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  Anyone repower w/single V6 4-stroke yet?

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Author Topic:   Anyone repower w/single V6 4-stroke yet?
smcleod posted 01-02-2002 04:49 PM ET (US)   Profile for smcleod   Send Email to smcleod  
I have an '86 22' OR and I'm in the market for a new 225 Yami or Honda 4-stroke, thinking I can nearly pay for it in fuel and oil savings without giving up too much in performance. Right now I'm running a '98 Merc 225 non-EFI and it's a pretty thirsty setup, but it flat hauls-*%!# (~53mph). I had some high $$$$$ fuel bills ($4-600/mo.)last year. yeah, yeah, I know, ease off on the trottle...no fun.

Anyone out there have any direct experience or second-hand info on big Whalers and new single 4-strokes.

DCPeters posted 01-02-2002 07:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for DCPeters  Send Email to DCPeters     
how many hours are you running to suck up that much fuel? What avg $/gal?

That'll impact your payback calculation, unless you really just want that new motor...

smcleod posted 01-02-2002 08:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for smcleod  Send Email to smcleod     
lots of hrs! I haven't really monitored hrs/trip, but rather gps statute miles/trip.

The bills includes truck fuel but do not include 2cycle oil. I run 4 days a week, 20-30 gal./trip in the boat. I'm think I'm getting somewhere around 1.5mi/gal.

So, let's say my avg. boat fuel consumption is 400gal/mo. @ $1.27/gal (last summer = $1.60/gal, now = $.95/gal) = $508/mo.

400 gal @ 50:1 2cycleoil = 8gal @ $10/gal = $80/mo.

With this scenario I'm spending $588/mo on fuel and oil. Now, let's say I get 30% efficiency by repowering w/a 4-stroke (who knows what the real # is????) so my fuel bill goes to $356/mo and I realize $80/mo. for not having to buy 2 cycle oil. That's a monthly savings of $232/mo. This yeilds an ROI term of ~64 months.

Now you have to look at the soft costs:

Maint. on old motor vs. new motor warranty for 3 years - $?

Lost fishing opportunity due to old engine mechanical failure - $?? (-;

Cost of capital if I finance a new motor or lost investment opportunity if I spend cash.

To really paint the picture accurately I guess I need to build a total cost of ownership model that accounts for this and more and applies weighted averages for fuel prices, monthly consumption, etc. and make some assumptions on maint. costs, etc.

The number one variable I need to lock in on is 4cycle efficiency rating.

...maybe I just want that new motor!

David Ratusnik posted 01-02-2002 10:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
smc- I've pondered the same question on my 86 OR with 225 carb Johnson. Runs like on rails right now. Soooooo, I spend 12-14K on a new 4 stroke??? Puts me upside down in overall boat value -- no?? I'm not certain what I will do when the Johnson goes, but it might make more sense to pick up another healthy 2 stroke with a couple hundred hours on it. Plenty of guys repowering and looking to dump good low hour engines. Like you I'm out plenty over a months period. Just a thought. David
JohnAz posted 01-02-2002 10:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnAz  Send Email to JohnAz     
Smcleod,,,sure is a fairly BIG hole in the water you have there,,
rgfdds posted 01-03-2002 02:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for rgfdds  Send Email to rgfdds     
i am ready to repower my 89 22ft or and am pondering the 4 strokes as california only allows hi tech 2 cycle fitch hpdi and optimax or the new 4 strokers
my buddy has a new yami 225 4 stroke good performace a little less respondsive his 22 ft cabo sitswith less freeboard and handles differently bow up due to the weight, old power was 200 efi. one shocker first oil change $34 filter and 6 qts of $4/ qt special oil. mileage has been good at least 30% better. i am very hesitant to be the first to try the 4 so if you do please post your hopefuly successful power change
jimh posted 01-03-2002 08:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Oil change and filter: part of the real costs of 4-stroke technologies. Some other real costs:

--$58 oil and filter
--$ ?? for labor
--haul boat out of water and trailer to dealer for service
--missed opportunity to use boat while being serviced
--environmental impact of disposal of used cranckcase oil and filter

Also consider environmental impact of just making the oil an filter used in the service:

--manufacturing of filter causes incremental pollution from assembly operations, painting filter, packaging it in box
--shipping of filter causes incremental pollution from truck, pallets, cardboard boxes, pallets, etc. used in transportation
--refining oil
--plastic bottles used in oil packaging

Did you use a Yamaha filter? Probably got shipped over from Japan by plane or boat. More environmental impact:

--incremental pollution from airplane or sh engine exhaust

What happened to the engine you were using? It is either still out there polluting, or maybe it got recycled, or maybe it ends up in a landfill. More incremental pollution.

