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  Kickers not allowed on Montauk 170??

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Author Topic:   Kickers not allowed on Montauk 170??
Jimm posted 06-22-2002 08:57 PM ET (US)   Profile for Jimm  
A message on another board states ---
"It is a little longer and wider but rated for less HP and Whaler states that you can't hang a kicker motor on the transom."
The person is referring to the new Montauk 170. Can anyone verify that BW says you can't use a kicker?
Tom W Clark posted 06-22-2002 10:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002275.html
seasicknes posted 01-28-2003 12:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for seasicknes    
According to Chuck Bennett,
A kicker motor/bracket can be added to the 170 Montauks built after
7/12/02. Before that time, there was no reinforcement molded into the boat
to accept a kicker bracket.
Check with your dealer to find the date of manufacture on the boat in
question.
hauptjm posted 01-28-2003 02:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for hauptjm    
jimh, I think you have some interesting folks listening/watching your site here. This topic of no supporting wood for a kicker started on June 17th of 2002. According to seasicknes, Whaler "corrected" this as of July 12th, 2002. Now, I'm sure there are other factors that contributed to Whalers decision, but I have to believe that the discussions taking place here are being monitored.

This of course is a good thing. I doubt Whaler will begin designing/building boats like the "Classics", but our discourse may have an effect nonetheless.

Personally, I am a huge fan of the Classics, but I can say that the folks I have spoken with at Whaler in recent years have been nothing short of professional, conscientious people. Chuck Bennett truly embodies this. We can always hope.

hooter posted 01-31-2003 11:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
Ah agree wid you, Jim. Chuck's helpful, responsive, follows through, an all around good egg. Somethin' tells me he's been around Whaler longer than Brunswick, as mah mem'ry surely goes further back than when Whaler took on all them bowlin' balls, and Chuck's part of a longer mem'ry string, seems like. Anybody know f'sure?
homey posted 01-31-2003 09:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
I don't understand why anyone would even consider mounting a kicker on a 17 Montauk?

Its a 17' boat, which is rated for a mid horsepower engine.... A kicker would not only add weight to the transom but cause the boat to be off balance....Am I missing something?

alkar posted 01-31-2003 10:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Homey, I can't imagine how anybody could answer your question any more clearly or thoroughly than Tom and others did in the post "linked" just three posts above your question.
Wreckdiver posted 02-01-2003 06:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Wreckdiver  Send Email to Wreckdiver     
I had a dealer tell me that the modification to add a kicker added $100.00 to the price of all the 170 Montauk hulls.
homey posted 02-01-2003 06:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
alkar, I'll clarify my question...What is the purpose of a kicker on a 17' Montauk? or any 17' boat? Boats of that size are rated for midsize power thats ideal for trolling and watersports....Unless you plan on going 30 miles offshore and you want the insurance of getting home without having to call Seatow...But who would go 30 miles offshore in a Montauk? I would have to seriously question the state of mind of someone going so far offshore in such a small boat regardless if its a Whaler or not...
hooter posted 02-01-2003 09:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for hooter    
homey, yer sure a questionin' lad. You answered all yer own questions wid'in the precedin' post. Right minded r'not, Dougherty built li'l boats that can take big water in stride, and some folks obviously live a li'l larger than others. For the smart ones among the large livers, a kicker helps ensure they'll live t'see shore again. Go on out an' live a li'l, son!

Ah like t'see that bumper sticker that says, "No Fear", on a youngster's pick'em-up truck. But it's best t'make sure yer large liver's equipped wid a large brain, t'mebbe ensure continuance of yer gene pool. So bring along a kicker when yer take to big water wid a motor a li'l past its prime.

jimh posted 02-01-2003 09:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I can't figure out what revives some of these older threads once in a while, but it is often interesting to re-read them.

What this one shows is that there are other online places to get information on Boston Whaler boats, but the amount of peer review of those sources is often limited. If someone makes an incorrect or misleading statement on continuousWave it generally gets attention from a wide group of experienced readers who set things straight.

Next, the thread shows the fondness we all have for Chuck Bennett, who is truly the classic Boston Whaler owner's best friend. If the Boston Whaler company could ever measure the effect of Chuck Bennett on brand loyalty he would put the curve off the chart. He is a great asset to Whaler. If you have ever spoken to him you know he is from Massaachusetts (by his accent), and he did work for Whaler in Rockland.

I am certain that many people involved in the design, manufacture, and sale of current Boston Whaler boats read the forum from time to time. These people don't post articles to the forum because typically the companies for which they work have a strict policy of prohibiting them from participating in online interaction like the forum.

