posted 02-21-2002 05:43 AM ET (US)     

I am considering a 22' Guardian with single 200 or 225 power. I prefer the "old" (now with DFI systems and EFI four strokes available) EFI engines. I'm not going to log many hours on the boat, either, so the increase in cost for these systems for their reported fuel/oil savings I can't justify. I would like to put the Montauk (the "classic" one) console in it and either the Montauk (the "classic" again) reversible pilot seat or dual pedestal seats. Are trim tabs necessary for mainly inshore and occasional light offshore use? Where should the battery and oil reservoir be installed? I have seen them in the rear well in battery boxes. Is that recommended?

The 25 is a different situation. Is a single 250 adequate, or should I opt for twin power. I'm putting the motor(s), regardless of the boat size on the transom, as the Whaler Drive upgrade on the Guardian is over $10K (ouch!). Do I need trim tabs with the 25? Is the standard fuel tank (141 gallons) adequate, or should I consider upgrading to the 177 gallon option? The "Super Console" is not available, but a host of "Guardian" consoles are. Has anyone had experience with these, or should I stick with the Montauk setup as I propose for the 22. (I'd like to be able to sit down and see through the windshield in calm conditions.)

The last few questions for this post: I know that I need a trailer with full keel rollers. What brands are recommended for salt water? Do I need brakes on one or both axles? Will my Toyota Tundra (with a 7200# towing capacity) be adequate for the steep ramps where I live in Daytona Beach, Florida?

posted 02-21-2002 02:10 PM ET (US)            

Both a 22 and a 25? That's quite an expansion!

We have a 22 guardian with a 225 Yamaha. Trim tabs might be recommended due to the "lean" in the boat from prop torque. I suggest you find someone in your area with a 22 outrage or guardian with a similar set up and go for a test ride. See what you think. There should be plenty of mid to late 80's vintage whalers (outrages) down there to give you an idea on how the new Guardian will ride.

225 is plenty of power, so if you have a significant cost savings with the 200, and don't mind having fewer horses, you'd be fine with that engine. Static trim with the 225 is slightly "bow up" due to the weight on the transom.

Battery on ours is located in the console to keep it out of the elements.

posted 02-27-2002 03:16 AM ET (US)         

For a single, larger powerplant, any news on the Yamaha 275 HPDI? Will Bombardier/Johnson be making the 200 or 225 carb engines? Does Mercury offer the 225 with EFI or carb?

I'm wary of the DFI engines, in addition to the fact that my and my brother's relative infrequent use of the boat makes the increased cost difficult to justify.

posted 03-06-2002 11:44 AM ET (US)            

I cannot really recommend anything for your new CPD 22 as that would suggest I have some experience with such a boat. I do not. However, allow me this opportunity to put myself in your shoes and imagine what I personally might consider.

If I were to have CPD build me a 22’ boat I would generally want things done so as to make it somewhat like a no longer available Classic 22’. To this end I would order the hull in Desert Tan in and out.

I would want the Classic Montauk console as well as the Reversible Pilot’s Seat. The RPS is only made with a fiberglass seat back so I would build a teak one or perhaps offer to trade the glass one to someone with a teak one.

I would also make teak console doors and measure the required openings for them and tell CPD to NOT install plastic doors but merely cut the holes to the dimensions you supply. (they will need to cut some hole in order to rig the console.)

Mostly I would delete standard features from the CPD boat. I would delete all rails and have a bow rail made from stainless. I would delete the black cleats CPD uses and get the (still available) Marinium cleats as well as the Marinium Hawse Holes from Wilcox Crittenden, again mounting them as they were on the Classics.

I would request that CPD not install the flappered scuppers and use conventional drain tubes instead. This will eliminate the annoying leakage that is endemic to these devices.

I would ask them to use white or off-white deck plates instead of the black ones if such items are available. I would have them delete the plastic sump cover and make one myself from teak plywood.

I would let CPD know that I intend to put the batteries in the stern of the boat and thus the wiring will need to be routed with this in mind.

I would delete the black nav lights, though have the wiring run for them. I would buy the best I could find in stainless or chrome over bronze (the excellent Marinium lights by Wilcox Crittenden are no longer available).

