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Are BW's worth the price.......
|Author||Topic: Are BW's worth the price.......|
posted 05-24-2002 08:41 PM ET (US)
Honest - I am not trying to fire anyone up; I'm looking for your input - so here goes. As of this past January I began to look for a boat. Naturally I heard of Whalers and most other popular brands. By reading this board and others (THT, iboats, FS, Salt Water Fishing, etc) I have learned a great deal. In my opinion I have also learned of what I thing are some excellent brands of small (17 to 19 foot) center consoles.
Everyone has seen the Montauk commercial in which the boat is cut in half. [For this topic I'm only going to refer to the Montauk in comparison to others] Do you remember the commercial in which they cut the McKee in three? Don't all boats with foam flotation float? When I looked at the May-Craft 1800 with a 115 Yamaha 2 stroke, trailer and guage package - it was $15300 out the door. A Cape Horn was more at $18500 for a 17 foot which is actually 17' 8". Why then is a Montauk over $19500 for boat, motor and trailer when it is smaller in length, beam, and freeboard. The BWM is also a type of skiff that rides hard in chop while the other two have semi-vee hulls that ride much better. I guess what I'm trying to ask is are you just paying for a name, a tradition or are Montauks really that much better?
Remember - I'm NOT knocking your boats, just trying to learn.
posted 05-24-2002 09:24 PM ET (US)
I would tell you to buy some other brand of boat and buy a BW and see which one last longer, I know that it is not very logical and no one would actually do that but that would answer your question, the reason BW's are a little more in price is because they stand the test of time and use. Therefore that is the reason they have such a dedicated client base, people that have had a BW and other boats know the difference and why they pay more for the "Boston Whaler Name". And as for the subject of smooth riding, it depends on the model/year of BW you are referring to, the older whalers tend to have a rougher ride I will admit that, but the newer models ride just as smooth as any other boat I've been in if not better. In short, no one can justify the price unless youve owned one.
posted 05-24-2002 09:33 PM ET (US)
The value difference is in quality of design and materials, fit, finish and details. The value difference survives in boats 10, 20, even 30 years old because of the same quality of design and materials, fit, finish and details.
You didn't mention the Edgewater boats. They probably are the second best made, not a coincidence that they are Dougherty designs.
Of course, this is only an opinion but it is shared by many, including many owners of other boats that lust for a Montauk.
Red sky at night. . .
posted 05-24-2002 09:45 PM ET (US)
up front cost is not the only factor I use in selecting what I will buyG I have found that certain things are just worth more and give me more satisfaction than others. I hate cheap fishing tackle, plastic watches and shirts that don't fit right.
Got to justify this in your mind. OK how long are you going to keep the boat, what do you want in a craft, what will you do with it, how much will you use it, ect. Buy a brand XYZ Skiff 15,000,,,,buy the new Montauk for 18,000, keep them both 6 years with same use and maintenance, X will sell for ??? the Whaler will sell for ???. What is the cost per hour or the cost per trip? This may be the wrong way to consider the cost, but I have a 18 year old Whaler (15) that is worth probably 80 o/o of the price it originally sold for.
posted 05-24-2002 09:53 PM ET (US)
I donít have all the answers for you, but I ask you this question in return-
How many 30, 20 year old Mckees and Cape Horn boats are still being used?
I donít think that there are that many and if they are around they are dirt cheap. I know this is true for the McKee not sure about Cape Horn. Why? I guess it comes down to quality and maintenance.
BW stands behind their boats check this url out and you will understand http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000174.html
tuck95 posted 05-16-2001 11:26 PM ET (US)
Another factor is the construction, polyurethane foam is poured into the hull mold while the mold has not cured all the way, this foam expands and then the whole unit, hull and foam cure together in essence become one solid piece. This is not done with the other two manufactures you have mentioned. This is what gives the BW hulls their strength and solid feeling. If you inspect a BWM you will notice that the gunwales are solid since the foam has expanded and cured even there. Rest assured that a BW hull will float a lot longer than the other two. Does McKee or Cape Horn give you a swamped rating? No!
As for the hull design the BWM is perfect for its design. If you want to compare modified Vees, you should compare the Dauntless, Outrage lines. Which have higher freeboards.
