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Author Topic:   CPD: 22 vs. 25 Guardian
PMUCCIOLO posted 02-21-2002 05:43 AM ET (US)   Profile for PMUCCIOLO  
I am going to expand my fleet, but, prior to plunking down my cash, I'd like some input:

I am considering a 22' Guardian with single 200 or 225 power. I prefer the "old" (now with DFI systems and EFI four strokes available) EFI engines. I'm not going to log many hours on the boat, either, so the increase in cost for these systems for their reported fuel/oil savings I can't justify. I would like to put the Montauk (the "classic" one) console in it and either the Montauk (the "classic" again) reversible pilot seat or dual pedestal seats. Are trim tabs necessary for mainly inshore and occasional light offshore use? Where should the battery and oil reservoir be installed? I have seen them in the rear well in battery boxes. Is that recommended?

The 25 is a different situation. Is a single 250 adequate, or should I opt for twin power. I'm putting the motor(s), regardless of the boat size on the transom, as the Whaler Drive upgrade on the Guardian is over $10K (ouch!). Do I need trim tabs with the 25? Is the standard fuel tank (141 gallons) adequate, or should I consider upgrading to the 177 gallon option? The "Super Console" is not available, but a host of "Guardian" consoles are. Has anyone had experience with these, or should I stick with the Montauk setup as I propose for the 22. (I'd like to be able to sit down and see through the windshield in calm conditions.)

The last few questions for this post: I know that I need a trailer with full keel rollers. What brands are recommended for salt water? Do I need brakes on one or both axles? Will my Toyota Tundra (with a 7200# towing capacity) be adequate for the steep ramps where I live in Daytona Beach, Florida?

I look forward to your assistance and advice!
Thank you, in advance.
Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 02-21-2002 05:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
One last thing...canvas. I'm going to get a bimini top on either boat, as the storage bays available to me locally cannot accomodate a "T" top. Any suggestions regarding a bow dodger with drop curtains?

Thanks again!
Paul

Buckda posted 02-21-2002 02:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
PMU...

Both a 22 and a 25? That's quite an expansion!

We have a 22 guardian with a 225 Yamaha. Trim tabs might be recommended due to the "lean" in the boat from prop torque. I suggest you find someone in your area with a 22 outrage or guardian with a similar set up and go for a test ride. See what you think. There should be plenty of mid to late 80's vintage whalers (outrages) down there to give you an idea on how the new Guardian will ride.

225 is plenty of power, so if you have a significant cost savings with the 200, and don't mind having fewer horses, you'd be fine with that engine. Static trim with the 225 is slightly "bow up" due to the weight on the transom.

Battery on ours is located in the console to keep it out of the elements.

Outrageman might have even more insights - he has an outrage featured in Cetecea.

peteinsf posted 02-21-2002 07:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    
With a single 200HP my 25OR maxs out at 33-34 MPH

The main drawback is that I currently need to be a 4000RPM to keep a plane. A single 250 would be better but twin 150's (good price/performance) or 200's (like lgh's) would have you on a plane at lower revs and the 200's would get into 55+MPH speed range. How fast do you want to go?

David Ratusnik posted 02-21-2002 08:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
PMU- I note Buck's post re a ride. You are in Daytona and I am on weekends on Merritt Island. I run a '86 22' OR with 225. Have new tabs, soooo if you want a ride contact me via e mail. Pic 45 photo log. Maybe I can help a little. David
PMUCCIOLO posted 02-22-2002 01:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thanks for the information. I am interested in a top speed (for either boat) in the mid to low 40's.
Paul
peteinsf posted 02-22-2002 02:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    
For the 25/WD I would think twin 150's would get you low 40's easy!
PMUCCIOLO posted 02-27-2002 03:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I have some questions regarding power. I am not going to get a Whaler Drive, because I cannot justify spending an extra $10 for it. Yamaha, unless HPDI's, does not offer counter rotation for a twin installation with carb or EFI engines. I don't know if Bombardier/Johnson offers the 150's with counter rotation. The FICHT engines are not a consideration for me until they've been out for a few years. Does Mercury offer EFI or carb 150's with counter rotation?