I would have Mills Canvas make whatever canvas system I desired and I would certainly have them make a mooring cover for the boat.

I would install nothing but Lee’s rod holders in the locations I want them.

posted 03-06-2002 08:25 PM ET (US)         

I recently saw a new 22 Guardian in Whaler's current white color, like your new Alert. It looked very nice. Use the 1" black stripe under the gunwales, and the large red Whaler logos on the side, just like the Classics. I mention this white color since I would imagine that the console you select will only be available in recreational white, such as the Montauk console (I wonder how much longer they're going to be making that, now that the boat is discontinued). If you're going to use this console in a 22, consider raising it up 4", since in a 22 or 25 that console looks "squat" in such a large boat. I would order it without console rail, and get the "real" rail from CMI. The RPS should also be raised the same, or even 6" if you want to store a 72 Qt Igloo seat under it. I would also look at the brand new 18 Dauntless console. It's quite nice and might look great in a 22. The Standard Guardian console is OK, but doesn't have a console rail, which is important to have. That would be my last choice.

The bow floor is an area of concern in a 22 or 25 Guardian, since the recreational system of hatches and wells seem to be covered up by a one-piece floor panel. The hull mold still has these wells, so inquire into what they can do for you to make these accessible again. Maybe custom well covers or something. Don't know if the original recreational hatch covers are still available for a Guardian.

For seating, you might want to consider the "Kingfish solution", a Birdsall leaning post/high seat, in Whaler upholstery. Very nice. Incidentally, look at the photos of Kingfish's super-outfitted 22 Outrage. One of the finest I've seen!

Try and get a bow pulpit furnished, or if they can't do it, maybe a glass after market one can be installed. I agree with Tom W that I would basically order a bare hull with only console installed and pre-wired (specify what additional electrical needs you will have, electronic, etc.), and fit it out with recreational seats, coolers, hardware and rails, readily available from a good SS shop.
Rails should be 1". Or you can order the CMI bow and side rails like were used pre 1989. Be sure the CPD puts the screw pads in the gunwales where necessary.

I'd stay with the 77 gallon tank, and see if they can leave the rear baitwell and cover, even if unplumbed, which you can do yourself.

There are two extra cost transom options to consider. I would definitely select one or the other. If you want to stay with the notched transom, order it in the 30" version instead of the normal 25" version. Remember this hull was designed before the advent of twin 25" engines. The 30" transom (5" higher than normal) is almost a must for these boats, and will keep water out. It will also put the engine powerheads up 5", whether you go single or twin. Other option is to order a blank full transom, which then allows installation of an Armstrong bracket, a $2500 extra. This is better than the Whaler Drive anyway. A bracket should also be installed for a single 30" or twin 25" engines. If all of these factory transom options are too pricey, then I would buy the standard transom and mount the engine(s) on transom jack brackets lifted up 5", so the longer shaft engines can still be used. The hydraulically operated CMC jack is a surprisingly good deal at $600.

Order the factory installed raw water washdown. It's difficult to install later.

Use an Igloo 162 Qt cooler seat in front of the console. It's great for storage, seats two comfortably and high, and one can stretch out on it for sunning or a nap.

For HP, I'd consider the twin 150's that the Whaler Drive model is rated for if a full transom is ordered. Everybody makes these in CR versions. A pair of 115's would also be nice. If you want a big single, look at the Merc 225 EFI, even though you hate Mercurys!
It's the strongest 225 on the market, period.
But I'd go for twins on such a special, custom boat.

For a trailer, you're lucky to be in FL, take a look at the Continental keel roller brand.
Cantway Trailer in Delray Beach sells them fro great prices.

posted 03-07-2002 09:44 AM ET (US)            

Thanks again, Larry for the generous compliments re: Outre'.

