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  My 20-Revenge W/T? I want it!

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Author Topic:   My 20-Revenge W/T? I want it!
dd posted 02-07-2002 09:33 PM ET (US)   Profile for dd   Send Email to dd  

I've been stalking a 1987 BW Revenge 20w/t in my neighborhood for some time now. Not stalking really, but admiring from afar... I finaly made contact with the owner and he is open to sell. I've picked up a lot BW knowledge reading from the sidelines and believe I know what I am getting into, but for reassurance, I thought I'd toss this out to you "experts" for comments and support. I want a classic....

Not sure if the owner is reading this or not - I will use comments gathered here to support my assumptions and max $$ I am willing to part with. Unfortunately, my decision on $$ may be flawed because: 1. I really want the boat. 2. The wife said I could get it.

Thanks in advance for your comments. Especially you Jim cuz I know you got one...

Quote from the current owner:
The boat and both engines are all 1987. The 200 hp Johnson has only about 500 hours and the 15 hp has probably 20 hours since new. There are downriggers and a comuunication radio as well as a fishfinder/depth finder. There is also a handheld gps that I will throw in if you want it. There are several anchors, and a host of other misc. safety equipment items. There are several extra props and the one on the boat has about 10 hours on it. The entire transmission has about 4 hours on it since brand new. I hit a rock last year and damaged the old one. It was over $3000 for the new transmission.

The boat was hauled in 2000 and probably needs it again this summer. The trailer has not been used for about three years and will need new tires . It probably will not win any beauty contests but is serviceable as far as I know
unquote...

OK. A hardly used boat with orignal motors that hit a rock last year... I think the guy bought it in 1996, so comments on what he might have paid then would interesting...

-I took a few quick shots today and you can view them at 'www.deisinger.com' clik on the "I Want It" link. No comments on the other pictures pls...
-you can see that the lower unit is new. I believe him when he says only 4hrs on it... I haven't seen it out... ever.
-Boat has grass on the bottom and will need new bottom paint - I plan to keep it in the water a lot so that is ok. Looks ok from the outside. The only visible blemish I can see from the dock is a 2in crack in the gelcoat on the top of the transom bracket. The crack is only an 1/16th wide at the most, but water can get in.
-I've written off the electronics as they are either dated or the wiring needs replacing any way.
-I haven't been down below to see if there is any leaking/mildew/etc.
-Trailer is being stored in a field somewhere, probably for years... I know the boat has been wet for a while and that the trailer will need work. Despite keeping it the water a lot, I will want to tow it up/down the coast.

OK. A hardly used boat with orignal motors that hit a rock last year... I think the guy bought it in 1996, so comments on what he might have paid then would interesting...
I'm trying to hook up with the owner this Sat/10th and go for a ride. Anyone in SFO this week is welcome along. Could use the support and scrutiny.

thanks/dd

jimh posted 02-07-2002 11:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Hi dd,

That Revenge is almost the twin to mine.

The "grease fitting" on the main engine lower unit is to link to the auxillary engine so that the steering can turn the auxillary engine, too.

We have really had many fun trips and cruises in our 20-Revenge. It is about the smallest Whaler with a cabin that you can overnight in. With a 200-HP engine you should be powered right to the max. The boat should perform very well.

Good luck!

--jimh

Ray posted 02-08-2002 01:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ray  Send Email to Ray     
Dennis,
Here's the scoop. I purchased one like it 3 years ago and owned it for 2 years. Mine was an '81 with 175 Evinrude. I paid $5,000 with 15 Yamaha and galv. calkins trailer both in very good condition. I put $4,000 more into it including a complete powerhead overhaul.
Now the bad news. I absolutely hated the boat. It porpoised and generally rode like a truck. I seemed very front heavy. I talked to many people about it and they all told me it was a mistake that Whaler never should have released. I know Jimh has one and loves it which makes me believe that the twin engine set-up must add a different dimension to it's overall performance. I would definitely wait to get a 22'. I had a 1973 outrage 21' for 23 years and loved it but sold it for the added weather protection. The old 21' out performed the 20' revenge 10-1. I now have a 1985 25' Revenge and love it. If you get very serious about this one I would definitely run her through the paces in all kinds of water to make sure you enjoy the ride and the handling. Then get into someone's 22' and compare.
Ray
george nagy posted 02-08-2002 03:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
Where is the bow pulpit? I have an 87 150 and it is nearly done not really worth putting $$ into it imo. Any whaler is a good whaler. Good luck!
jimh posted 02-08-2002 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
With regard to Ray's experience with his 1981 20-Revenge, I have to think that part of it has to do with where he boats: the eastern shore of Lake Michigan.

