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Bait and Switch; Or "how I learned to stop worrying and love the low emission outboard"
|Author||Topic: Bait and Switch; Or "how I learned to stop worrying and love the low emission outboard"|
posted 06-25-2002 05:31 PM ET (US)
[Changed TOPIC; was "WILL WHALER FORCE THE DEALERS TO TAKE PRODUCT WITH ONLY MERC MOTORS??"--jimh]
I have heard some rumblings about this [i.e., the orginal topic, now the bait] , [but] [now here comes the switch] I would not under any circumstance purchase a Whaler with a OPTIMAX on it!!
The first one was enough it blew after 20 hours!
posted 06-25-2002 05:40 PM ET (US)
I know for a FACT that all 2003's 20' and under will definalty have Merc power only. Not sure of the larger boats, however the new Merc (Yamaha) 4 stroke will be available.
posted 06-25-2002 06:03 PM ET (US)
And, at least in the Montauk line, you cannot get a hull w/o a motor. Tried; failed, and life goes on.
posted 06-25-2002 06:03 PM ET (US)
I've heard of a dealer delivering a 18' Dauntless without power in 2001, with a fair amount of credit given for the engine. The dealer specifically said that was the only model he could sell without power though.
posted 06-25-2002 06:04 PM ET (US)
Actually, I think it was earlier this year that the above happened.
posted 06-25-2002 07:28 PM ET (US)
That's great news, both for Mercury and this website. Maybe our lawyer friend will get rid of his Whaler bow rider now, buy a superior, sinkable 31 Contender, and disappear from here. Love the caps too.
posted 06-25-2002 07:51 PM ET (US)
I don't get it- I know plenty of guys who have had and are having a fine OPTIMAX Merc experience. What's the point? If the Merc stuff was complete garbage they'd be filing Chapter whatever. People keep buying those new Whalers-Tier one boat with fine power. .03 David
posted 06-25-2002 08:25 PM ET (US)
I don't get it either and I get sick and tired of reading about Merc this and Merc that.. Mercury makes a good motor. It's the #1 motor..It's the last US manufacturer left..I have an Optimax on one of my boats too. It's been a great engine.
posted 06-25-2002 08:33 PM ET (US)
(RE: the caps)
we all know lawyers like to shout
posted 06-25-2002 09:06 PM ET (US)
For those of you that feel you MUST defend any critque of OPTI or MERC;
HERES JUST THE PLAIN FACTS (in caps)
1. I have had 3 whalers in the last 6 years thats probably more whaler experience than most on this board. ALL the WHALERS were excellent products including the new BOW RIDER I currently own.
HOWEVER, My experience with the OPTIMAX was somewhat less than pleasant, In 1999 on my NEW Whaler equipped with the OPTI,
If that story offends some or just excites your hormonal levels so that you feel you have to respond to defend this product, I'm glad it wasn't your family being towed back in to the ramp on your NEW WHALER!.
And YES Theres NO charge for the CAPS!
posted 06-25-2002 09:14 PM ET (US)
Obviously some detractors have not even read this BOARDS headline before pouncing.
"The MERCURY-YAMAHA DEAL PENDING !!!!!" JimH
posted 06-25-2002 10:44 PM ET (US)
Mercury #1 in sales. Mercury #1 in Direct Injection Engines. They must be building and doing something right..All of mine (Plural)have been great...and YES WHALER WILL FORCE THE DEALERS TO TAKE PRODUCT WITH MERC ONLY MOTORS BEGINNING IN 2003.
posted 06-25-2002 10:51 PM ET (US)
There are always anecdotal reports about certain events or circumstances. If the same event is reported often enough, it becomes more significant just from the number of times it is repeated.
There may not be much statistical significance to the event, but if it happens to you it becomes pretty significant.
But stories of engines that stop working after very short life spans are not all that rare. I've heard them about all brands.
I've bought and installed over 80 DELL computers in the last year at work. We have had four failures so far. So 95% of the users think their DELL is just great, and 5% of the users are wondering how long their DELL is going to last if it couldn't run the first year without failure. In one case, the same user has had his DELL computer fail twice, and he thinks it is total junk--he'd never buy another DELL if he had his way.
Your opinion varies with your own personal experience.
There was a time when shipping a product that was 95% free of defects was considered pretty good, but that is not the case these days. Consumers tend to look at something that rolls of the line at 95% defect free almost as "shoddy goods."
One reason they're spoiled like this is the automobile industry, where global competition has forced car engine builders to deliver practically defect-free product or suffer dire consqeuences.
posted 06-25-2002 11:48 PM ET (US)
As usual I have some thoughts on the subject.
It is logical that a manufacturer of several products wants to combine them as much as possible to increase the profit line.
You can't get a Volvo I/O in a Bayliner or Sea Ray so why would anyone expect to get anything other than a Merc on a Whaler.
No Brunswick bashing here, I happen to be a died in the wool Merc fan.
Look at the bad side. If Force were still alive they could have realy put together a low price model. Sorry I mentioned that one, hard to visualize a Boston Whaler Trophy.
posted 06-25-2002 11:55 PM ET (US)
Well If thats true, I think that does a diservice to Whaler buyers in that the freedom to choose from an array of power options is something that many including myself value greatly. Whether it's OPTI or FICHT or HPDI or 4 STROKE many Whaler dealers give their customers that option.
