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ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Outrage 22-25, Ride in Choppy Water?
|Author||Topic: Outrage 22-25, Ride in Choppy Water?|
posted 01-03-2002 11:13 AM ET (US)
Hello everyone. I am considering a buying a 22-25 1980's Outrage (or Revenge) for use in the Chesapeake Bay. I currently own a 1973 13' 40HP Whaler. While I consider this boat, when properly handled, to be safe in almost all conditions, the ride can be somewhat harsh. I have been lobbying my wife for permission to buy a larger boat, with the assurance that the ride will be smoother. How do these boats ride into a steep 2-3 foot chop at planing speed? Is there alot of pounding? I do not need to go 30 mph into the waves, but 20 mph would be nice. I like the older Whalers for their almost bulletproff construction and excellent stability, but would a newer Boston Whaler or some other boat (I hate to even think it) be better for these conditins? Any help would be greatly appriciated.
posted 01-03-2002 11:29 AM ET (US)
I grew up in a 13-ft Sport with a 33 Johnson on Great Peconic Bay on Long Island (15 years). We did everything in that boat, including getting pounded beating into it. I moved to a Montauk, which was great (8 years). And up here in Southeast Alaska I bought a 1990 Revenge 22 with 225 Johnson & 9.9 Yamaha kicker. What a HUGE improvement over the 13 & 17... for what I use it for. And my needs have changed, with a wife & two girls, I needed a porta-potti, the cuddy cabin makes that a positive experience vice "OK, everybody look the other way." Kind of funny how the girls enjoy boating more with a cabin, than having to "hold it" for 6 hours if you had guests aboard. I've sailed Ches Bay a number of times (in larger boats) but conditions are similar to SEAK - long fetch and 10-15 knots. The Revenge eats it up, and is comfortable. But everything is relative. A 31' Whaler would be smoother, so would a 42' Post or 46' Bertram, and you know the "but...". Remember, pounding in a 13' flatbottomed Whaler is different than pounding in a 22-25' deep-V Whaler. I think the Outrage or Revenge would be great for you on Ches Bay.
posted 01-03-2002 02:25 PM ET (US)
SteveC – I think a 22 or 25 Outrage or Revenge would be a great choice for the Chesapeake Bay. I have boated there only once, but I do quite a lot of boating on Lake Michigan. I think the conditions between the two can be quite similar. The 25 Outrage is an incredibly smooth riding boat. Any boat will pound if you go straight into the waves. My friends have taught me to angle into the waves much like a sailboat tacking into the wind. By doing this, I have been able to achieve speeds of 30 MPH in 3 to 5 footers without pounding. I have left boats twice my boat’s size in my wake simply because they insisted on pounding straight into the waves while we tacked back and forth, up wind, without pounding.
I have to agree with everything jimp said, particularly about the cabin. The cuddy cabin is a beautiful thing. It has come in quite handy for passengers who wanted a private place to use the head. It is great for storage as well.
One special whaler moment for my girlfriend and me occurred last summer. We were out on Lake Mich. just before sunset when a 75-foot Hatteras came blasting out of the channel and headed to the North throwing a giant bow spray as she cut through the waves. The wind was out of the North West with a 3 to 5 foot chop. Several “Clorox bottle” cruisers began to chase the Hatteras as she headed to the North. I turned to my girlfriend and said, “Honey, I got to try.” At witch point I throttled up and began to chase the Hatteras as well. Since we were angled to the waves, we were able to blast by the Clorox bottle fleet and, much to our amazement we were able to catch the Hatteras. We pulled along side, keeping a respectable distance between the two boats. That Hatteras looked incredible in the rays of the setting sun illuminating the thirty-foot sheets of spray coming off her bow.
For a few moments, we were side by side. My girlfriend and I admiring the Hatterass and the way she cut through the waves with no motion to the passengers what so ever. Needles to say, the ride was not as smooth on my boat, but it was not bad at all. We noticed that the passengers on the Hatteras were checking us out as well. We were the only boat that was able to keep up with them. It was a whaler kind of moment. With a final wave of appreciation to the Hatterass, I peeled of and we returned to the harbor.
Hope this is helpful and please excuse the long-winded story,
posted 01-03-2002 02:55 PM ET (US)
We have run a 22' revenge in the area above the bay bridge for over a decade now and found the boat to be a very nice match during typical/fishable weather conditions. The revenge has a nice wind/wet day block, and plenty of fishing room in the cockpit, or flyfishing room from the front.
We are trying to sell our revenge since we have moved our fishing focus to off the delaware shore, where it is nice to have a center console when fighting larger game (typically tuna). We currently are running a 25' outrage, and it handles the conditions very nicely.
In my experience, you will normally be "safe" in either hull in typical chesapeake chop (using good sense). i personally don't think in head on seas either boat will be very different (but our revenge does have a whaler drive, hence two more foot of length). Anchored up, i also think that rolling will be pretty similiar.
posted 01-04-2002 02:36 PM ET (US)
Jimp: I, too, grew up on Peconic Bay and am fortunate enough to still live there in Southold. Presently have a 20' Outrage and a 25' Blackfin which pretty well cover my needs. Where did you hail from?
posted 01-04-2002 03:07 PM ET (US)
White Bear -
On the north shore in Laurel, bout 1/2 mile east of Brushes Creek, or 1 mile west of the entrance to James Creek. Dad still has the house. My great grandfather built it in 1922. All Dad's boats were/are named "Weather-Lee". His current boat is a Pursuit Denali 28, keeps it in Strong's Marina in James Creek. Used to boat out of New Suffolk Shipyard - Schoolhouse Creek ('50s-mid 70s), then Cutchoque Marina (mid 70s-'91) on Wickham Creek.
