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  Lake Tahoe to use 2-Stroke Fichts on Patrol Boats

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Author Topic:   Lake Tahoe to use 2-Stroke Fichts on Patrol Boats
hauptjm posted 12-21-2001 01:42 PM ET (US)   Profile for hauptjm  
It seems Bombardier has scored a bit of a coup.

http://www.boating-industry.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=28198

Nimbus 2000 posted 12-21-2001 03:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Nimbus 2000  Send Email to Nimbus 2000     

[This post has been edited by the moderator--jimh.]
[Purports to quote LHG in post re Carb 2008 emissions]
"It's interesting they should make that projection, since, from what I have read, the Fichts were the 'dirtiest' of the DFI's. The Merc 135 DFI Optimax is already there."--LHG
[I] found the above statement from [LHG].

I found this difficult to understand, my reason is apparent considering this post topic. [Apparently in reference to content of other resources cited above.]

[Expressed surprise that no one else has expressed concern regarding opinion of LHG cited above.]

[LHG] seems to have statement or an opinion on just about everything. [LHG] has made numerous remarks about the OMC now Bombardier products... that were less than kind. Interesting most remarks were without merit based on facts such as exist right here.

What gives? [LHG] with over 2000 [posts] certainly must be knowledgeable, since anyone with that number of post on a forum must be accepted as some form of an expert, or would have been drummed off by now. Did he happen to get stung with the old OMC products? Maybe he has stock in Mercury-Brunswick[?]

[Speculation about potential for LHG in politics] --Nimbus 2000 [Disingenuous remarks about forum software features.]

Chap posted 12-21-2001 03:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chap  Send Email to Chap     
Wow, I hope I am never your Snitch.

Grain of salt may help.

DCPeters posted 12-21-2001 04:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for DCPeters  Send Email to DCPeters     
I see a trend developing.

He claims to be a Seeker, but plays the Bludger role.

Woe is me.

lhg posted 12-21-2001 05:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Nimbus aka Hogwart.com aka Makoman: Glad you appreciate my comments and have found a way to get back in. Perhaps you're with Bombardier now, up there in Vancouver. Everybody here makes up their own opinion on what is creditable information. You certainly don't have to agree. We welcome your opinions.

Anyway, to help YOU comprehend what you can't understand:

1. The Ficht emissions were higher than both the Optimax and Yamaha HPDI's, per government testing, when they operated properly. Maybe Bombardier will improve upon that, but we have yet to see. Most of the other Fichts OMC put out either blew up or otherwise broke down, before the bankruptcy. The Ficht engines DID break the company's back with their "lemon" track record. 3 liter Optimax's seem to have had their problems also. If you want to buy a new Bombardier Ficht, or Optimax, for that matter, be my guest. I could care less.

2. The only 2008 approved DFI engine, by anybody, is the Merc Optimax 135. I have heard it's a good engine.

3. This Lake Tahoe commission sells out to the highest bidder. The article says they are dropping their current Yamaha and Honda 4 STROKES in favor of Fichts? Give me a break. Why get rid of clean 4 strokes on Lake Tahoe? It's money talking here, the highest bidder wins! Bombardier is desperate for everything they can get, and are putting the funds out for the publicity. Mercury has done this for years with the bass tournament crowd. Mercury and Yamaha, now with over 85% of the OB market, are not going to sit by and let them move back in, at least without a marketing fight.

Yamaha just announced extended warrantys, or Savings Bonds as a rebate, as an incentive to buy their 2002 products. Expect Mercury to match the deal.

Disclosure: I do own Brunswick stock, and currently own 4 Mercury Outboards, a two Boston Whalers, all Brunswick products. Brunswick may make Bayliner boats, but they have spared us from the horrible visual and water pollution of those obnoxious Bombardier jet blob boats & jet skis.

Brand loyalty is a horrible thing!

dfmcintyre posted 12-21-2001 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Larry -

Could you please point out a URL for Nimbus (and for anyone else...) to backup your research, since he seems to be, ah... at odds with your position.

"Interesting most remarks were without merit based on facts such as exist right here. "

The only "facts" that I spot was that Bombardier got the bid....

Best - Don

jimh posted 12-22-2001 12:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I have taken the rather unusual step of editing the post of user "Nimbus 2000".

I found the post to focus more on ad-hominem attack than on discussion of the topic.

The poster was newly registered and supplied a undeliverable eMail address, prevent me from contacting him directly in this matter.

jimh posted 12-22-2001 12:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
By the way, I did not find anything in the cited article regarding the adoption of Ficht engines at Lake Tahoe which indicated they were "cleaner" than Opti-Max or 4-stroke engines.