Outboard Power is a personal choice that I prefer not to lose to the decision makers at Brunswick and quality boat vendors (like Whaler) should be more concerned about selling the boat and let the consumer decide the powerplant or at least give them the option!
Jimh: Your RIGHT, I wouldnt buy the DELL either!
posted 06-25-2002 11:57 PM ET (US)
Maybe you could purchase a outrage with twin MARINERS!
posted 06-26-2002 12:57 AM ET (US)
No problem with the Mariner, they are just Mercs with a different paint job, but since I allready have a Whaler with a Merc I am happy.
Just wonder though what inspired that comment about an Outrage with twin Mariners, not at all related to my post.
posted 06-26-2002 12:57 AM ET (US)
Boy, does this smell like just a TROLL...
posted 06-26-2002 07:41 AM ET (US)
When you can buy a Ford car from a Ford dealer with a GM motor in it the same will be true of Whaler.I say let the factory install the motor at assy.time the trade off in most cases is a better quality job than a dealer installed motor.I would not want to buy a i/o or inboard boat with out factory installed engine.Why buy a o/b with out factory installed power?
posted 06-26-2002 08:06 AM ET (US)
Looks and walks like one too...
posted 06-26-2002 09:16 AM ET (US)
I was under the impression that the Merc-only rule had been imposed earlier (like last year). Came to find out that's not the case since I saw a '01 OR 23 w/ twin 150 HPDIs recently. Guy said dealer ordered it slick and put the Yams on it himself.
posted 06-26-2002 09:27 AM ET (US)
No one can manufacture any complex, or simple, product with zero defects. In engineering it’s called early failure, and is the reason manufacturers provide a warranty. The best way to get around this is with 100% testing and documentation. But you usually have to be a government to pay for that kind of reliability.
The truth is that the consumer is the final quality check on most products. Welcome to life!
posted 06-26-2002 09:44 AM ET (US)
You can get any Boston Whaler you want with any motor you want. It just costs more and is less convenient. Who ever said boating was inexpensive and convenient? Also, it is my impression that most of the member's boats on this site are on their second or third motors anyway. Kelly
posted 06-26-2002 09:50 AM ET (US)
I was puzzled by IHG's attacks, joined by others, on TRAFFICLAWYER in this thread, mocking his caps, his choice in bowrider boats, calling him a troll and suggesting that he "disappear." Seemed incongruous in this typically polite, fine forum, but as a lawyer, I've accepted that lawyer bashing is big sport in recent years. Then when IHG suggested that a parallel thread re Mercury reliability problems may have been started by a competitor, I checked his profile.
Please accept this post as my effort to encourage participants to reply on the merits, and not to insult contributors because of ulterior motives.
posted 06-26-2002 09:51 AM ET (US)
I hate to burst ya'll's bubble, but all Whalers will come with Merc.'s next year. But you can however, try to make a deal with your dealer, and trade it for a Yamaha. And if you can't, as they say in the islands, they make good black anchors.
posted 06-26-2002 10:33 AM ET (US)
Try going to a Chevy dealer and say I want that model with a Mercedes motor in it......
posted 06-26-2002 10:34 AM ET (US)
Points well made and hopefully well taken, Rubadub.
posted 06-26-2002 10:53 AM ET (US)
first attorney.....then insurance.....now blank...
Yep, smells like a TROLL.
posted 06-26-2002 11:20 AM ET (US)
While I'm not going to rise to the bait, let me make one comment:
At least for those prospective Whaler purchasers, if your close enough to our neighbors to the north, check out a Canadian dealer....
I talked last weekend with a couple from Michigan, who related to me that they bought their Whaler from a Canadian dealer, who had no problems placing on their transom, a (cough), non-Merc product. They said that they had to go out-country to do it.
posted 06-26-2002 11:58 AM ET (US)
Few things.....not bashing anyone here(I rely on Attorneys)and I do not want to start a Merc VS Joeblow argument here.
1)I DOUBT you(TRAFFICLAWYER) have more experience on Whalers than most here, especially myself, Clark and some others who have been on them 30+ years. 6 years is nothing and having only 3.....paleeeze!
2)I do not think ANY boat manufacturer should mandate a certain engine on their boats. I do not think they should even offer "optional" engine sizes. In the days of gone, our local dealer ordered EVERY boat sans power and you had your choice of single, dual, Yamaha or Johnson, trailer or not, bottom paint or bare, etc. It was "custom" to everyone's needs and that is the way ALL boats should be. I did not buy certain boats because I was TOLD what I could get for an engine. I guess this is not a problem for Merc fans but as we can all see, some are adamant about black outboards. On the flipside I wonder if LHG would buy a Whaler if no Mercury power was available?
3)Like Janis said...in the islands where their life(no Towboat US) and lively hood is dependent on their outboard.....Mercs are never seen hanging off the transom. I am going to the Grenadines in August I will take pics at all the islands so I can put my $$ where my mouth is. 5 years ago it was OMC & Yamaha ONLY....let's see if anything has changed.
posted 06-26-2002 12:15 PM ET (US)
If it wasn't for Mercury, there probably would be no Boston Whaler today, so all you Yamaha fans remember that..Boston Whaler was in ruins when they bought them.
posted 06-26-2002 12:31 PM ET (US)
Well the use of caps is shouting which isn't called for in any forum not just this one. Whether in title, member name or post.