Take the total difference in pollution between the old 2-stroke and the new 4-stroke, considering all the costs, and I bet it starts to get much smaller than the simple difference in emissions between the two engines. Add up all the polution "saved" (if any) and compare it to a city bus with a diesel engine that runs 24 hours a day. The bus probably emits more pollution every day than the 4-stroke will "save" in a year.

smcleod posted 01-03-2002 05:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for smcleod  Send Email to smcleod     
Never really considered environment impact, for if I were that concerned in this regard I would not have a boat because even blow boats require maintenance, that require parts mfg. that require packaging and shipping and on and on. Furthermore I wouldn't own a car, would move to the farthest reaches of earth, carve a dugout and live like Grizzly Adams. (;

My '98 "Black Anchor" (sorry Merc Fans) 225 is still out there polluting. I was just looking at trading it while it was still worth something (yami dealer will give me $4-5K).

This business of $58 for oil change in a yami is a turn-off. Anyone know what a Honda filter goes for? And what gives w/"Special Oil"? Isn't "earl, earl" when it comes to 4 stroke motors? I'll research that one further.

My boat in the shop for an oil change? I cringe at the thought. Any Honda owners know about this? Good point, I'll look into that as well.

My intial research has me leaning towards the new Honda coming out this month. a) It's based on a proven automotive motor and I'd bet it uses standard oil & filter. b)I've owned Honda products in the past...the most reliable motorized products I ever seen. c) looks a lot better than that big fat dishwasher looking outboard Yami puts out...check out the Honda-marine web site....pretty sexy.

Sorry for rambling-on. Any and all input is most appreciated!

B Bear posted 01-03-2002 10:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for B Bear  Send Email to B Bear     
With my Honda 90 I use a Honda CVIC engine oil filter and normal SAE 10-30 engine oil. It is easy to drain and change and I just deposit the old oil into a recycle station can. About $20 altogether. I am sure the larger Honda engines also use automitive oil filters, which by the way are usually larger than tose found on other four strokes that require a "special" outboard oil filter that is smaller in size.
Bear
Arch Autenreith posted 01-03-2002 11:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Arch Autenreith  Send Email to Arch Autenreith     
Jimh brought up some good points about other 'true' costs of 4 vs. 2 stroke in addition to environmental impacts. Can you also imagine resources used and the byproducts, etc., in the manufacturing process itself for an engine? Although there can be clear benefits to buying new, oftentimes from a green issue they may not be so clear.
I always think of this before purchasing anything new. Even though I might give this serious consideration the one benefit that will push me towards a new 4 stroke will be the quiet factor. (Maybe I’ll look for a used 4-stroke) ;-)
These are just my personal thoughts and views.

Arch

lhg posted 01-04-2002 06:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Yamaha is doing a good job of getting the new 4 stroke 225's out and into the South FL market, the biggest large outboard market in the country. I was amazed at how many I saw on my recent vacation down there. Never had a chance to ask an owner how they liked them, however.

They are 60 degree Vee blocks, but they look like a 90 degree engine and are quite wide because of the valve train gear.

SuburbanBoy posted 01-08-2002 12:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for SuburbanBoy  Send Email to SuburbanBoy     
I never saw a large honda that did not take the standard Honda oil filter. $5 for the Honda part where I shop.

sub

smcleod posted 01-08-2002 06:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for smcleod  Send Email to smcleod     
just got the quote from my local Honda dealer on the BF225, controls, instrumentation , installed - $17.3K. yowzer! that'll be a tough sell...
Tom W Clark posted 01-08-2002 07:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Jimminy Christmas! I just spent $17.3K on a new truck last night. Came fully rigged with a four stroke V-6, controls and instruments included.

I was talking with the parts guy, John, from Jabonsen's Marine here in Seattle, and he said the new Yamaha four stroke 225 was going for $15K. I said "that dosen't sound too bad" but he said "if your buying twins...."

He also commented on what he described as the new Grady 31' with twin Yamaha four stroke 225's. He was, of course, waxing poetic about it. "How much?" I asked. "About a quarter of a million" he replied.

lhg posted 01-08-2002 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
"Whaddja pay for that Yamaha or Honda Outboard?" Whew! You're kidding, of course?