The three times in the past 18 months that we have been over there the lake has been howling. Most of these times our group of Whalers were about the only boats on the lake! The prevailing winds are from the SW and there is a big fetch. It makes the Michigan shoreline rather rough. I would want a bigger boat, too, if those were my home waters.

We like to trailer, to move the boat around to different places. There is a difference between hauling a 25-foot rig that weighs 7000# and a 20-foot rig that weighs 4000#. This can affect your decision, too. I think Ray leaves his boat in a slip all season, so trailering is not a big issue for him.

Also, I really believe you have to grow upward in boat size gradually, and as we were moving up from a 15-footer, the bigger boats looked like the Queen Mary on a trailer to us. Now, with 5,000 miles of highway travel under our belt towing a larger boat, we might not be as intimidated at the thought of hitching up 7000# to our bumper.

I think your ride improves with size, but I don't think there is a miraculous change in 2-foot increments. A 22-foot Whaler probably does ride a bit better than a 20-foot Whaler, which rides better than an 18-foot Whaler, which rides better than a 17-foot...

We can induce porpoising on our 20-Revenge with certain combinations of speed, trim, and sea state, but in general it is not a problem. There is always some speed and trim combination that produces a decent ride.

I would like to get a couple of 20-foot or 22-foot boats side by side from the two main versions of this hull (1980-1985 "V-22"/"V-20" era and the 1986-1990 22/20 era) and see exactly how they compare. There has been some speculation that the deadrise increased in the newer models, although this has been debated. (Cf. Cetacea Page 46).

We have cruised approximately 1,000 miles now in groups with 18,19,21,22, and 25 foot Whalers, and it has been our experience that we can keep up with all of them except in the most extreme conditions or when we run out of speed due to our lower horsepower situation. It is not like we are left porpoising and pounding while the other guys are flying through 3-footers with ease.

Next time we head west for Lake Michigan we'll have to hook up with Ray and trade boats for a while!

--jimh

lhg posted 02-08-2002 07:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Ray has inadvertently mis-lead all of you guys. He is talking about a DIFFERENT 20' Revenge! His was the old, hard riding original V-20 hull, with 12 degree deadrise, Whaler's first venture into a deep V hull.
And worse, it had the ususal old OMC V-6 engine, with inadequate trim tuck-in range.
This resulted in the porpoising problem, which has previously been discussed about the same hulled 20 Outrage, vintage 1978-1984.

The 87 boat being considered, as is JimH's, was new in 1985, and is the same hull as a 22 Outrage/Revenge, the mold being shortened in the stern 2'. So Jimh's comments here would be more relevent to a purchasing decision.

lhg posted 02-08-2002 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Jim - in reading your comments, the 22 Outrage hull was never changed. The Guardians being built today are the same as the 1979 original model. It was only the original V-20 that was changed.
jimh posted 02-08-2002 08:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Thanks for the additional comments, they explain a lot of the differences reported in the behavior of the hull.

--jimh

dd posted 02-09-2002 03:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for dd  Send Email to dd     
Thanks for the feedback. Going out for a test cruise tomorrow.
reverting.
dd
Ray posted 02-11-2002 08:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ray  Send Email to Ray     
I now understand why my 81' Revenge was not a good performer. I have been so curious how jimh was so fond of his 20 footer. It makes sense now with the change in hull design. Stop by next summer jimh and we will swap boats at least for a quick ride. All of your comments regarding trailering are right on. No way would I own a 25 without a seasonal slip. Let us know dd how the test ride went.
Ray
dd posted 02-13-2002 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for dd  Send Email to dd     
Well the test ride was a bust, but I did get to crawl around the boat. The owner hasn’t taken the boat out since last fall. And since I caught him off guard with my request to possibly buy it. It was in less than show condition

Anyway, we never left the dock because the steering cable was frozen. No use for 5+ months and the grease hardened up.
-Does the cable need to be replaced or can it be lubed some how? How much is a cable? Looks like an all day job to replace it.