Lawyers seem to be a relative frequent occurrence on this forum and each should be as any other member whether a Doctor, Lawyer or Indian Chief evaluated on their contributions whether inquires or advice!
The topic of this post made by the Ambulance Chaser oops I mean Traffic Lawyer has been broached numerous times going back to 2000! It is nothing new. Each year one hears the prepackaged Merc powered rigs is all that will be available. Brunswick's policy as Janis points out in her post may well be broad based in the coming year since all previous indications over the past few years have pointed to this happening. Not a surprise!
However, as also been pointed out you can still order a 'custom' Commercial Division Whaler without power. I don't think Brunswick is stupid enough to dictate to the commercial interest (majority of purchasers) which power they choose.
So we don't have to make a big to do out of really nothing. The consumer marine business is changing and we as consumers still have choices but as time rolls on we will have less and less as dealers consolidate to the highest margin less labor package deals offered by their respect franchise manufacturers.
Just a few thoughts before this goes much further into a 'mud' slinging conflict which serves no purpose.
PS Wow Janis that's a new one 'black anchor' ---knew most of the others accorded to Mercs going back from the 50's but dang I like it --- you sure it ain't just a little skylarking or maybe tad of sip sip as they say over the waters! :)
posted 06-26-2002 12:41 PM ET (US)
You can buy a crappy Century POS boat; they're only offerred with Yamaha. You won't get a HydraSports without a Bombadier engine either. For better or worse this is the wave of the future.
I do get tired of the Merc bashing over Optimax motors, though. The typical rant has someone complaining about (warranty covered) Optimax problems, and then raving about how their new, carbeurated Yamaha runs perfect. Never mind that that's an apples to oranges comparison, and that a carb or EFI Merc is as reliable as any motor made.
Yamaha has had plenty of HPDI problems, but you don't hear as much about them because there are such a low # of these motors out there compared to Opti or FICHT motors. DFI outboards are complicated, it's no surprize to me that the # of problems with them would be higher than for conventional 2 stroke motors.
posted 06-26-2002 12:44 PM ET (US)
Interesting, Mercs are the last true American Outboard. American engineering and design and American built, or at least I must assume. In any case, recalls tend to indicate faulty engineering (design flaws) that become apparent after time. Breakdowns tend to indicate faulty assembly. My grandfather swore by Mercs. Offcourse this was in the 60's and the technology was not only much more simple but I am a firm believer in the fact that things where built better then. This issue could open up a huge political/cultural-science can of worms, but needless to say, I am curious if Trafficlawyer's original optimax had a defect due to poor engineering (design) or due to improper assembly. Did the dealer or whoever looked at the engine determine the exact cause of the breakdown?
posted 06-26-2002 12:46 PM ET (US)
It's interesting to note how many have had their sensitivities incited by the mere suggestion of what color hangs on one's transom. PEACE! :D
posted 06-26-2002 01:11 PM ET (US)
Salmon Tub, I disagree with you on outboards being better in the '60's...I believe the new, conventional, carb or EFI outboards made today by any of the major brands are far better built & more reliable than the outboards of the 1960's. The metal is far better, they start & run better, and most folks get more hours out of them if they treat them right. It's the DFI outboards that are giving Merc and (formerly) OMC a bad reputation, and it's a shame.
posted 06-26-2002 02:32 PM ET (US)
I'm sorry but I must stick up for TRAFFICLAWYER for the simple reason that he is from Atlanta.
Hang in there, Buddy!
As jimh's friend would say, "How bout them Dawgs!".
posted 06-26-2002 02:49 PM ET (US)
Black is actually a pigment not a color:)
posted 06-26-2002 02:50 PM ET (US)
There are over 200 different shades of black as well. Just FYI!
posted 06-26-2002 03:00 PM ET (US)
Rather than inspiring some intellectual discussion and debate It appears that the POST had the unintended consequence of polarizing some members. The issue is still one of choice that dealers have in past made available to Whaler customers, unfortunately some members have found a platform to unleash personal attacks,make absurd analagies to computers,suggest that OLD tech is superior and become the Ann Landers of the internet. Whether it's a pigment or color your missing the entire POINT!
GRAY or BLACK or WHITE= YOUR CHOICE!
posted 06-26-2002 03:09 PM ET (US)
Isn't this more of a post for "post-classic?"
We're not buying new Whalers, we're trying to make our old ones better. I couldn't care less about what power goes on a new Whaler. I don't like 'em, don't want one and drove my wife nuts looking for as old a Whaler as I could find. This way I get to put whatever power I want on the back! Even if it is unsinkable, they don't make 'em the way they used to.
posted 06-26-2002 03:12 PM ET (US)
Why are you picking on me...I agree with you? I have owned 12 Whalers and only 1 had a Merc and that was not for long(2 months). If I HAD to own a NEW Whaler I would be in the same boat(pun intended) as the rest of you who feel the need to spend tons of money, and have a welfare engine on the back. But since I am in finance, I have learned that next to owning an airplane, buying a boat "new" is the worst thing you can do with your money....next to burning it or being married to Johnny Carson. But that is just my experience and $.02
posted 06-26-2002 03:26 PM ET (US)
John W, thanks for the clarification, I agree with you on your point, but Trafficlawyer, I still am curious as to what the dealer and/or factory said regarding the breakdown, did the oil system fail? Was there a defective part? What caused the engine to fail? They must have given an explaination for why the powerhead finally died.
posted 06-26-2002 03:56 PM ET (US)
Rubadub-dub: If you think I've had enough of "trafficlawyer" because he "claims" to be a lawyer, and I'm in architecture and insurance, you're being a bigger "village idiot" than he is.