For a single, larger powerplant, any news on the Yamaha 275 HPDI? Will Bombardier/Johnson be making the 200 or 225 carb engines? Does Mercury offer the 225 with EFI or carb?

I'm wary of the DFI engines, in addition to the fact that my and my brother's relative infrequent use of the boat makes the increased cost difficult to justify.

Your input will be greatly appreciated!
Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 02-27-2002 03:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
ERRATA: The Whaler Drive is not $10, it is $10,000! Sorry!
David Ratusnik posted 02-27-2002 07:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
PMU- With regard to the 22' issue, why not pick up a 225/200 with old fashion carbs. I understand a number in the box are still available. Or, better yet from a $$$'s perspective, pick up a well maintained, used 225. My thoughts are based on your statement that the boat will experience light use. My .03 David
PMUCCIOLO posted 02-28-2002 02:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I would prefer a new engine, but your suggestion to find a carbureted engine is a sound one. Does anyone have suggestions on where to look?
Thanks,
Paul
David Ratusnik posted 02-28-2002 01:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
PMU Look toward the back of recent BoatTrader mags, South FLA Edition. They have a section carrying various used but often new items for boats. I've seen "in the box" engines (with warranty) advertised there. David
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-05-2002 02:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I have narrowed down the options to the 22'Guardian with a single 200HP engine. Are there any further suggestions re: options?
Thanks!
Paul
David Ratusnik posted 03-05-2002 09:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Ratusnik  Send Email to David Ratusnik     
PMU- A few of us have been knocking around the powering options on 22' OR's in the Performance Section. See YAMAHA ADVICE in that section. David
reelescape1 posted 03-05-2002 06:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for reelescape1  Send Email to reelescape1     
I'm repowering my 22' OR right now with a 225 Yammie 2 stroke. The CPD weighs more, but I'm not sure of the HP rating. Mine is 240 HP, notched transom. The WD gets you 300 HP. Don't underpower!!!
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-06-2002 03:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thanks for the input! Please keep me informed as to the boat's performance (and both static and dynamic trim angles) with the 4S Yamaha.
Paul
Tom W Clark posted 03-06-2002 11:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Paul,

I cannot really recommend anything for your new CPD 22 as that would suggest I have some experience with such a boat. I do not. However, allow me this opportunity to put myself in your shoes and imagine what I personally might consider.

If I were to have CPD build me a 22í boat I would generally want things done so as to make it somewhat like a no longer available Classic 22í. To this end I would order the hull in Desert Tan in and out.

I would want the Classic Montauk console as well as the Reversible Pilotís Seat. The RPS is only made with a fiberglass seat back so I would build a teak one or perhaps offer to trade the glass one to someone with a teak one.

I would also make teak console doors and measure the required openings for them and tell CPD to NOT install plastic doors but merely cut the holes to the dimensions you supply. (they will need to cut some hole in order to rig the console.)

Mostly I would delete standard features from the CPD boat. I would delete all rails and have a bow rail made from stainless. I would delete the black cleats CPD uses and get the (still available) Marinium cleats as well as the Marinium Hawse Holes from Wilcox Crittenden, again mounting them as they were on the Classics.

I would request that CPD not install the flappered scuppers and use conventional drain tubes instead. This will eliminate the annoying leakage that is endemic to these devices.

I would ask them to use white or off-white deck plates instead of the black ones if such items are available. I would have them delete the plastic sump cover and make one myself from teak plywood.

I would let CPD know that I intend to put the batteries in the stern of the boat and thus the wiring will need to be routed with this in mind.

I would delete the black nav lights, though have the wiring run for them. I would buy the best I could find in stainless or chrome over bronze (the excellent Marinium lights by Wilcox Crittenden are no longer available).

I would have Mills Canvas make whatever canvas system I desired and I would certainly have them make a mooring cover for the boat.

I would install nothing but Leeís rod holders in the locations I want them.

I would, of course, buy some Igloo coolers and have ďWhaler StyleĒ cushions made for them by Daveís or WhalerTim.

lhg posted 03-06-2002 08:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Can't resist this one! Here are a few other suggestions for you to consider, adding to Tom's suggestions.