Many people prefer a low freeboard and the Montauk and classic Outrages have this, for the type of fishing or crabbing they might be doing. It is a matter of personal preference.
If you ask me, then Yes the Boston Whaler Montauk is worth the extra money
posted 05-24-2002 09:55 PM ET (US)
You really get what you pay for when getting a Whaler. I have restored many boat different boats in the past (a hobby of mine) and sold them, and I am just amazed at how well this boat is made/built. I do not think that I will ever own another brand. I own a Montauk with all original teak. You would not think that my boat is a 78 model. The gel coat holds up to time. There is not a screw in the boat that is stripped from the glass/backing. There are a few small crazing areas but nothing bad. This boat is so freaking solid. I also really enjoy the ride and feel of it in the water. And of course I love the look. Sure you can buy any brand and be happy, but if you want a boat that will out live 4 or 5 outboards, then think about getting a Whaler.
posted 05-24-2002 10:52 PM ET (US)
Why does a Corvette cost more than a Celica? Enough said.
posted 05-24-2002 11:19 PM ET (US)
the lines of my outrage are absolutely beautiful.
posted 05-24-2002 11:51 PM ET (US)
In some cases, the Boston Whaler boat does not really come with an excessive price premium. Case in point is the new 170-MONTAUK model.
At Bass Pro Shops they sell their house brand MAKO 17-footer with a 90-HP Merc 2-stroke and trailer for $17,995. The Mako is a nice boat.
For that same money you can have a Whaler Montauk with the same engine and a comparable trailer. There really is not a premium to be paid for having a Whaler.
I will grant you that immediately prior to the new Montauk's arrival, the old model was selling for about $24,000 with that level of equipment, so there was a significant difference in the cost compared to the Mako.
posted 05-25-2002 07:16 AM ET (US)
Jimm, suggest you test drive as many Whaler's and other candidates as possible and then YOU decide! Now, I know I'm biased but think I'm also objective and of course recommend A Whaler (I have owned over 50 and currently have 5 so you can see where I'm coming from). As for the Montauk (16'7" hull) there are boats that ride better but none that I know of that provide the all around performance/seaworthyness that the Montauk provides... again, test drive and you will feel the difference ... then you will know! Happy Whalin'... Clark ... Spruce Creek Navy
PS>A Whaler can also be a great investment$
posted 05-25-2002 10:26 AM ET (US)
Yes, if you want a quality boat. You get what you pay for. My '90 Montauk is a great inshore fishing platform. Safety is hard to put a price on. I like going out 5-15 miles and know that if the wind kicks up, it can handle 6 footers. When considering the cost of a boat, several economical considerations factor in. Trailering expense. A 2000 pound boat, motor, trailer, and gear can be pulled by any midsize car. You do not have to buy a $30K Suv or truck to pull 4000 pounds. Operating expense. Recently went out in a nice Kencraft 20 foot CC. Cost for fishing 8 hours was $80. The montauk would have been half that. $80 is not bad split between 3 fellows, but what if you go alone or with your son. Great economical boat. Resale is a huge positive. Great ski boat if you have the maximum power. Is any boat worth the price? Probably not. But when you make that decision to buy, you can't go wrong with a Boston Whaler Montauk. Go for it. Just my .02 worth from 10 years of enjoying the same boat.
posted 05-25-2002 03:58 PM ET (US)
I live in South Florida, where boats are a premium. That being said, there are not a ton of Whalers around, but there is a fair share.
From what I have seen and battle tested down here, I think Whaler makes a superb 11-15 ft and 23-27 ft boat. In the 16-23 ft range they get slaughtered down here by salt water giants such as Grady, Mako, Regulator, Contender, etc.
The fact is that most BW's are not good offshore/salwater boats. The simply do not have the factory rigging to compete with similarly priced boats. For example, jimh's comparison of the Mako 17 to Montauk 17 is not a very valid one. The BW is the great intracoastal cruiser, while the Mako is the superior fishing machine.
JB's comment inciting BW's to be the best boats made is tremendously biased, as there is no right answer to who makes the best boat. However you must also keep in mind that most boat owners do not keep their vessels for long periods of time, one thing where a Whaler's value is unquestioned.