It's his repetitive posts on the SAME theme, allegedly true but not proven, that is particularly annoying. As would the same repeated post dumping on Whaler, or Yamaha or anybody else. He has an anti-Mercury agenda and it's out of place here, once said only once. He should try the Hull Truth instead, where they'll applaud his opinion of Mercury products. I don't really care if his handle is lawyer, draftsman or bigshot. It's all starting to sound like a broken record and really damaging and polluting the otherwise high Classic Boston Whaler content and discussion on this site, that JimH has worked so long and hard to create. Jim alone deserves better for his efforts. "Consumer Reports" type of information, pro or con, is what we should have here, not this banner headline stuff he likes to put out. I resent these hackers & crashers, and think enough is enough. We'd all be a lot better off here if some of these people would take a hike.
Unfortunately, not everyone that owns a Boston Whaler has the ability to intelligently participate.
posted 06-26-2002 04:02 PM ET (US)
I love to get your goat Larry:)
posted 06-26-2002 04:33 PM ET (US)
You know what the whole stupid problem with this thread is? If they only offered them with yamahas, people would bitch. Mercs are NOT bad engines, I just prefer other brands. If I was REALLY interested in buying a new whaler, I would buy an extended warranty with the $$ I saved over buying a Yamaha and drive home with a grin. If it did act up like above...it would not go very long without SOMEBODY kissing my hull and fixing that engine. My posts above were jokes....when I mentioned lighting it on fire.....no smirk here(pun intended).
posted 06-26-2002 04:48 PM ET (US)
Wow...when I left this site this morning, everyone was ok, now all ya'll are in a tizzy over this. I saw a new 18' in Green Turtle, it had a black anchor on it, it broke down too, when the captain ask for some assistance on the radio, no one answered. He had to call in a mechanic from another island. This took 2 days for him to get there, and another 5 days for parts. So, I think he's still sippin Goombays, waiting...Ya'll play nice now;)
posted 06-26-2002 04:49 PM ET (US)
7 days of Goombay Smash.....he'll forget ALL about it!
posted 06-26-2002 05:24 PM ET (US)
The dealer merely replaced the powerhead without providing any indication other than the cylinder failure and the the unit presumably was shipped back to the factory for analysis.
posted 06-26-2002 05:27 PM ET (US)
I'll leave humorous response to the last comment to bigshot:)
posted 06-26-2002 05:34 PM ET (US)
Another Yamaha dealer with an agenda against Brunswick. It's starting to become apparent where all this stuff is coming from. Some people just don't get the message, and this site is really not meant to be for people IN the marine business, undercover, to run down their competition, and BW/Mercury *is* competition for Edgewater/Yamaha. My opinion of Hontoon Marine just went way down. Janis, take your anti Mercury stuff someplace else, and go sell your Yamaha's to the Edgewater crowd.
posted 06-26-2002 05:36 PM ET (US)
"otherwise High classic Boston Whaler Content and Discussion"
"village Idiot" "hacker and crashers"
Hmmm seems, this MUST be the HIGH CLASSIC CONTENT I've been missing out on the HULL TRUTH.
posted 06-26-2002 05:37 PM ET (US)
WOW (in caps), I'll be afraid to ever express my opinion here. Do some of us have a B/W elitist attitude? Take a pill - the guy was only expressing his feelings. If that happened to me I'd be upset too.
posted 06-26-2002 05:44 PM ET (US)
Out of aprox 20+ OMC's and 1 mercury my family has owned, only the mercury gave serious problems, to the point I would do my best to never own one again. Plus , take a good look on Boat US's web site about all the problems they have getting Mercury to honor warranties. Bruswick is concerned about the botton line, not the customer. They are starting to look more and more like Microsoft with their bundling deals-If you force a customer to buy a mercury with brand X boat you will gain market share by default.
And as head of systems for a university, don't get me started on Dell :)
posted 06-26-2002 05:53 PM ET (US)
Halalujah! Well Put! and Deserving of more more HipHip.
Janis, SHAME SHAME! You should go stand in the corner after reporting that the ONLY trouble had on the Rendevous was with the SEARAY products and for your choice of anchors!
posted 06-26-2002 06:08 PM ET (US)
Cant we all just get along??
posted 06-26-2002 06:10 PM ET (US)
Did I start this thread and title it in all caps? First posting should be re-read by all. See this guy's other posts also. Same old, same old. We could do without him.
Nobody's ever going to convince that "canned goods" Proline guy didn't have an agenda. He was even dumb enough to admit it.
posted 06-26-2002 06:27 PM ET (US)
I won't start with the Lawyer jokes now..
Poor Yamaha owners, dealers, salesmen etc, not only do they have/represent/sell the #2 engine, but they can't get them Whalers factory rigged with them!!