This policy is understandable. It protects both the employee and the company from getting embroiled in online controversy. Even posting anonymously could be a problem for an employee in a small company. If you have a giant corporation like FORD that has 100,000 engineers involved in the design of their new cars, it would be hard to pinpoint which one of them just leaked something online, but in a small company like Boston Whaler it would be fairly obvious who was posting. I think the design department can all go out to lunch together in one car, and a compact car at that.

As for the price going up $100 to cover the kicker reinforcement, that seems reasonable. It is another piece of wood to get purchased, stored, cut, trimmed, inventoried, routed to the assembly area at the right time, glassed in place, and surrounded with foam. Doing all that increases the labor costs, too. Since the company is in business to make a profit, they'll need to mark that up to the level needed to keep the boat generating profits.

So at first glance a $100 for a $3 piece of plywood might seem excessive, but in the end it probably needs to cost that much.

One of the goals of the 170-MONTAUK was to reduce the labor needed to assemble the boat; this bracket adds more labor. And to keep that price point low, Boston Whaler has already been working on what has been described as a thin profit margin for this boat. I think they are pricing the 170-MONTAUK about as low as they can to get the boat selling strong. Start a new customer with a Montauk and sell him a 240-OUTRAGE in a few years, that is probably the company thinking.

Those are my rambling thoughts on this snowy winter morning.

--jimh

seasicknes posted 02-01-2003 10:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for seasicknes    
This is to answer HOMEY's question regarding kickers. Pacific northwest most of the montauk owners do have them on there boats. We will generally use them to troll for salmon.
I own a 97 montauk with a 90 hp Johnson and a 8 hp Johnson. I get to the salmon grounds running my 90 hp. Then once there, I do all my trolling in my 8 hp.
Plus, if ever the main motor should die. At least the kicker will get you going (slowly).

Ken

alkar posted 02-01-2003 11:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Homey, I'll clarify my answer with a quote from the link that I tried to get you to read: Tom Clark wrote, "While many, if not most, of the small sport fishing boats in this part of the world have kicker motors on them, emergency propulsion is entirely secondary to the real reason for them: fishing. I suspect this may be part of Matt's frustration.

"Whalers are only very rarely run more than a few miles from shore in the Pacific Northwest. Itís just not possible unless you go to the ocean. 17' boats never were considered offshore boats around here so the fact that modern outboards are very reliable is substantially irrelevant to this discussion.

"Fishing around here usually means salmon fishing. There are many different techniques for fishing for salmon and certainly trolling along at one ,two or maybe three knots is one of them. But Mooching or motor mooching is also very popular and this cannot be done with a big motor nor can it be done consistently with a bow mounted electric.

"When fishing for Salmon with, say, a cut plug herring, the speed that the bait travels through the water is all important. It usually needs to be very slow but it needs to move. The swirling currents of our very tidal waters mean that in order to get your bait moving at the correct speed at depth the boat has to move anywhere from not at all, to very fast, as water does not move as a single mass but in layers sometimes going completely opposite directions.

"What this means to the salmon fisher in his Waler is that he may want to be going dead slow one moment and 2 knots the next. There is no way a big motor can do this. In fact, much of the time I am fishing I am trying to get my kicker to run at minimum idle speed. Sometimes I even have to put it into reverse to back down on the current.

"Trolling with the big motor is not practical because the boat will move too fast. It is also unpleasant because as quiet as even modern four strokes are, they still make more noise than their little siblings and they burn more fuel and produce more exhaust no matter how relatively clean it is. **** You donít need a kicker on your new Whaler? Go tell that to all the fishing guides in BC and Alaska!"

Tom explained it well. I'll add this.
I had a 2001 Yamaha four-stroke on my 20'er. Predictably, it would not troll slowly enough for the salmon, so I added a matching 8hp kicker. With the addition of the licker my boat looked like all the other boats where I was fishing - except for the VERY small boats, or those who were dragging trolling plates or buckets to slow down (until their owners could afford to add a kicker).

The boat manufacturer I used to work for now produces approximately 700 boats annually. The majority of them are designed and purchased for fishing - and the majority of them are ordered with small kickers. I'd be surprised if 5% of those boats see the water even two miles off shore.


Rodger posted 02-04-2003 11:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Rodger  Send Email to Rodger     
I just emailed Chuck Bennett at BW and he told me that my Montauk 170 was the first boat with the kicker motor wood added to it. My hull was manufactured on July 12, 2002 and is hull number BWCE0479G203.

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