I recently saw a new 22 Guardian in Whaler's current white color, like your new Alert. It looked very nice. Use the 1" black stripe under the gunwales, and the large red Whaler logos on the side, just like the Classics. I mention this white color since I would imagine that the console you select will only be available in recreational white, such as the Montauk console (I wonder how much longer they're going to be making that, now that the boat is discontinued). If you're going to use this console in a 22, consider raising it up 4", since in a 22 or 25 that console looks "squat" in such a large boat. I would order it without console rail, and get the "real" rail from CMI. The RPS should also be raised the same, or even 6" if you want to store a 72 Qt Igloo seat under it. I would also look at the brand new 18 Dauntless console. It's quite nice and might look great in a 22. The Standard Guardian console is OK, but doesn't have a console rail, which is important to have. That would be my last choice.

The bow floor is an area of concern in a 22 or 25 Guardian, since the recreational system of hatches and wells seem to be covered up by a one-piece floor panel. The hull mold still has these wells, so inquire into what they can do for you to make these accessible again. Maybe custom well covers or something. Don't know if the original recreational hatch covers are still available for a Guardian.

For seating, you might want to consider the "Kingfish solution", a Birdsall leaning post/high seat, in Whaler upholstery. Very nice. Incidentally, look at the photos of Kingfish's super-outfitted 22 Outrage. One of the finest I've seen!

Try and get a bow pulpit furnished, or if they can't do it, maybe a glass after market one can be installed. I agree with Tom W that I would basically order a bare hull with only console installed and pre-wired (specify what additional electrical needs you will have, electronic, etc.), and fit it out with recreational seats, coolers, hardware and rails, readily available from a good SS shop.
Rails should be 1". Or you can order the CMI bow and side rails like were used pre 1989. Be sure the CPD puts the screw pads in the gunwales where necessary.

I'd stay with the 77 gallon tank, and see if they can leave the rear baitwell and cover, even if unplumbed, which you can do yourself.

There are two extra cost transom options to consider. I would definitely select one or the other. If you want to stay with the notched transom, order it in the 30" version instead of the normal 25" version. Remember this hull was designed before the advent of twin 25" engines. The 30" transom (5" higher than normal) is almost a must for these boats, and will keep water out. It will also put the engine powerheads up 5", whether you go single or twin. Other option is to order a blank full transom, which then allows installation of an Armstrong bracket, a $2500 extra. This is better than the Whaler Drive anyway. A bracket should also be installed for a single 30" or twin 25" engines. If all of these factory transom options are too pricey, then I would buy the standard transom and mount the engine(s) on transom jack brackets lifted up 5", so the longer shaft engines can still be used. The hydraulically operated CMC jack is a surprisingly good deal at $600.

Order the factory installed raw water washdown. It's difficult to install later.

Use an Igloo 162 Qt cooler seat in front of the console. It's great for storage, seats two comfortably and high, and one can stretch out on it for sunning or a nap.

For HP, I'd consider the twin 150's that the Whaler Drive model is rated for if a full transom is ordered. Everybody makes these in CR versions. A pair of 115's would also be nice. If you want a big single, look at the Merc 225 EFI, even though you hate Mercurys!
It's the strongest 225 on the market, period.
But I'd go for twins on such a special, custom boat.

For a trailer, you're lucky to be in FL, take a look at the Continental keel roller brand.
Cantway Trailer in Delray Beach sells them fro great prices.

Good luck with your project!

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-07-2002 06:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thank you, Tom W. Clark and lhg, for your assistance! I shall keep you posted (excuse the pun!).
Paul
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-07-2002 06:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
lgh: I missed one of your statements. I don't hate Mercury engines! I'm open to anything, as long as I don't get stuck, as my cohorts have. If they prove reliable (as your EFI's have), I'll buy them. I am concerned about the apparent "cheapening" of the NEW engines. I'm open to any and all suggestions, comments, support, or (even though I hate to say it) malaise over engines. If anyone has input, let's have it!

Thanks,
Paul

kingfish posted 03-07-2002 09:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
You rang???

Thanks again, Larry for the generous compliments re: Outre'.