I'm really glad I'm not in love with those "high quality" Centurys (A Yamaha Boat Company), then I'd be stuck with a Yamaha! Yikes!!
posted 06-26-2002 08:03 PM ET (US)
"Black Anchor"! Thats got to hurt you die hard Merc fans. Especially coming from a woman (just kidding Janis). I think all of the major motor manufactures make good engines. The problem is that we are dealing with the new direct injection technology and it is probably unrealistic to expect the engines to be completely trouble free. I think all manufactures are having, or had, trouble with these engines including Yamaha. It may take a while to work the bugs out of these engines. What is unfortunate is that some members of this forum get so upset over the motor issue and comments that appear to be made in a joking fashion that they resort to unpleasentries.
If Boston Whaler only wants to offer boats with Merc engines, it is their choice to do so. There may be reasons beyond the speculation of this forum as to why certain power packages are not offered. If a consumer doesn't like it, they can buy a different boat.
With respect to the lawyer bashing issue, its amasing how this invades all aspects of a lawyers life, including his selection of outboards. Given the conduct of many lawyers, its probably to some extent warranted. Even if it isn't warranted, lawyer jokes are fun. Irrespective of this, I don't think the guy deserves to be called a Troll.
posted 06-26-2002 08:07 PM ET (US)
Wantawhale - where do you dream up this stuff, and why:
"--having problems getting Mercury to honor warranties. Bruswick is concerned about the bottom the line, not the customer."
None of that is Boat/US's official position, and you know it.
If OMC was so concerned about the customer, they wouldn't have screwed thousands out of $800,000,000 when they went belly-up. They made Mercury look pretty good. Several thousand Dealers had to rush to Mercury and Yamaha just to save their business and family income. So now you want to hurt them too, by implying their Mercury warranties are worthless, like the OMC fiasco they were trying to escape?
posted 06-26-2002 08:27 PM ET (US)
I did not interpret WantaWhale's comments as libelous statements. I think they are an expression of his opinion regarding this matter. It is important that we recognize that most of this forum is comprised opinions. If we are going to view comments not as opinions of members, then we have a problem.
posted 06-26-2002 08:45 PM ET (US)
Jeff - You're the lawyer, not me, and thanks for your comment. You could very well be correct,legally. But, the wording is:
"all the problems they (Boat US) have getting Mercury to honor Warranties".
That seems like a false & misleading statement of facts to me, not an opinion.
1. Does the well respected BOAT US Association actually say this about Mercury?
2. Is it actually true that Mercury is not honoring VALID warranties? If not, it is an intentionally false, damaging and misleading statement.
And I doubt if the Mercury attorneys are going to be knocking on his door. But.....
posted 06-26-2002 08:58 PM ET (US)
I understand your position but think we may want to think about how statements on this forum are interpreted by others. Please email me so that we can discuss this privately.
posted 06-26-2002 11:40 PM ET (US)
posted 06-26-2002 08:07 PM ET (US)
Wantawhale - where do you dream up this stuff, and why:
"--having problems getting Mercury to honor warranties. Bruswick is concerned about the bottom the line, not
> None of that is >Boat/US's official position, and you know >it.
Libelous only if not true. I suggust you got
I have dealt with their "warranty" so I know what i speak of. If you are happy with Mercury, great as thats what makes the world go around. But I suggest you search some of the boating forums and i think you will find that Mercury is the most hated motor out there...has to be a reason for that..the whole world can't be a shill. Sure there are plenty of happy owners but there are just as many if not more that hate them with a passion. The only other marine product I see with this kind of rep would be Bayliner.
As far as OMC goes, they went under trying to do the right thing by honoring warranties for a poorly designed product (I am talking about OMC and *NOT* the new owner). Yet I have seen posts on this very board by a guy going thru the mill on geting mecury to fix his OPtimax.
I am sorry if I sound overly bitter but it seems like the marine industry is becoming nothing but making a fast buck-Quality is Job None.
posted 06-26-2002 11:50 PM ET (US)
If you were going to meddle with the post, Why not just lock the thread!
posted 06-26-2002 11:52 PM ET (US)
This post is exactly what I was talking about with the post on member bashing in META.
It appears this post that started this should have been removed instead of responded to my Jimh.
The posts like this just go to the dogs and never should make it this far because this SITE is suppose to be about CLASSIC WHALER'S not Mercury outboard's Mike
posted 06-27-2002 12:01 AM ET (US)
I've been reading this thread over and it has allowed me to come to a new level of understanding.
I am now at peace.
I think there is a force in the universe that is at work, and it understands our needs. It really is working in a positive way. But it is subtle.
Here is the situation. In the current ouboard market, there are some new designs that are low polluting, low emission engines. These are very complicated engines. In order to sumultaneously operate at low emission and good performance, these engines have to be built nearly perfectly. There is little tolerance for deviation. The slightest malfunction can cause huge problems.
Why do we have these engines? There is hardly anything in their design that makes them work better or last longer or be more reliable than the designs they replaced. All the complicated stuff added on to them is there primarily to solve one problem: low exhaust gas emission.
It is fair to ask, who wanted the outboard engine to have less exhaust gas emission? Was it fishermen? Was it cruisers? Was it water-skiers? No, really, no one that uses an ouboard ever said to his buddies over a bottle of beer at the end of a day of boating, "Damn that is a fine engine they got on the transom of my boat but I wish those sons-a-bee's could just make it emit lower exhaust gas levels of unburnt fuel and nitrous oxides."
Nor did any of the manufacturers ever tell their design teams that they better come up with a way to add 100-pounds of expensive complicated electronics to the engine and not increase the performance one bit.