In my opinion, the best thing about BW is the resale value. That is the reason I purchased my first 13', sold it for more than I paid, and am anxiously looking for my next small Whaler.
posted 05-25-2002 07:31 PM ET (US)
Is any boat worth the money? Probably not.
The beauty of boating lies in the intangible aspects of the pastime. I own a Montauk, and am perfectly happy with it. I fished today with a friend who owns a Bayliner (Trophy) and he loves his boat as much as I love mine.
We had a great day out on the ocean, caught some striped bass. Is my boat worth more than his? Not today!
posted 05-25-2002 08:13 PM ET (US)
I think a better comparison is look at twenty year old Whalers, then try and find a similar competitors model from the same year and check on its condition and price. That is the easiest comparison and the best reason I can think of to own a Whaler. This old axiom is usually true in boats and wives, you get what you pay for, or, wish you had made the right choice in the first place, cause you always pay for it in the long run anyway. Ken
posted 05-25-2002 08:55 PM ET (US)
If you consider the open bilge design found on Gradys, Makos and other premium fishing boats (and on all price-point boats), you'll find there is no comparison to Whaler in any size range. The typical hose-clamp through-hull fittings, plastic deck plates and undersized bilge pumps are all that are keeping you off the bottom in these boats. After nearly sinking in my Uncle's 21 foot Aquasport due to a rusted out hose clamp on a scupper hose, it's clear to me that a Whaler is worth the money. When I'm out in my Montauk and the weather kicks up, I don't have to guess how much water is in my bilge, worry about taking one over the stern or pray that the tiny bilge pump burried deep in the bowels of the boat will keep me afloat.
Here's an eye-opening article highlighting the weaknesses in many of these boats.
From what I've seen, only Edgewater and Scout compete with Whaler in this critical area.
posted 05-25-2002 09:29 PM ET (US)
Another article by the same author regarding problems with traditionally constructed (open bilge) outboard boats.
posted 05-25-2002 11:18 PM ET (US)
Your 10 miles from home by water little 17 foot boat,late darkening afternoon, wife 3 kids having fun on the beach, and a vicious thunderstorm darkens the sky, the wind and waves picking up and you got to run from it by water, everyone scared and your jobs get'em home safe. Me I'd rather be in my 1973 Montauk than any new 17 footer I can think of at any price. Moonshine took me home no matter the water the wind the storm. I traded up to a 22' 1988 outrage this year after 23 years in the 17 Montauk which sold for $2,000 more than I paid for it. Maintenence is the key!!
posted 05-26-2002 12:11 AM ET (US)
Past performance is probably the best indicator of future performance when you judge a company. So the past Boston Whaler models others describe as having 30+ year life spans indicates the slight difference in initial price seems to be worth it. I HOPE SO.
Last year I purchased my first BW a 1998 40th Anniversary model 13 footer. It was a left over model that was bought by a preacher and had never been in the water.
The BW dealer's owner brought it down to NC on his way to Hilton Head, SC. It was dropped upon be unloaded and had a 10 inch hole in the starboard side along the transom. This required 3 months to fix and was done at no charge. The price purchase price was not renegotiated(to compensate for damages) but the dealer supplied a bimini top and mooring cover at their cost. Also they actually charged me for a new battery when they could not find the one that went with the boat.
Last summer we were enjoying the boat and began to notice that the finish on the wood interior was cracking. After three months the entire wood interior was cracked. After numerous calls to the dealer and Boston Whaler customer service. The final word was. The warrenty was only for 18 months on the wood interior. I was the second owner as well. BUT the boat had never been in the water up until I got it.
We then noticed behind the origonal damaged area on the exterior hull, the blue inner hull was beginning to crack.
So back to the repair shop and a call for a new wood interior at my expense.
I still don't have the boat back and it was purchased in the winter of 2001. the wood recently arrived but it took over four months to arrive.
It is interesting that the purpose of the 40th anniversary 13ft model was to celebrate the legacy of Boston Whaler yet apparently EVERY interior of the 200 or so boats went bad due to the heavy LACQUER finish cracking. Boston Whaler only replaced interiors during the 18 month warrenty period DESPITE their knowledge that this was a real problem and affected all the the Anniversary models.
I think this is very poor from the customer relations point of view.
I love the history and nostalgia of Boston Whaler and want to have my boat back as perfect as possable. My gripe is that the company didn't back up the product.