I can't add much to Tom's and Larry's remarks (in fact probably wouldn't have thought of half of them), but here's a couple things-

I love the Birdsall leaning post/seat. It is the larger model with a greater dimension from front to back than the standard, and consequently not only is there more horizontal surface on which to park your fanny, but a larger storage bin underneath as well. I use the backrest and sit up on top of the l/p most of the time. Backrest legs slide into rocket launchers behind the seat, or the legs fold and it stows in the bin under the seat. I lowered the l/p by about 2 1/2" so the bottom of the storage bin just clears an Igloo 94 qt. cooler, and I raised the center console by about 4". I'm a short guy (5'-6") so that wouldn't necessarily work for everyone, but that puts the leaning pad right where I want it, and my eyes are just about the same level whether I'm standing or sitting, with the windshield providing real protection in both conditions.

I'd also second the 77 gallon tank unless you are a hardcore canyon fisherman, and maximum fuel supply is an absolute primary consideration. A single 225 will get 2-2 1/2 mpg under any conditions and I am hearing (haven't confirmed it in the first person yet) that some 225's are getting as much as 4 mpg, with a lot of higher cruising speeds. So you're looking at 150 miles range hands down, and the space in the deck where the larger tank would have been, between the end of the 77 gal tank and the splashwell, can be utilized for bait tank/livewell/storage.

Good luck-

kingfish

peteinsf posted 03-07-2002 11:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    
Kingfish,

I was searching around birdsall's web site (it sounds you have a cool setup) and I can not find a deeper model. From your description it look like their "Leaning Post Seat #14100" is close to yours.

Did you lower the l/p your self or order it that way?

THX, Pete

www.birdsallmarine.com

kingfish posted 03-07-2002 11:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Pete-

Birdsall and I apparently have a difference of opinion over the usages of the words, "leaning post" and "rocket launcher"; I suppose I'm probably the one that's wrong...

My unit is a Birdsall "Standard Rocket Launcher" with a 10" tray. I wanted as much width as I could comfortably use in my 22' without impeding traffic on either side, and the 38" width works perfectly. I ordered the folding back rest and folding foot rest and had them add a rear grab rail around the rod holders that did not add to the width of the seat. I was concerned that their "whale-tail" grab rail, which is really nice, would impede the traffic route too much if I was in a hurry (fish on!).

I had a local sheet metal shop shorten the legs and heli-arc them to a 1/4"x4"x16" anodized aluminum plate that I drilled for the original BW leaning post screw holes already in the deck. If you could determine the height you wanted the seat (i.e., bottom of the tray clears the padded top of a 94 qt cooler by 1/2"), and the size and location of the base plates (if you didn't want to use Birdsalls standard 4" dia. round base plates), the slick thing would be to have Birdsall do the shortening, if they'd agree to. Using the same rod and tecniques right there in the same shop might improve the appearance.

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-07-2002 11:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thank you for your input!

I'm working now on the storage and trailer situation. Will the 22 with the classic Montauk console fit in a garage with an 8' high door? My dealer is looking into this for me as well, but I wondered if anyone of you stores your 22' in this manner. The garage is 30' deep and 10' wide...the only concern is the height. Any thoughts?

Paul

vdbgroup posted 03-08-2002 12:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for vdbgroup  Send Email to vdbgroup     
Kingfish,

FYI, Birdsall agreed to "right" size my leaning post. I had 1.5" taken off height.
Perhaps, my post was not pre-fab like yours.

I like the "Whale Tail" as you have something to hold on to when you are sitting and also adds extra safety measure. But it adds extra 3" on each side to post width. I would rather go small with the post, mine is 30" cushion, and handles two persons fine when leaning. For a 22' I think a 34" with Whale Tail would be just right.

Louie Kokinis posted 03-08-2002 01:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
My garage is 14'X 35' ft with a 7'10" door. The original quote to build it was reasonable till my wife got involved: ( , after all was said and done it cost me over 6X more! but the Whaler is safe :)

While I'm at it, I think I should add my $0.02 re: ordering a bare hull. These hulls are allover the west coast and are really visible at major fishing destinations like Campbell River. They are great boats but IMO customized bare boats never hold their value as well as factory orders (I think this to be true with cars and most other items too).