Naw, the people that wanted low-emission outboards were primarily drawn from one segment of society, from one particular group...lawyers!
You see, the lawyers got together and decided they had pounded the living daylights out of the automobile, beginning in the 1970's when they made them so screwed up you could hardly drive them, all for a few molecules of CO2 or NO2 in the exhaust. But, after billions of dollars of research and development, the car guys drove the lawyers off. They got the emission so low that those good ol' lawyers couldn't even measure it anymore. Kinda hard to take it lower when you can't even measure it anymore.
So for a couple of years there were a lot of lawyers out of work, nobody to sue, no polluters to complain about. Then they found outboards.
It was like Lewis & Clark coming over the prairie and finding 100,000 buffalo there for the shooting. Millions of outboard motors buzzing around and not one EPA scientist sniffing the exhaust.
Those lawyers looked at each other and grinned. It didn't take but a few years and lawyers had new laws in place, get those emissions down, real down, and real fast. And starting right now get those old smelly outboards off of our Lake Tahoe.
So the fun began. Companies like OMC and Mercury, hardly big enough to be even a Tier-1 supplier to the auto industry, got stuck with developing outboard motors with new, very low exhaust gas emission requirements. Gotta meet this figure or you can't sell 'em. Yep, that's what the lawyers said.
So out came all the electronics, pumps, injectors, fuel rails, oil coolers, gas coolers, belts, pulleys, and all that other wiz-bang that is needed to stop the 2-stroke outboard from emitting some exhaust gasses that don't pass muster.
It cost the companies a lot of money to develop those engines, and then it cost them plenty to make them, and when they didn't always work right, it cost them to make good on warranty repairs.
But watching over all this is that force in the universe I mentioned at the start. It said, "I gotta straighten this out--make this right."
And so it acted. In a subtle way. You can see the proof of this here in this message thread.
Do you see it?
Once you recognize it, you'll be at peace, too, like I am now.
Don't you see the justice that has been worked? How in the end there is a sense of fairness in the universe.
I know now I can buy a low-emission outboard and it will work perfectly for me. I have no fear. I have been to the mountain.
I know if I invest in a low emission outboard it will run like a top, never skip a beat.
No, it won't fail me. Low emission outboards will work great for me.
There is only one kind of person that low-emission outboard seem to cause problems for.
And I think there is some justice in that, don't you?
posted 06-27-2002 12:39 AM ET (US)
I think that when the moderator of this board has to resort to baseless igorant remarks than this board has no longer become a platform for the free flow and unfettered flow of ideas, good or bad! If the response you posted reflects your minimal understanding of the information exchanged here, LIKE IT OR NOT, DO ME FAVOR AND REMOVE MY POSTS FROM YOUR BOARD!
By the way ihg is "Jurisproodenz" some term of art they taught you in ARKATEK school.
posted 06-27-2002 12:42 AM ET (US)
Well stated! I would not have been so subtle.
posted 06-27-2002 12:50 AM ET (US)
Regarding "wantawhale", I rest my case, and good riddance to he and his buddies (if we're lucky). Sure has it in for Brunswick/Mercury (like Whalernut Jack) and it's supposedly "hated" motors. Of course he's a crash from the Hull Truth & other sites and their hate-Mercury threads over there, as he references. The Canned Goods guy & Ticketlawyer came from there besides, from what I can tell. Wantawhale must be in the Marine business, probably E/J, since he's dealt with Mercury warranties and brags about OMC's pre-bankruptcy honor! The bankruptcy judge has other things to say about that these days, with over 100 lawsuits filed so far for preferential & discriminatory payments. Maybe he's a Bombardier plant. Who knows. No computer person would have it in for Brunswick so badly. Guess we don't really know who he is, but he thinks his cute little photos of the 11' Whaler gives him the ticket to credibility and to pollute this site. Hardly.
Me, I'm not really in insurance or an architect at all. That's why there's no e-mail & location. I'm in Brunswick's promotion & sales department, somewhere in IL. And that's all I have to say on this ridiculous thread. Darn, I thought I'd get it up to 100 posts at least.
Sorry Alioop, and your points are well taken. But are we talking about member bashing, or visitors (do they really deserve the software designated title of "members") who bash Brunswick needlessly, for their own financial gain (Janis & her apparent Yamaha sales motive as one example) or egomania? What about the real "members" & BW Dealers here who want to sell a Whaler with a Mercury on it? JB has already suffered through this garbage, with a torpedoed post he didn't deserve. Nice work guys. You're giving all the decent, repectable Yamaha and OMC owners here a bad name. Give and take on the pros and cons of various Whaler engine brands is fine, but not this trash.
posted 06-27-2002 12:56 AM ET (US)
jimh.....ah grasshopper....you have evolved into a beautiful butterfly...such words of wisdom....
May the force be with you...
posted 06-27-2002 01:01 AM ET (US)
When I saw this post with all capitals,I saw two things were going to happen!!!!!!!!
1. The poster was going to get Trashed
2. I knew it was going to put you on your soapbox(no bashing meant).
What I feel should happen to posts like this is they be removed and the poster sent a email(If they leave there email address)telling them of proper posting for this or any site, because as you can see what happened.
posted 06-27-2002 01:19 AM ET (US)
It was not the CAPS that caused the result...
Any one who has been around forums/internet should know that ALL CAPS are not the best way to post. Just look at how many people post with ALL CAPS! There must be a reason....Think...
