the mahogany seats and trim. Also would add bow rail.
I'll send a picture of this Alert to Jimh for the reference section.
posted 12-15-2001 04:55 PM ET (US)
A day later, ideas are still occuring. What's wrong with this picture: (assuming you are in the market for a new or excellent used 17' Whaler)
Idea #1. Go to your local Dealer and order a new Alert as indicated above, but substitute the factory bow rail for the Alert console and thwart seats. Net cost for this hull with rails, about $7600, in white. Now go to another Dealer, and order a replacement Montauk Console assembly, and Reversible Pilot seat. "DSCEW" has indicated this will cost about $2800. Also have him get you a set of Whaler cooler seat cleats for about $40. Pick up an Igloo cooler somewhere, and get a cushion from "Daves".
As long as you can install these components, and run a little wiring, you've got a BRAND NEW 2002 MONTAUK for $10,700., and with a heavy duty hull to boot. Throw on a new or used engine of your choice, using Bigshot as your buyer (!), and you've got a GREAT deal on a Montauk!! None of this 22-25K stuff.
Here are some more ideas, based on information that I have been told regarding the $800 charge by CPD for an inside and outside hull color other than CPD grey. Evidently the charge comes from having to clean the molds for a different color gelcoat application. Exact color is un-important.
Idea #2: Assemble your own 2002 Classic Nauset! This time, buy the "railed" Alert hull in 1970 white outside, and blue inside.
Idea #3: Assemble your own 2002 Classic Currituck/Sport 17. Same thing, get your Alert hull in either white/blue, or desert tan. Have someone build, or build your own, Currituck/Sport 17 classic mahogany interior (see Whalernut's boat). This should not cost anything over a total of $9000, and it's brand new! This boat would only be $600 more than the starboard interiored Alert.
I think we're talking some great 17' Whalers here!
Idea #4: A new Classic 18/22/25 Outrage! This time, order the above bare hull in current recreational white. (Sorry, I don't know what these cost). Then order the same replacement Montauk console and RPS for the $2800. Same for the igloo cooler seat. This will give you an exact "non teak" version of these 1980-1993 Classics. An SS bow rail would also have to be fabricated. The oportunities to set one of these up as you want it are endless. A Birdsall leaning post seat, as Kingfish has, would also be a nice substitution for the RPS. Don't forget the Mills canvas.
posted 12-15-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)
lhg, all great ideas, asuming the above prices are correct. I e-mailed Boston Whaler today regarding information and prices for the Guardian 22 and the Justice 21. As soon as I receive something I'll post it up here.
posted 12-16-2001 01:25 PM ET (US)
Great posts by all, although I do agree with the Classic crowd more often. I really agree with the "Who Cares if Boston Whaler Went Under, The Classics Are Gone Anyway". I agree, if Boston Whaler brand went under, I would think someone would purchase the Patents, and try to revive the Classics in a Niche market. I would hope anyway. If it would be gone forever so be it, these new ones are yucky looking anyway, and have no Classic Whaler feel or apeal to boot. I have said it before: "I wouldn`t trade my 1973 `16 Currituck to anyone for a New any model Whaler". Not that anyone would, but I still wouldn`t, not even for a wonderfully named 170 Montauk-What is that?!@#. Regards-Jack.
posted 12-16-2001 03:15 PM ET (US)
I have a '77 Montauk. It was always my "dream" boat. I love it. I will say that I wish there was some updating done to the hull. Stuff like: a little wider beam, more dry storage (perhaps in the rear that would hold a battery and live well, a larger anchor holder and a max. hp of 115.
Don't make it a dauntless but a modified and improved Montauk. It can be done.
posted 12-16-2001 03:18 PM ET (US)
I am interested in lhg's theory because I am a prospective purchaser of a classic whaler, new or used. I have looked seriously at a new Montauk. Have also looked at some used Montauks, an '87 15' Supersport, even a few 18'-22' Outrages.
One thing I do not understand is the difference in pricing between the CPD's 17' Alert and the 17' Guardian. My 2001 CPD pricelist shows the Alert 17 (base, no console, aft composite thwart seat only, essentially just a bare hull) at $11,000. The 17' Guardian is listed at $25,500. The Montauk is listed at $20,700.
Note that these are Canadian prices and are a year out of date. To get to U.S. pricing, you would have to add any 2002 price increase and divide the result by 1.6 to account for the pitifully low value of the Canadian dollar against the U.S. dollar.