Our boat has a G17 console and an older Outrage leaning post laid up with commercial laminates. (Both where moved forward to give us more fishing room behind the leaning post.) The dealer removed the bait well (I believe itís 25 gal, currently collecting dust) and installed a Pompanette tackle box. All items where installed by Whaler or the Whaler dealer, and IMO regardless of the price - itís the way to go.

The best advice I can give is to talk to the guys at CPD.

Louie

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-08-2002 03:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Louie,

Thank you for your suggestions. The storage issue, for me, is a critical one. I am a fanatic about maintenance, and I want my boats kept indoors. I am ordering the boat with the "classic" Montauk console. I think that this console is shorter in stature than the G 17 console. It should fit in the 8' high garage.

I need more help on the trailer...I realize that I need a full set of keel rollers with bunks to the sides for lateral stability...any suggestions? I am investigating the Continental (as recommended by lhg). Do any of the 22'owners have additional bunks immediately adjacent to the rollers on their trailers. My concern is missing the rollers and gouging the bow of the boat on the end caps for the rollers. It will make the drive-on experience a bit less intimidating.

Thanks,
Paul

kingfish posted 03-08-2002 10:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Paul-

My trailer (EZ-Loader) was born as a bunk trailer and I have added two cross members to allow for 8 rollers - two at each cross member. It has four bunks, each 10' long that are suppoerted from the original 2 cross members; the outer bunk on each side comes up almost snug to the inside edge of the sponson at the outer edge of the bottom. The result is the outer bunks help position the boat where it belongs as it is loaded on the trailer. When it's loaded, it's either exactly centered or one of the sponsons is obviously riding up on a bunk. The trick is to not have the trailer backed too far into the water and use the winch; it loads centered automatically that way. The inner bunks are just about 24" o.c. in from the outer bunks. Of course the roller height is adjusted so the bunks are only providing stability with a minimum of support. The bunks do protect the hull from being gouged by the roller brackets in a failed attempt to center the bow when approaching the trailer from the water, and you should contemplate maximum width rollers (12" I think) for the same reason.

vdbgroup-

When I ordered my leaning post from Birdsall, I didn't know I wanted to shorten it. In fact, what I didn't know about whalers in general at that time was so great that when Bob Birdsall asked if I didn't want the gelcoat around the rod holders to match the desert tan of my Whaler, I said, "My Whaler is white, so that's the color I want the gelcoat to be." Of course, when the leaning post arrived I quickly found out that Bob knew a lot more about the color of a '92 Outrage 22' than I did. I ultimately re-did the gelcoat on the leaning post in desert tan to match the real color of the boat, and sent the seat and backrest to Dave's Upholstery for BW upholstery. I *think* Birdsall can do Whaler upholstery, too. I'm not sure.

I'd liked to have had a Whale Tail grab bar, too, but I didn't want to give up 4" of seat width to do it. My seat width is 38" and the grab bar isn't any wider than the seat, but it is more than very functional as it is.

John

peteinsf posted 03-08-2002 04:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    
Paul,

I would just like to second lgh's recommendation on a full transom option. This would make this a unique boat (very rare from CPD) but has great performance benefits and much better use of space (2 extra feet for free), faster, quieter, more storage etc...

When I started my search for a used outrage, full transom was item #1, everything else you can fixÖ

Pete


lhg posted 03-08-2002 05:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
My 18 Outrage, on a keel roller V-frame trailer, and console raised 4", JUST fits under an 8' door. But I think if you do it right, you can get a 22 under same.

I would buy an 8'-6" wide v frame trailer, and I think you'll be all right if you don't raise the console.

There is a picture of my Continental trailer on one of the early Cetacea pages. I don't think inner bunks are necessary, and just make it harder to clean the hull bottom. I don't have them on either one of my trailers, and BW used to say they're not necessary. Properly installed and fairly rigid guide-ons will prevent most drive-on problems. As for driving on, I always have someone "lead" the boat bow onto the the first roller by hand, then I power it up the rollers as the other person takes up the winch position. You can't power load a Whaler on a keel roller trailer by yourself. Someone has to secure the winch strap before you shut down the engine, or it will roll back into the drink.