The real problem "may" not even be what he wanted to say. The real "problem" is the way he said it , IMO, and his follow up posts and the words he chose.
That is why I felt it was "just a TROLL" and I still feel so.
IMO TRAFFICLAWYER is either, naive about forum posting, needs to think more about what he wants to say before he posts or, as stated before, "just a TROLL".
posted 06-27-2002 01:24 AM ET (US)
Thank you jimh. I just canceled my order for a new 25 horsepower four stroke and am going to purchase a two stroke. Me being a lawyer, the new low emissions four stroke would be nothing but trouble for me. Now I just need to find someone to sell me a two stroke in California.
posted 06-27-2002 07:18 AM ET (US)
CENSORED AND BASHED by Jimh,
Congratulations Jimh, you've finally come out of the closet and shown your true COLORS. Things are not well in Whalerville when the moderator must resort to denigrating
posted 06-27-2002 07:31 AM ET (US)
Look Guys! It seems to me some of us are missing the point. Maybe the issue is direct fuel injection and not the color of the engine. You have the option of ordering a new Whaler with EFI or carburetors if you want. Otherwise you can bring your checkbook and have the dealer make things “right”.
Outboard engines are probably more alike in this global economy than most marketing departments would have us believe. If one brand was completely superior to another, you would see lees arguing and more agreement.
posted 06-27-2002 08:52 AM ET (US)
Well again, life (like web sites) is a series of losses-- some of which are easier to take than others. The web site goes on. .03 David
posted 06-27-2002 09:18 AM ET (US)
Jimh - I thought you and this board were a "little" classier than that retort. Having worked for 35 years in law enforcement I do not particularly care for lawyers, but they are a necessary evil. I always noticed that when a person could not debate a topic with legitimate facts he would revert to lying or foul language. In your case you took to knocking the persons profession. Those knocks were a little more than an attempt at jocularity.
When I found this board I felt like I would be able to learn quite a bit.......I have but I've also learned that there are a small group of people who feel that it is their sworn duty to protect you, B/W and anything connected with that company. I've also noticed that when a controversial topic comes up a fair number of the regular contributors with a good deal of whaler knowledge stay on the sidelines.I guess they do not want to be involved in this type of lynching. My advice - delete the thread and lets get on with life........Jim
posted 06-27-2002 09:43 AM ET (US)
Jeff, Scott, et al-
Just for the record, it's not really a matter of "calling" someone a troll; it's more a matter of suggesting that their posting(s) is/are intended to act like a bait being dragged through the water (trolling), just to see what might get hooked. Thus Don M.'s comment about "not rising to the bait".
It would appear to me, just to torture the metaphor a little, that in this case the bait was taken but when the creature that took the bait got close enough to the boat for the parties at both ends of the line to see what it was at the other end, questions started to develop as to whether they'd both survive the encounter; and if not whether the troller or the trollee was going to have a shore lunch.
My money is on the fish.
posted 06-27-2002 09:53 AM ET (US)
Obviously this horse has been beat to death already, but I can't help adding one more comment on the likes of TRAFFICLAWYER or canngoods, who run around the internet bashing Mercury.
First of all, let me say that I own a Yamaha outboard, and it has been a very good motor. It has been no better or worse in reliability than the 5 Mercury's & 1 Johnson my family has owned, model years 1973 through 2001; it has been better than the '83 Suzuki we owned (although that motor had a hard life prior to our ownership), and significantly better than the 1974 Chrysler 75hp we owned! (What a piece of junk). The best motors we ever had were my father's 1984 Merc 200, my 1987 Merc 150, and my father's 1983 Merc 115 (which he still has).
Every product has the potential for problems. Two different owners of Yamaha HPDI motors in my marina have had numerous problems with their brand new motors, all covered under warranty. I don't know these guys well but despite the problems they've had they're not irate at Yamaha. I know another guy who just had his 2nd caterpillar 3208 replaced under warranty! Is he happy about it? No, but that doesn't mean Cat in general or the 3208 in particular are inherently bad.
Now we have TRAFFICLAWYER, who trashes Merc on multiple websites because of the problems he has had. Let's see, he had a $6 fuel primer bulb problem. Hmmm, not exactly something I would hate a company for. Then he had a problem with his oil tank connection? Sounds like a dealer install problem to me. Then the powerhead goes, for reasons we don't know. Merc replaces the powerhead with a new one. What more does one expect them to do? I realize the powerhead going wouldn't make me happy, but really, is a full replacement under warranty not a fair solution?
This was recounted as if it happenned yesterday, and yet now TRAFFICLAWYER owns a Yamaha. Is that an HPDI Yamaha, TRAFFICLAWYER? Or are you happy with your carb or EFI Yamaha & are comparing it to your DFI Mercury? Do you really think that there have been no HPDI powerhead failures out there? If you had the same problems with Yamaha, would you be bashing Yamaha all over the internet?
Perhaps the Yamaha HPDI, or the Evinrude FICHT, are more reliable than the Merc Optimax; I really don't know, but I doubt there's much reliability difference between any of them at this point. In any case, I would be reluctant to buy a DFI outboard from any manufacturer, they just seem too high tech to me. But I get so sick of the handful of people like TRAFFICLAWYER who complain all over the internet when their high tech outboard has a problem that's covered under warranty.
posted 06-27-2002 10:13 AM ET (US)
It seems to me that everyone has missed the original point which was about choice. Choice is good. The vast majority of people, given their choice, will choose the path of least resistance. In case of a boat purchase this would mean taking the boat with the factory rigged engine. This path has expedience and cost in its favor. Brunswick would probably still sell 99% of the Whalers with Mercury outboards. A small percentage of people would insist on a specific brand of engine or trailer, and are willing to pay more and wait longer. I see no reason why these people can't be accommodated as well.