I can't add much to Tom's and Larry's remarks (in fact probably wouldn't have thought of half of them), but here's a couple things-

I love the Birdsall leaning post/seat. It is the larger model with a greater dimension from front to back than the standard, and consequently not only is there more horizontal surface on which to park your fanny, but a larger storage bin underneath as well. I use the backrest and sit up on top of the l/p most of the time. Backrest legs slide into rocket launchers behind the seat, or the legs fold and it stows in the bin under the seat. I lowered the l/p by about 2 1/2" so the bottom of the storage bin just clears an Igloo 94 qt. cooler, and I raised the center console by about 4". I'm a short guy (5'-6") so that wouldn't necessarily work for everyone, but that puts the leaning pad right where I want it, and my eyes are just about the same level whether I'm standing or sitting, with the windshield providing real protection in both conditions.

I'd also second the 77 gallon tank unless you are a hardcore canyon fisherman, and maximum fuel supply is an absolute primary consideration. A single 225 will get 2-2 1/2 mpg under any conditions and I am hearing (haven't confirmed it in the first person yet) that some 225's are getting as much as 4 mpg, with a lot of higher cruising speeds. So you're looking at 150 miles range hands down, and the space in the deck where the larger tank would have been, between the end of the 77 gal tank and the splashwell, can be utilized for bait tank/livewell/storage.

Good luck-

posted 03-07-2002 11:07 AM ET (US)         

I was searching around birdsall's web site (it sounds you have a cool setup) and I can not find a deeper model. From your description it look like their "Leaning Post Seat #14100" is close to yours.

Did you lower the l/p your self or order it that way?

THX, Pete

posted 03-07-2002 11:56 AM ET (US)            

Birdsall and I apparently have a difference of opinion over the usages of the words, "leaning post" and "rocket launcher"; I suppose I'm probably the one that's wrong...

My unit is a Birdsall "Standard Rocket Launcher" with a 10" tray. I wanted as much width as I could comfortably use in my 22' without impeding traffic on either side, and the 38" width works perfectly. I ordered the folding back rest and folding foot rest and had them add a rear grab rail around the rod holders that did not add to the width of the seat. I was concerned that their "whale-tail" grab rail, which is really nice, would impede the traffic route too much if I was in a hurry (fish on!).

I had a local sheet metal shop shorten the legs and heli-arc them to a 1/4"x4"x16" anodized aluminum plate that I drilled for the original BW leaning post screw holes already in the deck. If you could determine the height you wanted the seat (i.e., bottom of the tray clears the padded top of a 94 qt cooler by 1/2"), and the size and location of the base plates (if you didn't want to use Birdsalls standard 4" dia. round base plates), the slick thing would be to have Birdsall do the shortening, if they'd agree to. Using the same rod and tecniques right there in the same shop might improve the appearance.

posted 03-07-2002 11:40 PM ET (US)         

I'm working now on the storage and trailer situation. Will the 22 with the classic Montauk console fit in a garage with an 8' high door? My dealer is looking into this for me as well, but I wondered if anyone of you stores your 22' in this manner. The garage is 30' deep and 10' wide...the only concern is the height. Any thoughts?

posted 03-08-2002 12:39 AM ET (US)            

FYI, Birdsall agreed to "right" size my leaning post. I had 1.5" taken off height.
Perhaps, my post was not pre-fab like yours.

posted 03-08-2002 01:54 AM ET (US)         

While I'm at it, I think I should add my $0.02 re: ordering a bare hull. These hulls are allover the west coast and are really visible at major fishing destinations like Campbell River. They are great boats but IMO customized bare boats never hold their value as well as factory orders (I think this to be true with cars and most other items too).

Our boat has a G17 console and an older Outrage leaning post laid up with commercial laminates. (Both where moved forward to give us more fishing room behind the leaning post.) The dealer removed the bait well (I believe it’s 25 gal, currently collecting dust) and installed a Pompanette tackle box. All items where installed by Whaler or the Whaler dealer, and IMO regardless of the price - it’s the way to go.

The best advice I can give is to talk to the guys at CPD.

Louie

posted 03-08-2002 03:35 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for your suggestions. The storage issue, for me, is a critical one. I am a fanatic about maintenance, and I want my boats kept indoors. I am ordering the boat with the "classic" Montauk console. I think that this console is shorter in stature than the G 17 console. It should fit in the 8' high garage.