I think they should have offered something. So I am not sure what to tell a new potential customer after these past events.
posted 05-26-2002 07:07 AM ET (US)
Those are really fun links in your post. Thank you.
A lot of people come up to me at the launches and tell me that Boston Whalers are too expensive. I have found that if you consider maintenance costs and resale, they are some of the cheapest boats you can own.
posted 05-26-2002 09:41 AM ET (US)
I hate to tell you this, but in truth you have been treated fairly by the dealer.
Yes, you are the second owner of a ďusedĒ boat that has gone past part of its warranty period.
The safety issue with the damage to the hull was taken care of for free, on top of that you were given those items, bimini and mooring cover, at cost which saved you some real dollars. And I can not see how the dealer would be responsible for a battery, that should have been taken up with the Preacher.
I am sure that the dealer is repairing the inner hull for you at no charge, since you make no mention of paying for this.
As for the wood interior, it is cosmetic and has nothing to do with the safety of the boat. This is something that almost all classic whaler owners maintain, in striping and varnishing or oiling most on an annual basis. Wood requires care, what will you do when the new wood finish begins to fade and dull? I am sorry to tell you that you are responsible for maintaining your wood interior. You will find out that this will be true for all makes of boats that use wood.
If you read my post at the beginning, the post I pasted is by someone that is a second owner of a Boston Whaler 1999 Dauntless 16, the fueling problem was a safety and environmental issue, it was taken care of beyond the warranty period for free.
As far as I can tell the company did back up the product within reason. And your dealer is treating you fairly, he brought the boat to you (most of us have to go get the boat), he is repairing the damage that occurred at delivery for free (as it should be), for the inconvenience he has given you the bimini and mooring cover at cost and I bet he installed the bimini for you for free too (which is something he did not have to do).
Why donít you sell that 13 and buy a used McKee, Wahoo, or Carolina Skiff it will cost a lot less and see how that company and dealer will respond to your issues after the warranty period had lasped, these boats donít have that wood to take care of either.
Sorry, you just sound a little whinny.
posted 05-26-2002 11:30 PM ET (US)
Yes I am just a little unhappy. I have a house on the coast of NC and purchased a Pursuit 1850 in 1991. It came with a 115HP Yamaha and has been perfect. That boat has remained in the water for 11 years with the exception of annual bottom paint. The quality is excellent however Pursuit only builds a few hundred boats per year and the smallest is 22ft.
I grew up with whalers and think they are great. I also understand a wood interior needs refinishing on a regular basis. The word on the 40th anniversary 13ft is that many interiors were cracking while still sitting on the dealers floor! Most folks who buy these 13s have the resources to spend alot more. I just felt a recall was in order to preserve customer relations and valuable future sales. I hope to be around to see Boston Whaler go another 40 years. Thumbs up to the new Montauk lets hope it will be available with a 115HP motor soon afterall the Pursuit is starting to age.
posted 05-27-2002 05:15 PM ET (US)
Andy those were very good articles and when you apply what was in them to the Boston Whaler you can really appreciate how well designed and thought out Boston Whalers are, in this case the Montauk specifically, in seaworthiness.
Most of those problems have only a small impact on a BW hull, with the exception of being thrown or swept overboard. Even if a BWM hull was to become swamped it would drain off while underway.
Another factor on the new BWM is that the wiring uses pop out breakers and not fuses. The wiring is well done on my D16, and since the new Montauk is sharing the same console as the Dauntless 16 I will guess that the battery is located in it and the wiring is on par as with the D16.
Fit and finish has always been outstanding with quality fittings. The hulls at this point are hand laid, at least the last time I checked, and not blown. This has given BW hulls an excellent gel coat finish. What havenít I covered? Hull, wiring, battery, fittings, finish, seaworthiness.
Tradition and Reputation have their roots some where along the way, in the past and in the present. How many lives have been saved because the survivors were on a BW? How many lives were saved by people on BWs? How much is a life worth? Is a Boston Whaler worth it? Yes and it seems BW are getting more reasonable. And from your numbers up to around a $5000 difference, that is a little less than what a funeral would cost.
Just my thoughts about this.
Jimm have you compared all the factors between these hulls besides the price tag?
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