The article does mention that Bombardier will "supply" the engines, but it does not say that the Tahoe Authority is "buying" them. This clearly leaves room for speculation about the nature of the arrangement between the parties. I think there is significant PR potential here, much like getting your car chosen to be the PACE CAR at the INDY 500.

lhg posted 12-22-2001 01:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Last year at this time there was a big announcement that Yamaha and Honda were going to supply clean 4 stroke engines for the boats (and get the PR). These guys roll with the dollars. Bombardier must have wanted this one badly. I can see the advertisements already - Evinrude Fichts "selected" (to make the biggest contribution) for Lake Tahoe police boats". Last year, Yamaha and Honda were the ones "selected". But lets not kid ourselves here. None of this is anything new.

Incidentally, everything I have seen indicates that the 4 strokes are still the cleanest outboard available, considering both water and air pollution. The DFI's can be good, but don't have the ultimate potential of 4 strokes. This is why the big guys are developing big 4 strokes at the same time as the DFI's.

I just don't understand why the marine industry has been targeted so aggressively for emissions when I see these diesel trucks belching huge amounts of pollutants into the air every day.

And most cities recorded the cleanest air ever in the 4 days after Sept 11 when the airlines were shut down! It also suddenly revealed that the airlines are the biggest users of petroleum in the country, with supplies skyrocketing as the airlines slowed down.
I'll bet all the Whalers on this website don't put out as much air pollution in a year as a single 747 flight from NYC to LA. Aren't there about 4000 flights a day in this country? Talk about emissions!

Clark Roberts posted 12-22-2001 08:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
Jim, thanks for the editing job as it was needed, in my opinion! I want to hear varying opinions and ideas or I wouldn't visit this forum (at least twice a day) and have learned a lot and hope to have contributed some. Larry takes lots of time to try to advise and help others (as do most posters)and I know that his efforts are appreciated! A difference of opinion makes things lively and heaven knows, I have an opinion on every subject! Happy Whalin'... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
daverdla posted 12-22-2001 09:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
Seasons Greetings!

For the unwashed like me check out
http://home.earthlink.net/~promethean/latin.html

Have a safe and Happy Holiday

Dave

Peter posted 12-22-2001 09:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I suspect that if the outboard marine industry had a relatively stronger lobby group, it wouldn't be the target. However, it is unlikely that the outboard marine industry's market will ever be big enough to support a lobbying effort on a scale that the airlines and others have.
dfmcintyre posted 12-22-2001 10:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Larry-

Coupla random thoughts....

There are flight numbers and there are flight numbers. I recall a 20,000 number for total flight _movements_ (not numbers, will 'splain) during a 24 hour period. Depending on who is (and why) doing the counting, a "flight" might be non-stop or multiple stops, even with different flight numbers, but same a/c and crew....

Your pretty much on track about engines being almost donated. I had a conversation with one local dealers service manager. He stated that one local marine division really, really wanted to try the Yamaha 200 on their new purchase, but that Merc just about gave the engines away. Like about 1/2 dealer cost. With that incentive, they couldn't justify the cost differences, with public funds.

And they've had problems with the new Mercs. He pointed out that the abuse that they get is much more then an owner would tolerate though.

Best - Don

jbtaz posted 12-24-2001 08:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for jbtaz  Send Email to jbtaz     
Bombardier can buy themselves all the patrol boats on Lake Tahoe they want, but I seriously wouldn't call it major news, or some huge marketing accomplishment. I doubt they'll ever again be a major player in the outboard market. Merc and Yam have it all locked up.
hauptjm posted 12-26-2001 10:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
I originally put this notice of article up on the site for informational purposes only. Yes, I'm an old OMC man. Yes, lhg is an old Mercury man (Larry, not referring to age!). Regardless of your position and likes/dislikes, it's great that there is discourse like this occurring. Despite jbtaz'z eloquent remark, Bombardier is a major player. As a consumer, we WILL benefit from all of this.

As lhg points out, Mercury, Honda and Yamaha are not going to sit around on their duffs. What is so encouraging is that E&J/Bombardier seems to have jump-started a battle that needed to be jump-started.

The last year and half has been nothing but bad news. Yamaha took too long to introduce the larger hp 4-strokes, Mercury Optimax can't get out of their own way, OMC bankrupted by the Fichts, etc, etc. Now we're talking about competition. Who’s going to come out on top? Guess what, I love it. I hope E&J kicks butt. And so should Mercury, Yamaha, et al fans. Because you'll get a better product from your favorite brand.

As I said recently in another thread, "Let the Battle Begin".

SuburbanBoy posted 12-26-2001 10:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
Per lhg's comments on airplane emmissions. I was told that a modern passenger jet dumped the equivlent of a 55 gallon drum full of fly ash on take off. They are a huge polluter.

As far as 2-smoke outboards go. It is highly unlikley that any 2-smoke, Mercury, Yamaha or other is as clean as a modern 4-stroke. There are many advantages of 2-strokes, but low emmissions are not one of them.