I need more help on the trailer...I realize that I need a full set of keel rollers with bunks to the sides for lateral stability...any suggestions? I am investigating the Continental (as recommended by lhg). Do any of the 22'owners have additional bunks immediately adjacent to the rollers on their trailers. My concern is missing the rollers and gouging the bow of the boat on the end caps for the rollers. It will make the drive-on experience a bit less intimidating.

posted 03-08-2002 10:34 AM ET (US)            

My trailer (EZ-Loader) was born as a bunk trailer and I have added two cross members to allow for 8 rollers - two at each cross member. It has four bunks, each 10' long that are suppoerted from the original 2 cross members; the outer bunk on each side comes up almost snug to the inside edge of the sponson at the outer edge of the bottom. The result is the outer bunks help position the boat where it belongs as it is loaded on the trailer. When it's loaded, it's either exactly centered or one of the sponsons is obviously riding up on a bunk. The trick is to not have the trailer backed too far into the water and use the winch; it loads centered automatically that way. The inner bunks are just about 24" o.c. in from the outer bunks. Of course the roller height is adjusted so the bunks are only providing stability with a minimum of support. The bunks do protect the hull from being gouged by the roller brackets in a failed attempt to center the bow when approaching the trailer from the water, and you should contemplate maximum width rollers (12" I think) for the same reason.

vdbgroup-

When I ordered my leaning post from Birdsall, I didn't know I wanted to shorten it. In fact, what I didn't know about whalers in general at that time was so great that when Bob Birdsall asked if I didn't want the gelcoat around the rod holders to match the desert tan of my Whaler, I said, "My Whaler is white, so that's the color I want the gelcoat to be." Of course, when the leaning post arrived I quickly found out that Bob knew a lot more about the color of a '92 Outrage 22' than I did. I ultimately re-did the gelcoat on the leaning post in desert tan to match the real color of the boat, and sent the seat and backrest to Dave's Upholstery for BW upholstery. I *think* Birdsall can do Whaler upholstery, too. I'm not sure.

I'd liked to have had a Whale Tail grab bar, too, but I didn't want to give up 4" of seat width to do it. My seat width is 38" and the grab bar isn't any wider than the seat, but it is more than very functional as it is.

posted 03-08-2002 04:53 PM ET (US)         

I would just like to second lgh's recommendation on a full transom option. This would make this a unique boat (very rare from CPD) but has great performance benefits and much better use of space (2 extra feet for free), faster, quieter, more storage etc...

When I started my search for a used outrage, full transom was item #1, everything else you can fix…

Pete

posted 03-08-2002 05:00 PM ET (US)         

I would buy an 8'-6" wide v frame trailer, and I think you'll be all right if you don't raise the console.

There is a picture of my Continental trailer on one of the early Cetacea pages. I don't think inner bunks are necessary, and just make it harder to clean the hull bottom. I don't have them on either one of my trailers, and BW used to say they're not necessary. Properly installed and fairly rigid guide-ons will prevent most drive-on problems. As for driving on, I always have someone "lead" the boat bow onto the the first roller by hand, then I power it up the rollers as the other person takes up the winch position. You can't power load a Whaler on a keel roller trailer by yourself. Someone has to secure the winch strap before you shut down the engine, or it will roll back into the drink.

posted 03-08-2002 07:39 PM ET (US)         

Per the Guardian in beige and stainless, CPD will make them with 1” stainless rails and all. There are currently about a dozen CPD 22’s (in beige and stainless) working at the West Coast Fishing Club in the Queen Charlotte Islands. I will try to get some photos scanned and email them to Jim. BTW, I love the old outrage look I just wanted something different.

Louie

posted 03-12-2002 02:01 AM ET (US)         

It is my understanding that I can order the console in whatever color I so choose. I'll confirm that later today.

posted 03-13-2002 02:43 AM ET (US)         

Any further suggestions? I'm planning on ordering in the next week or two!

posted 03-14-2002 02:37 AM ET (US)         

I've taken the information you have all provided and am formulating my proposal now. The desk in my home office is covered with accessory brochures, CPD brochures, price sheets, etc., etc. It is quite interesting!