The bilge in the main cockpit had standing water and lot of crud (moss/leaves) floating around in it. I could see this from the aft stb cutout where the cables/gas hose comes out.
-How hard is this to clean up? The bilge pump worked, but surly will get clogged soon.

Engine sounded good, but can’t tell anything without a load. Only 547 hrs on the hour meter… 15hp kicker is original too. New lower unit is because he drifted a cross a mudflat at low speed then punched it. That ripped the guts out of the transmission…. I know exactly where he did it so sounds reasonable to me.

Down below was all stock and looked dry. He had a lot of fishing gear down there so I could not dig around too much.

Mold. The cabinet under the console had some nasty looking mold growing in it, so it looks like things get moist there. Obviously the teak was sun-bleached and spotty.

What next? The guy is not in a hurry to sell it, but says if he cleaned it all up he could get 15K. Seems a bit high. I am thinking of offering 11K as it and spending 2K to get it into shape.

What say youz?

Tom W Clark posted 02-13-2002 04:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
dd,

It sounds like things worked out rather well for you. Any time I buy something used I consider it a real blessing to have the chance to see how something is/was actually cared for. You have this benefit. Now put it to use for you.

The steering cable being frozen is not unusual, in fact it is very common. Probably not hard to fix either. I doubt the cable itself will need replacement, at least not yet. I used to have to free up my cable every year after long periods of storage, so you shouldn't be afraid of it.

However, you needn't let the seller know this. You might want to get some estimates for replacing the cable for two reasons. One, you'll then know the worst case scenario for dealing with it and two, you can tell the seller you think this is just the first of many expenses you will incur getting this boat ship shape.

By no means should you be rude or insulting, but you should try to point out as many flaws as you possibly can about his boat. Try to quantify both the dollar expense you will have as well as your time (or his) involved with dealing with all these things.

As to price, I think you're on the right track but remember, in any negotiation, the "meeting of the minds" price is almost always half way between the asking price and your first offer price. Do not be afraid to offer low. But do have your reasons why your offer is reasonable. It does no good to just throw a number out without any justification. Good luck.

andygere posted 02-13-2002 05:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Tom gives some great advice. When I bought my Montauk, it was in a similar state: not abused, but left sitting and a little neglected for a while. This definitely works in your favor when negotiating on price, but as Tom said, be careful to be factual but not insulting. When I was ready to make an offer on mine, I had with me a spreadsheet showing the approximate cost (and source of pricing info) to repair what was wrong. Don't worry too much about mold, oxidized gelcoat or grey teak. These are well made boats, and all of this will come back to a gleaming state with a few weekends work of elbow grease. Also, be sure and make any offer contingent on a sea trial (specify what will "fail" the sea trial) and a compression test for the outboards. Although we all know that NADA estimates are unreasonably low for valuing Whaler hulls, the seller may not, so it doesn't hurt to print one out and bring it along. I think they are pretty fair for valuing used outboards, so run one for the motors too. Good luck, and let me know if you decide not to buy....
dd posted 02-16-2002 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for dd  Send Email to dd     
Andy/Tom, thanks. But I got mixed messages… the steering cable is frozen. This will be a point I can use in negotiation for sure, but due to this, I will not get a proper sea trial. If I want a proper sea trial, the cable will need to be fixed.
-Tom, how do you free your steering cable? Not wd40?
So my thoughts are build the spreadsheet as you say and take the boat as-it contingent on:
-my mechanic checking out the engines.
-hauling the boat and looking at the bottom – just to make sure its all there and there are no anomalies.