Louie, I agree that it's wise to keep a Whaler all-factory, like we have both done. But here we differ on how one would set up a new Guardian. Instead of the CPD look like you wanted, particularly appropriate with the grey color, I would buy a CPD to duplicate a "recreational" late 80's boat, similar to what I have, including hull color. That's what I meant regarding a bare hull & console purchase. I would go to Whaler's previous suppliers and buy the same things, such as a CMI rails or duplicate 1" welded rails, Mills canvas, Dave's Upholstery, etc. That seems to be the way Paul is heading, by selecting a Montauk console, etc. Incidentally, I'm anxious to get a ride in your boat this summer! My trip plans are still on.

Louie Kokinis posted 03-08-2002 07:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Larry: I canít wait to meet up with you and are welcome aboard (driving or riding) anytime! Iíve got you in my daytimer for July 4th.

Per the Guardian in beige and stainless, CPD will make them with 1Ē stainless rails and all. There are currently about a dozen CPD 22ís (in beige and stainless) working at the West Coast Fishing Club in the Queen Charlotte Islands. I will try to get some photos scanned and email them to Jim. BTW, I love the old outrage look I just wanted something different.

Louie


PMUCCIOLO posted 03-11-2002 06:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I just got word that the classic Montauk console and RPS are still available. That is a tremendous relief, as I was concerned about the availability of these in light of the new Montauk.

Paul

Tom W Clark posted 03-11-2002 10:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Paul,

If you get a Montauk console, will it be one pulled from the recreational line's production or will it be made for you? My question really is: will it be white or could you specify, if you wanted to, what color of gelcoat it is to be?

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-12-2002 02:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Tom,

It is my understanding that I can order the console in whatever color I so choose. I'll confirm that later today.

Thanks,
Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-13-2002 02:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
The console is available in the same color in which the hull (interior or exterior) is ordered.

Any further suggestions? I'm planning on ordering in the next week or two!

Thanks, everyone, for your help thus far!
Paul

Tom W Clark posted 03-14-2002 01:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Paul,

I'm very interested in this process you're going through. Could you tell us exactly what, at this point, you are thinking of ordering. I mean precisely what color, fittings, options and deletions, ect. You know, how do you envision your new boat?

peteinsf posted 03-14-2002 01:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for peteinsf    
Gee Tom, living thru Paul a bit here (grin)
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-14-2002 02:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I, assuming everything proceeds as planned, anticipate meeting with the CPD representatives (the factory is about twenty minutes south of me) in the next week or two to finalize things.

I've taken the information you have all provided and am formulating my proposal now. The desk in my home office is covered with accessory brochures, CPD brochures, price sheets, etc., etc. It is quite interesting!

The only difficulty I am encountering is with regards to the trailer. The factory estimates between two and four months from order to completion, so I have the luxury of time to find one that's appropriate for my needs.

When I finalize everything, I'll outline my specifications in detail. There are still some things I'm investigating.

Thanks,
Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-14-2002 03:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
The only other question I have is with regards to the bow rail. Does anone have suggestions with regards to the supplier of the SS rail? This is the last bit of information I shall require.

Thanks again!
Paul

lhg posted 03-18-2002 07:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Paul: My '89 25 Outrage was made in Edgewater, and this was the year they switched to the one piece 1" welded bow rail.

I'm sure someone at the factory can dig out the information on who the supplier was, and I'm sure it was local. I believe the move to Edgewater was why they discontinued the CMI rails.

I hope you're giving serious consideration to a bow pulpit, and this will effect the rail design.

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-21-2002 06:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Ok, now I'm going to throw a wrench into the works! After a recent visit to the CPD facility, three hulls were side-by-side: a 22'Guardian, a 25' Guardian, and a 24' Justice. It was disturbing, and my level of indecision has escalated.

The 24' Justice, although not a "classic" Whaler, looks TREMENDOUS next to the other boats. The interesting thing is that, with more standard equipment, the Justice 24' costs almost the same amount as the 22'Guardian and significantly less than the 25' Guardian.