The only difficulty I am encountering is with regards to the trailer. The factory estimates between two and four months from order to completion, so I have the luxury of time to find one that's appropriate for my needs.

When I finalize everything, I'll outline my specifications in detail. There are still some things I'm investigating.

posted 03-18-2002 07:31 PM ET (US)         

I'm sure someone at the factory can dig out the information on who the supplier was, and I'm sure it was local. I believe the move to Edgewater was why they discontinued the CMI rails.

posted 03-21-2002 06:43 AM ET (US)         

The 24' Justice, although not a "classic" Whaler, looks TREMENDOUS next to the other boats. The interesting thing is that, with more standard equipment, the Justice 24' costs almost the same amount as the 22'Guardian and significantly less than the 25' Guardian.

What are your opinions? I haven't finalized anything yet, and I realize that this will create a significant storage issue for me.

If the other participants approve of the 24' Guardian proposal, is single (250HP Yamaha Ox 66 EFI) or twin (150HP or 200HP Yamaha HPDI) power suggested.

Here we go again...let's have the comments and suggestions before I plunk down my cash!

posted 03-22-2002 02:54 AM ET (US)         

Just remember, in 1998 the USGC passed up this newer model and opted for the older 25 Gaurdians (Raiders) which we have all been seeing on harbor patrol since 9/11. But nevertheless it is a very nice looking hull. There are plenty of used 24 Outrages for sale around FL. Maybe you could find one of those a lot cheaper. They don't sell real well, I heard. But just remember, this a prejudiced opinion as a 25 owner!

posted 03-27-2002 05:18 AM ET (US)         

http://www.sis.ch/sentinelle/bateaux.html

Scroll down the page, and there are about ten or so images there.

posted 04-13-2002 07:24 AM ET (US)         

The only feedback I got on the 22' Guardian with twin 90HP Honda engines is: "They're [the Honda's] too heavy; that boat probably doesn't perform all that good [well]."

posted 04-25-2002 02:21 PM ET (US)         

I know that this thread has wandered quite a bit since its inception a few months ago, BUT I'm finally getting to the final stages of my deliberations.

Joseph Evans's boat looks quite impressive based on the photos (about 30!) he sent me. Another 1997 24' Outrage just went up for sale locally. Then there is the new 24' Justice...

Understanding that all of these boats are quite a departure from the 22'Guardian (which is a close second right now), what are your thoughts?

Any input, as always, both positive and negative, is greatly appreciated.

posted 05-10-2002 03:31 AM ET (US)         

Thank you for your insights. If you'd like, you are welcomed to e-mail me personally.

posted 05-11-2002 02:51 PM ET (US)         

Your comment about resell value seems a little skewed. I ordered my CPD boat in 98, it took 8 months to get it in the driveway, and I had 6 offers to sell it the first week. To this day, I have 3 guys who want it. All offers are serious, and all exceed my purchase price.

Take a close look at most of the classic Whaler owners, and you will find a bunch of people who know what they want, and tend to keep their boats for many years. Most Classic Whaler hulls have demanded one of the highest resell values on the market! Having said that, no boat is a good investment – a CPD boat however will most likely outlive its recreational owner.

Paul: It’s too bad the Hum Vee isn’t available to the general public. Apparently they are all destroyed vs auctioned because they are not street legal :(

A Hummer just wouldn’t be the same :)

posted 05-11-2002 04:06 PM ET (US)         

I mean no offense to the "post classic" Whaler owners, but I will not even consider one of the new Whalers.

I spoke at length today with the local law enforcement officers--one on a Justice 21, and one on an (older) Guardian 20. I have met and spoken with them before in a professional capacity, and their knowlege of Boston Whalers is extensive. (No, they didn't ticket me! They were part of the rescue team who brought me victims of a boating accident.)

Even the Justice, with its reportedly smoother ride and wider beam, is going to be scratched from my list. The Guardian is the only way to go after talking to these guys.

I have submitted my "wish list" to the dealer, and I'm waiting to see how the figures look. I'm also ready with some Tums, as I anticipate a good case of indigestion.

I'm on to the Guardian. The Justice has been dropped. I'll keep everyone informed.