Lastly, any comments on cleaning the cockpit bilge? Is this an important item? It looks like there is a 3’ x 6’ (or so) cover on the cockpit sole that can be taken up. Doubt the owner would let me do that now, but should it be done after purchase?

dd

Tom W Clark posted 02-16-2002 12:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
dd,

OK, you've got a point. You need to get the steering working again. For starters, read this thread: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000570.html

You probably won't have to go to this much trouble. Start by simply spraying some WD40, or better yet Aerokroil from Kano Laboratories. The object is to just get the steering freed up for a sea trial. Understand that penetrating oil will help free up the steering but the cable will still need to be well greased to keep it that way. There are several upgrades you can perform on the steering like the seal nuts, stainless tilt tubes, ect. You can still harp to the owner about the future reliability of the cable and the need for these upgrades....

Cleaning the bilge? Not absolutely necessary but it may be desirable. Actually, getting down there and cleaning is always an excellent way to inspect things. The sump cover should come up with the removal of four little phillips head screws. No big deal. There are also a few deck plates that can be pried out as well. You will find a lot of crud and gunk down there, it's perfectly normal so don't get upset about it.

jimh posted 02-16-2002 12:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The bilge sump compartment in the 20-Revenge is just a single small well on the starboard side of the aft cockpit. It is also the exit of the cable tunnel that runs to the console.

If the boat is stored in the water with the plug out, water will fill the sump but remain below the level necessary to overflow and enter the central hull cavity which houses the fuel tank. Any rain that accumulates will drain to the sump and to the sea, the sump remaining slightly filled with its bottom drain open.

If the boat is stored in the water with the plug in, the sump will accumulate water, relying on the bilge bump to clear it. If the bilge pump fails or the battery runs down, the sump will fill and eventually the water will rise. It can also flow into the central hull cavity and up the cable tunnel.

The path into the central hull cavity is through the holes which pass the fuel tank feeder hoses from the fuel tank cavity, through a molded bulkhead and into the bilge sump. These holes pass through the bulkhead at the highest possible point, so that in normal operation the water in the sump will not rise to this level. The holes are not sealed with caulk or sealant; the Grade A1 approved fuel hose(s) run through a hole just slightly larger than the diameter of the hose. (If two hoses, then there are two holes.)

The central hull cavity is finished and sealed. That is, there is no interior foam exposed in there. There is, however, an aluminum fuel tank which is strapped in place and futher stabilized by being foamed in place. This tank would not prosper under a diet of continuous sea water, but it can get wet from time to time. Water that accumulates in the central hull cavity can not be drained. It exits by evaporation.

There is also a cable tunnel that runs from the console base to the rear bilge sump. This may collect some debris when the sump fills. You can flush this tunnel by taking a hose and inserting it at the console end, adding some liquid soap, and flushing the debris out of the tunnel. When I did this on my boat I got handfuls of old Ty-rap cut off ends, etc., which probably went back to the original rigging of the boat 14 years earlier.

The central hull cavity is covered by a removable molded deck lid. This is retained by several dozen mechanical fasteners and caulked in place. This piece is rather heavy and it is not intended to be removed on a routine basis.

One reason to remove it would be to facilitate the changing of the fuel tank vent hose and fuel tank filler hose. Clearing any debris in there could also be a motivation.

The existance of this central hull cavity which contains the fuel tank and has no provisions for draining accumulated water is a standard feature of most Whaler designs with integral fuel tanks.

On the larger hulls, the 22 and 25 for example, they usually have twin bilge sumps, one on either side, and these overflow into a center storage locker or fish well. I have not inspected them closely, but I would assume they also have fuel lines passing into the central hull cavity like the 20-foot hull does.

If the boat is stored on a trailer it is best to store with the sump drains open. Any water accumulating is immediately drained away.

Some owners do not like to store in water with the sump drain open because is admits seawater. There is the possibility of marine growth getting a toe hold in the sump compartment, or at least a good case of algae growing in there. If you have a good bilge pump and strong batteries, you can store in water with the sump drain closed, but I would not leave the boat unattended for weeks on end in that situation.

--jimh

pcogs posted 02-16-2002 02:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for pcogs  Send Email to pcogs     
I applied heat with a heat gun a couple of good knocks with a wooden mallet. After heating and letting it cool a couple of times it only took a couple of knocks.

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