Had a college buddy on Goose Creek in Southold. During college summers ('73-'76), I taught sailing in Greenport at Windward Cruising.
We'll be in Laurel next June and traveling to look at colleges back east. Maybe a rendezvous?
posted 01-05-2002 10:05 PM ET (US)
Steve, I own a 23 Outrage and use it in South Jersey covering ocean and Del. Bay running. I primarily run in the 2-3 ft. chop as you mentioned. This boat handles such conditions very excellent. When I trim the bow down with the trim tabs, the ride really flattens out and the new hull design is wonderful. Never ever have I gotten wet. My friends with other similar sized boats have remarked, "wow, you can tell you are riding in a Whaler". Good luck with the purchase.
posted 01-05-2002 10:22 PM ET (US)
SteveC- Here goes another take on your ride question. Keep in mind that I am an owner of a 22' 86 OR and love the boat. The ride is poorer in chop than a Mako, Proline, Seacraft etc etc- or any other similar sized boat sporting a deep V hull. By comparison to deep V boats the Whalers you contemplate hit the chop hard, yes, trim tabs improve the ride somewhat. There are plenty of upsides to the Whaler hull design but ride quality is not one of them. Hey, go ask 10 guys at a Marina who have boating experience what they think of a Whaler ride. "Harsh" would be a common description. David
posted 01-06-2002 05:07 PM ET (US)
I have a good friend who has a Montauk and runs off of the Chester River. He likes the boat (gift from fahter-in-law... nothing better than a free Whaler!) a lot but the chop in the Bay does make for a hard ride. I have (gasp!) a 22' Grady with a modified vee hull. Similar to the Accutrack (sp?) hull on new late model Whalers. I run out of the Magothy River and have been up and down length of the Bay. I think that you will truly appreciate the vee in the Bay. Makes facing a northly much more appealing. Good luck with your search.
posted 01-06-2002 05:36 PM ET (US)
MB- Those 22' Gradys are nice for fishing in the flats. What say. David
posted 01-06-2002 06:09 PM ET (US)
I have not really done a lot of fishing off of her. Mainly got her for the sea worthiness, the quality and the ride in the Bay chop. Wife and kids (2 girls) like the cuddy for the ability to use the head in private! We have some flats in the areas behind Kent Island and along the Wye River. Great for wildlife watching. The boat draws about 20" with the motor up so I can get in pretty close. The look on my daughter's face as the huge flock of Canada geese took off from the marsh was almost worth the cost of the boat! Hope you are having a nice winter season down there in Florida. As for me, the boat is on the hard for the winter and the freezing rain is falling outside. almost enough to drive a guy to drink:(
posted 01-06-2002 07:27 PM ET (US)
Magothy Boy, my brother and I have 22' whaler revenge's located on the "Severn River" and have found the boat's to handle well on the river, and the bay. Any questions please email me, and would like to hear how the search is coming
posted 01-06-2002 07:35 PM ET (US)
Whoops, Steve this message was for you as well. Feel free to email me ref additional info about the revenge. Good luck Whaler Watching
posted 01-06-2002 09:07 PM ET (US)
Magothy Boy is correct in the use of a drogue towed astern to slow forward movement and hold the stern to following seas. There is a reference about this on page 43 of Chapmans Piloting.
posted 01-06-2002 10:51 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the comment, although I think you probably intended to post in one the "Following Seas" thread in lieu of this one. The funny thing is that there is such a variety of sea states that folks can be exposed to the what is dangerous in one persons opinion is fun in another persons opinion. The impact of wave height as opposed to period also has a great deal a variety. Most outboard boats actually have a drogue built in... the motor lower unit itself. With not throttle applied this acts as a small drogue. Problem is that with no throttle applied, the outboard boat lacks rudder control. Hence the use of the drogue to allow for reduced speeds and yet the maintenance of steerage way.
I suspect that jimh and tom usually experience large non-breaking waves with large periods. In this case, the probability of burying the bow in the next wave is pretty low and a drogue is probably not necessary. But in the Chesapeake Bay where you can get 4-5' waves with steeper faces and a shorter period, the idea of using a drogue to keep from plowing the bow and broaching is possibly a little more advised.
Heck if the sea state is such that you are taking water over the transom and you absolutley need to go down sea, maybe deploying a drogue off of the bow to keep the bow to the sea while using moderate reverse to control the direction of drift is even better.
Oh well, enough rambling. Time for bed. Have a nice evening and a great day tomorrow.
posted 01-06-2002 11:34 PM ET (US)
Magothy Boy – Excellent post and welcome to the forum.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 01-07-2002 12:33 PM ET (US)
No question about the usefulness of a drogue. They have been, and will continue to be useful to ocean going ships and sailers as well as certain kinds of boats near shore. They are not the sort of thing to use behind you Whaler.
Chapman does describe the use of a drogue for slowing a boat and goes on to point out "...all the foregoing are the usual tactics applied in breaking surf by experienced surfman in full displacement, round bilged and normally slow boats. You could not apply this practice successfully to modern, well designed semi-displacement and fairly fast types of hull"
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