What are your opinions? I haven't finalized anything yet, and I realize that this will create a significant storage issue for me.

If the other participants approve of the 24' Guardian proposal, is single (250HP Yamaha Ox 66 EFI) or twin (150HP or 200HP Yamaha HPDI) power suggested.

Here we go again...let's have the comments and suggestions before I plunk down my cash!

Thanks,
Paul

lhg posted 03-22-2002 02:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
The Justice is a 24 Outrage hull, circa 1994-1997, and it was VanLancker's replacement for the 25 Outrage. It began life as as the 23 Walkaround, a boat which some here have not liked the performance characterics. There is much discussion on the comparisons between this and 25 Outrage, if you're willing to search way back in the Forum.

Just remember, in 1998 the USGC passed up this newer model and opted for the older 25 Gaurdians (Raiders) which we have all been seeing on harbor patrol since 9/11. But nevertheless it is a very nice looking hull. There are plenty of used 24 Outrages for sale around FL. Maybe you could find one of those a lot cheaper. They don't sell real well, I heard. But just remember, this a prejudiced opinion as a 25 owner!

But a Whaler Dealer with a lot of experience in both hulls told me the 24 will ride smoother into a sharp chop, but is nowhere near as stable as the 25 laterally in offshore conditions. It also has a narrow transom, as the full beam is not carried to stern as Dougherty did in his designs. That has an adverse effect on the following sea behavior. I would recommend twin 200's for the boat.

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-23-2002 05:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thanks, Larry, for the input. I have been searching for some time...do you happen to recall where the earlier post is on the topic of the 24?

Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-27-2002 05:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I suggest that you fans of the 22' Guardian take a look at this:

http://www.sis.ch/sentinelle/bateaux.html

Scroll down the page, and there are about ten or so images there.

Paul

tabasco posted 03-27-2002 07:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for tabasco  Send Email to tabasco     
Your link does not work for me.........says not found
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-28-2002 12:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I don't know why this doesn't work. I'm not computer literate, however. I typed in "Boston Whaler Guardian" under Google, and this came up under a French site. Perhaps that helps.

Paul

Tom W Clark posted 03-28-2002 12:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
http://www.sisl.ch/sentinelle/bateaux.html
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-28-2002 01:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Thanks, Tom!
Paul
dgp posted 03-28-2002 07:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for dgp  Send Email to dgp     
It was interesting to note that that French boat had a pair of 90HP Hondas on it. I wonder how it performs? The listed weight it 2535#. Paul, you might ask CPD directly if they have any performance data on that boat.
PMUCCIOLO posted 03-31-2002 01:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I'll see what information they have with regards to this.

Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 04-13-2002 07:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
dgp,

The only feedback I got on the 22' Guardian with twin 90HP Honda engines is: "They're [the Honda's] too heavy; that boat probably doesn't perform all that good [well]."

Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 04-13-2002 07:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
I know that this is quite a departure from the 22' and 25' classic hulls I'm considering...BUT, under "Marketplace:" Has anyone looked at the 24' Outrage that Joseph Evans has listed? Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Paul

PMUCCIOLO posted 04-25-2002 02:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Gentlemen,

I know that this thread has wandered quite a bit since its inception a few months ago, BUT I'm finally getting to the final stages of my deliberations.

Joseph Evans's boat looks quite impressive based on the photos (about 30!) he sent me. Another 1997 24' Outrage just went up for sale locally. Then there is the new 24' Justice...

Understanding that all of these boats are quite a departure from the 22'Guardian (which is a close second right now), what are your thoughts?

Any input, as always, both positive and negative, is greatly appreciated.

Paul

dgp posted 04-25-2002 06:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgp  Send Email to dgp     
If you have the bucks then get the Guardian custom built the way you want it. Just make sure the dealer has experience working with the CPD.
PMUCCIOLO posted 05-09-2002 12:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
The 24 Justice it is! I'm in the process of deciding between twin 200HP HPDI's and a single 250HP Yamaha HPDI...the saga continues!

Paul

Louie Kokinis posted 05-09-2002 06:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Paul, IMO the 24 is too much boat for a single.