My confusion is that the 17' Guardian seems much closer to the Montauk in equipment than the base Alert. The added equipment in the Guardian over the base Alert is a centre console, a seat behind the console (albeit not the reversible pilot seat), "no feedback" cable steering including stainless wheel, stainless side rails, navigation lights, fire extinguisher and bilge pump. However, the cost of the Guardian is 25% more than the Montauk and almost 2.5 times the base Alert.
This seems to contradict lhg's theory that the Montauk is deliberately overpriced. Either that or Boston Whaler charges an excessively high price to add a centre console, seat and other miscellaneous equpment to a base hull. Or both.
I guess another way to look at it is that the base Alert is a relative bargain. Problem is no steering. The Alert also comes in a model with an optional side console with steering and second thwart seat, but I don't have a price for that model.
posted 12-16-2001 04:47 PM ET (US)
Grizzly, regarding your last sentence, please go back an see my above post describing the Alert model for which I was quoted the $8000.
All it needed was an engine and controls, and it was a ready to run boat. I was actually looking at the boat on the Dealer's lot, and have pictures of it. The "take it away" price was $8000. I found a source for a Continental (model C-7) welded and galvanized, keel roller trailer for it, 1700lb capacity, 13" wheels, for $700.
Since I have never purchased a CPD model, I do not know how they actually sell these things. I assume this Dealer was discounting the list price maybe 10-15%? Not sure, however. This Dealership has done a lot of business with CPD, and I think it is probably important to find one of these, if you're interested in a good deal on a CPD model. I also have no knowledge of Canadian pricing of CPD Whalers. I have heard they are very expensive up there, more than the dollar conversion would indicate.
posted 12-16-2001 04:55 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the info lhg. Any chance you could e-mail those pics of the Alert to me? Is it still available? It sounds like it might suit my purpose.
As I think about it, I realize I am not sure the price I have for the Alert 17' is for the absolute base model or the one with the side console and the extra thwart seat.
posted 12-16-2001 05:45 PM ET (US)
As I have posted before, I have done the Alert/Montauk route years ago, as have many local commercial fishermen here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Many here buy the hull, buy a motor, build a console and do all the work themselves. My Alert 17 cost me $4795 in 1998 from Outboard Motor Shop in Alameda, who are one of, if not the largest dealer in these hulls (Alert 17) for Boston Whaler. I took the side rails from my 1986 Montauk, had custom bow rails built (open in front), and transferred a well worn customized Montauk console. Bought a new Pacific galvanized with all the options in 1999 and a New Merc 90 4s in 2000. I am ordering a Guardian console bare with windshield and black stainless grabrail for $1k delivered (No holes cut). The Alert hull weight 150 lbs. more than a Montauk, and you can specify where you would like them to lay the extra glass. I had mine placed around and under the console area both inner and outer hull as this is where I broke my Montauk. Unfortunately with fuel and batteries in console and a 1996 Merc 75 2s on the back the boat sat with a very slight bow down attitude. With the Merc 90 4s on now, it sits ever so slightly stern down so the water now drains. I also added the waterline rubrails which are through-bolted. A really neat looking hull!
posted 12-17-2001 10:37 AM ET (US)
You are making a great point lhg..... I have always suspected that BW was inflating the price of the Montauk to protect the Dauntless line. Thanks for the proof....
posted 12-18-2001 10:06 PM ET (US)
Until I read this forum, I had no idea that Boston Whaler of today was not what it had always been.I have 15center console sport with wood seats,I had no idea about new models within the last 15 years.Where I live you see tons of regular old whalers,blue interiors wood seats.It seems half the houses on some blocks have a whaler in the driveway.Point is why would someone spend 20 to30 thousand or more on a new boat when there are so many great used pre 1986 boats available.want a montauk? look in the paper they run 6 to10 thousand used.Why would someone spend 25 thousand for a new one with no classic appeal?
posted 12-18-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)
I understand your love for the classic boat you own, but to answer your question...some people want a new boat and don't buy for it's "classic appeal".
It's sometimes like buying a car, a house, an "ice box", the "classic appeal" of a 10 - 20 year old product is sometimes not the driving reason you buy a certain one.
But remember, sometime in the distant future, the boats bought now may become "classics" and yours will be an "antique". Higher in value and cherrished by collectors. Enjoy
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