(Recently overheard at a Mercury Boat Show exhibit)

Flying Nutshell posted 01-14-2002 10:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Flying Nutshell  Send Email to Flying Nutshell     
Just a couple more late thoughts...I've just repowered my 27 Offshore with Yam F225s vs OMC 250s. The lack of noise, lack of smoke, and immediate starts are alone almost worth it, and though I don't have hard GPS data yet, I believe I've at least doubled my mileage. I also haven't lost much in topend, running about 43kts WO. From my perspective these are really impressive motors! Assuming first impressions hold up, and they stay problem free, I'll be replacing twin 115s on my 22 Outrage just as quickly as I can muster the funds. Best regards, Flying Nutshell
David Ratusnik posted 01-14-2002 10:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
Flying... Curious, what engines did you pull off the boat you repowered? What did they give you for the old engines? How many hours on them and in what kind of shape? Thanks for your info. David
reelescape1 posted 01-15-2002 09:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
Flying, Are you considering repowering the 22' with twin 115 four strokes (@800lbs)?
Flying Nutshell posted 01-19-2002 03:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Flying Nutshell  Send Email to Flying Nutshell     
I pulled off OMC 250hp V8s, one with a thrown rod, the other seemed fine. I sold the pair for $1800, with the buyer removing the motors and controls, so I saved a bit in labor on the new installation.

As for the 22, I plan to replace the twin 115s with a single F225 at some point. Though no rush, as the 155s are running great. Waiting will also give me time ro really evaluate the 4-stokes.

grandmufti posted 01-20-2002 04:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for grandmufti  Send Email to grandmufti     
I don't know where you guys are buying your oil for your 4 strokes that it would cost $58 for 5 Quarts.My Yamaha manual calls for 10w-30w API SE,SF,SG,SH.
I paid $1.29 a quart for Valvoline API Services SL/SJ Which according to the below categories meets or exceeds their requirements.Go to your local auto parts store for your oil.The following is quoted from Lubrizoil web site.It explains the API services and when they were implemented.

SE — 1972 Gasoline Engine Service (Obsolete) — Category SE denotes service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars and some trucks beginning with 1972 and certain 1971 through 1979 models operating under engine manufacturers' warranties. Oils designed for this service provide more protection against oil oxidation, high-temperature engine deposits, rust, and corrosion in gasoline engines than oils that are satisfactory for API Engine Service Categories SD or SC and may be used when either of these categories is recommended.

SF — 1980 Gasoline Engine Service (Obsolete) — Category SF denotes service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars and some trucks beginning with 1980 through 1989 models operating under engine manufacturers' recommended maintenance procedures. Oils developed for this service provide increased oxidation stability and improved antiwear performance relative to oils that meet the minimum requirements of API Service Category SE. These oils also provide protection against engine deposits, rust, and corrosion. Oils meeting API Service Category SF may be used when API Engine Service Categories SE, SD, or SC are recommended.

SG — 1989 Gasoline Engine Service (Obsolete) — Category SG denotes service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars, vans and light trucks operating under manufacturers' recommended maintenance procedures. Category SG oils include the performance properties of API Service Category CC. (Certain manufacturers of gasoline engines require oils that also meet the higher diesel engine Category CD.) Oils developed for this service provide improved control of engine deposits, oil oxidation, and engine wear relative to oils developed for previous categories. These oils also provide protection against rust and corrosion. Oils meeting API Service Category SG may be used when API Engine Service Categories SF, SE, SF/CC, or SE/CC are recommended.

SH — 1994 Gasoline Engine Service — Category SH was adopted in 1992 to describe engine oil first mandated in 1993. It is for use in service typical of gasoline engines in present and earlier passenger cars, vans and light trucks operating under vehicle manufacturers' recommended maintenance procedures. Engine oils developed for this category provide performance exceeding the minimum requirements of API Service Category SG, which it is intended to replace, in the areas of deposit control, oil oxidation, wear, rust, and corrosion. Oils meeting API SH requirements have been tested according to the American Chemistry Council (ACC) Product Approval Code of Practice and may utilize the API Base Oil Interchange and Viscosity Grade Engine Testing Guidelines. They may be used where API Service Category SG and earlier categories are recommended. Effective August 1, 1997, API SH cannot be used except with API CF, CF-2, CF-4 or CG-4 when displayed in the API service symbol, and the C category must appear first.

SJ — 1997 Gasoline Engine Service — Category SJ was adopted in 1996 to describe engine oil first mandated in 1997. It is for use in service typical of gasoline engines in present and earlier passenger cars, vans and light trucks operating under vehicle manufacturers' recommended maintenance procedures. Oils meeting API SJ requirements have been tested according to the American Chemistry Council (ACC) Product Approval Code of Practice and may utilize the API Base Oil Interchange and Viscosity Grade Engine Testing Guidelines. They may be used where API Service Category SH and earlier categories are recommended.

SL — 2001 Gasoline Engine Service — Category SL was adopted to describe engine oils for use in 2001. It is for use in service typical of gasoline engines in present and earlier passenger cars, sport utility vehicles, vans and light trucks operating under vehicle manufacturers' recommended maintenance procedures. Oils meeting API SL requirements have been tested according to the American Chemistry Council (ACC) Product Approval Code of Practice and may utilize the API Base Oil Interchange and Viscosity Grade Engine Testing Guidelines. They may be used where API Service Category SJ and earlier categories are recommended.

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