Louie

Fishcop posted 05-09-2002 08:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Fishcop  Send Email to Fishcop     
Paul,
You have gotten some excellent advise here.
I am buying a older 25 OR with a new motor and have questioned myself on the performance of a single vs. twin power.
Here is my two cents.
I work ( if you can call it that!) on boats almost every day. I patrol the S.F Bay and surrounding Delta area. I also work off shore and spend alot of time on various styles of whalers (17' - 22'). I have found that the ride and stability of the Justice line is alot easier on the knees than that of the Guardian line. The Justice has larger fuel cell and is wider than the Guardian. The power we must use in CA is now regulated by the EPA. We use a single 200 optimax on the 21' Justice and find it enough HP to handle any job. The 24 Justice has twin 150's and uses alot more fuel (extra drag,weight). The Guardians in use have single 175 to 225 and have less range than the Justice boats.
The gelcoat on the Justice boats are standard white exterior with haze grey interior. I prefer this because the deck does not reflect the sun and has less fatigue on the eyes. All the boats have many, many hours and stand the test of time.
I myself, prefer the older style outrage/guardian hull and have decided to buy that style for my personal use.
Also, I must pay for the fuel on my boat and at $2.95 a gallon dockside, a single Optimax is going to work just fine.
As I said, just my two cents.
Fishcop.
PMUCCIOLO posted 05-10-2002 03:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Fishcop,

Thank you for your insights. If you'd like, you are welcomed to e-mail me personally.

Paul

whalerfran posted 05-10-2002 06:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for whalerfran    
Paul, Do you drive a Ford Crown Victoria that is equipped like a police cruiser? Or maybe you're one of those SUV offroad owners who never stray from a paved highway? If not, why in blazes would you buy a commercial product for recreational boating? Do you intend to install a flashing blue light on it to scare the other boaters for kicks? Face it. A CPD Whaler is just not the same as a classic. You will never be able to sell the boat without taking a huge hit. If a used classic or the new recreational Whalers are not acceptable, try another brand, maybe a Grady or a Pursuit.
PMUCCIOLO posted 05-11-2002 08:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
whalerfran,

Perhaps I should consider a HumVee to tow the CPD Whaler!

Louie Kokinis posted 05-11-2002 02:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Louie Kokinis    
Whalerfran: Why so bitter? I own one, there is no Crown Vic in the driveway, and I didnít even consider a blue light (I even opted not to order machine gun mounts). They are a semi custom overbuilt version of the classic, which IMO is the only choice for some of us who donít want to compromise by purchasing a lower quality boat.

Your comment about resell value seems a little skewed. I ordered my CPD boat in 98, it took 8 months to get it in the driveway, and I had 6 offers to sell it the first week. To this day, I have 3 guys who want it. All offers are serious, and all exceed my purchase price.

Take a close look at most of the classic Whaler owners, and you will find a bunch of people who know what they want, and tend to keep their boats for many years. Most Classic Whaler hulls have demanded one of the highest resell values on the market! Having said that, no boat is a good investment Ė a CPD boat however will most likely outlive its recreational owner.

Paul: Itís too bad the Hum Vee isnít available to the general public. Apparently they are all destroyed vs auctioned because they are not street legal :(

A Hummer just wouldnít be the same :)

Louie

PMUCCIOLO posted 05-11-2002 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO    
Louie,

I mean no offense to the "post classic" Whaler owners, but I will not even consider one of the new Whalers.

I spoke at length today with the local law enforcement officers--one on a Justice 21, and one on an (older) Guardian 20. I have met and spoken with them before in a professional capacity, and their knowlege of Boston Whalers is extensive. (No, they didn't ticket me! They were part of the rescue team who brought me victims of a boating accident.)

Even the Justice, with its reportedly smoother ride and wider beam, is going to be scratched from my list. The Guardian is the only way to go after talking to these guys.

I have submitted my "wish list" to the dealer, and I'm waiting to see how the figures look. I'm also ready with some Tums, as I anticipate a good case of indigestion.

I'm on to the Guardian. The Justice has been dropped. I'll keep everyone informed.

Paul

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