Hi-tech 2-smokes are a dead end. I predict that over the next 48 months every manufacturer will attempt to harvest their investment in 2-smoke engineering and tooling. The market will move in another direction (4-strokes) and quietly kill off the all of the smokers. Does anyone miss their Saab 3 cylinder 2-smoke? The Fichts, Opti-Max's and other 2-smoke life extenders will follow the Saab to the curiosity corner. Hell, you can now purchase 4-stroke lawn and garden implements.

Based on demo's and my first hand experience, if Mercury does not pick a good technology partner they are in for some mighty rough water. They are far behind the curve on 4-stroke development. I expect to hear that they cut a deal with an automotive firm soon. This will help them to keep their King of the Hill status.

sub

hauptjm posted 12-26-2001 10:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
Sub,

I have wondered for some time, where was Toyota, GM, etc.? I would not be surprised at all if the players in the automotive industry got involved. If memory serves me, didn't Mercury and Ford have a relationship of some kind in the past? I really don't know what it was, but would be interested if one of the Mercury guys remembered.

Anyway, the next few years will be interesting. Maybe it will be a total paradigm shift.

triblet posted 12-26-2001 11:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for triblet  Send Email to triblet     
Mercury and GM had a manufacturing agreement,
at least a few years ago. Mercury built
a high tech alloy V8 for the Corvette
(ZR-1). Mercury was good at aluminum
stuff.

Chuck

Wild Turkey posted 12-26-2001 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
lhg...... Somebody correct me if I am wrong but, I think diesel engines are fairly clean burning (the visible soot is solid carbon particles - not much greenhouse gases). I think that is why you see so many of them in European sedans.

Chris

jbtaz posted 12-26-2001 11:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for jbtaz  Send Email to jbtaz     
I still belive that the two major players in this field will be Yamaha and Mercury. They will be both the kings of the hill. There just aren't enough available transoms around to make Johnrude a viable competitor to the two big guys. Between both Mercury and Yamaha and all the boat companies they own, as well as their engine supply agreements with others, and the past financial and mechanical problems that OMC had I don't see Johnrude becoming what they once were.
whalerron posted 12-26-2001 12:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalerron  Send Email to whalerron     
Wild Turkey,

I just read something about the EPA being concerned about diesel soot. (Sorry, I don't have the article anymore.) It said that soot in the air absorbs energy from the sun and heats up the air around it. For this reason, they are thinking that soot might be a larger contributor to the greenhouse effect than the various gasses they have been targeting. I guess this is the reason that the refineries are being forced to make low sulfur diesel by some date in the not to distant future.

- ron

jimh posted 12-26-2001 02:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I just read in TRAILER BOAT for January 2002 some "informed" speculation that the new Mercury high-horsepower 4-stroke engine may be built on the newer GM straight-6 block.

An in-line 6 with 250-HP would be a fire-breathing machine, yes?

I have to wonder about little hints like this that show up in the magazines. My guess is that these may be very "informed" speculation.

JohnAz posted 12-26-2001 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnAz  Send Email to JohnAz     
WHALERON if it wasn't the diesel dust,,,it would be some thing else,,,if the dust absorbs heat then the ground doesn't...
And what about all the Volcanoes going off around the world,,too much of thier dust and we have another ice age,,,,,"i don't think so"
EPA is full of H---- ---t
dfmcintyre posted 12-26-2001 10:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Jim -

Our three generation family business is a GM dealership over in Livingston County. I'be been driving one of the GMC Envoy demos over the holiday, and I've got to tell you that I've been impressed with the performance with that new 6. Quiet and very, very responsive.

Don

hauptjm posted 12-28-2001 03:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
As seen in todays Boating Industry
International:

Yamaha promotion: 0 down, 0 interest

Bombardier launches rebate program

lhg posted 01-04-2002 04:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I just read a very interesting article on the re-introduction and promotion of the new John-Rude product, in "Soundings Trade Only" magazine for Jan 2002. Among other things, it says "Bombardier plans aggressive advertising and boat show promotions for Evinrude-Johnson in the coming months."

All of this would be in line with the Lake Tahoe campaign being discussed here. They are making a huge push to regain their lost market share, much of which has been grabbed by Yamaha. The long standing American rivalry between OMC and Mercury caused many OMC buyers, and Dealers, to go to the "neutral" Yamaha rather than the "hated" Mercury.

There is some other very interesting comment in this article, including the problems they encounted with Ficht, which I will mention here, for the OMC fans, when I have more time.

JimH - I think the possibility that the new Merc large 4 strokes will be in-line 6's is interesting. They have been saying all along that it will be "a whole generation" ahead of the Yamaha/Honda V-6 solution. Maybe this is it. Could it have a DFI injection system? It seems that an in-line engine would be a simpler dual overhead cam design, resulting in a taller, but thinner, and probably lighter, engine. Every in-line 6 engine I've ever owned was highly reliable. Mercury's previous 99 cu in. in-line-6 outboards were the fastest on the water from the day they were introduced, until the larger V-6's showed up in 1976.

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