I've owned Mercury, Johnson, Evinrude, and Yamaha engines and have had great success with each. (The Johnson did blow up, but it was very old). I have no hidden agenda about pushing a particular brand of engine, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to have the right to choose.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 06-27-2002 10:17 AM ET (US)
I just took the time to read this whole thread and I am left wondering: Was there a full moon recently?
TRAFFICLAWER’s initial question was about new Whalers being available with nothing but Mercury power and the answer is yes, you can only get a new Whaler with Mercury power. This is not news, nor is it hard to understand. It’s a business decision, and perhaps it will prove to be a good one for the manufacturer.
Can you get a Chevy with a Mercedes engine? No. So the comparison of Whaler to the car makers kinda’ accurate. But does this mean it’s a good thing that you can only get a Mercury on your new Whaler? No, of course not. Wouldn’t you like to be able to order any engine in any new car you buy?
The same is true of most boat builders and I/O’s. But there was a time when you could order a new Boston Whaler with any brand of I/O you wanted. Whaler was very accommodating back then and they were doing good business. It is this Boston Whaler that I love. The fact I can only get a Mercury on a new Whaler is irrelevant to me. I have no interest buying a new Whaler.
Now the use of all caps may have sunk TRAFFICLAWYER right off the bat. It’s just bad form to “shout” just as it’s bad form to not capitalize the beginning of sentences and proper names. If you are trying to make a point why piss people off by using all caps?
Yes this whole thread is something like what is found at the Hull Truth. I think a little bashing and arguing is OK. Debate is what a forum is all about. But the viscous repetition of one’s prejudices does get a bit tiring.
Ironically, lhg throws an absolute fit every time anybody criticizes his beloved Mercury brand outboard. He calls this criticism “trash” and says how inappropriate it is here on the Classic Whaler FORUM. But when someone is trying to burn OMC at the stake for the Ficht, he’s standing there with a can of gasoline and a pack of matches.
Is talk about outboard motors appropriate on a Whaler forum? I think so. While they have little to do with the boats themselves, outboard motors are a popular topic of discussion as are tow vehicles and user names. So what? It just so happens that the owner of this site, jimh, likes to talk about outboard motors too so that’s what we do. If TRAFFICLAWYER wants to post a criticism of one brand of motor, so be it. Pick apart his argument, don’t call him names.
As to jimh’s comments about TRAFFICLAWYER’s occupation and any justice that has been served, I can only say there is about as much logic there as there is in the contention that outboards, like cars, would all be better if they didn’t have all this new fangled technology.
I, for one, am glad to be driving a vehicle with fuel injection, air bags and smog reducing emissions devices. The days of the Ford Pinto are long gone. Good riddance.
posted 06-27-2002 10:40 AM ET (US)
Regarding factory installed motors..what happens if you want a jack plate ?? Would this be a special order at the factory, or would this be a dealer installed item ? Which would would be a bit redundant IMHO.
posted 06-27-2002 10:54 AM ET (US)
WOW! You guys/gals are WAY outa control. First off...you can NOT delete this thread....bad edicate. Editing is however appropriate if rules are broken.
I did not feel Jim was bashing lawyers, he was stating how low-emmission engines are "developed" or a better word...mandated. I agree we did not desire lower emmission outboards but I don''t think ANYONE here with a 90+hp would have been opposed to better fuel economy which happens to be a byproduct of lower emmissions due to greater burn efficiency. Although it was maybe the tree-huggers or goat-kissers that may have started this mess back in the 60's, the lawyers are what made it happen....therefore taking the blame and never the credit. WHAT CREDIT you ask? How about the fact that an average 1970 car would burn more emmissions in 100 miles that a modern car does in 100,000 miles. BS you say....I say get the facts. Who gets the credit....the EPA or the automakers. Did automakers catch flack in 1974 when their cars ran like hell, sure did. Did they have warranty problems....no because slapping a catalytic converter on a car and installing an EGR and 1000 feet of vacuum lines does not affect the internals of an engine, just the performance. If OMC could just do the same, none of this would happen. Unfortunately a cataltic converter will melt an outboard and a 500lb V6 producing 125hp would not be too acceptable, etc. Do 4 strokes have these issues.....not yet. Mostly all the bashing comes from DFI. VERY few 4 strokes have had problems, just like very few Nissan/Tohatsu have had issues so the light is not on them being they fall within the relm of "acceptable casualties". Will this DFI nightmare end? probably when quality control issues are tightened or Mercedes starts making outboards. Until then, accept the risk of buying new technology or buy a stinky traditional(I sympathize with you CA residents, etc) engine.
As far as the rest of this post....Larry you need to chill! Just because someone badmouths Merc does not mean you have to freak out. I understand you are sick of Merc bashing but it comes with the territory. I am a diehard OMC fan and you NEVER see me freaking out when someone bashes them. I know OMC made some bad motors and I hear their pain. I also know Merc has made some bad motors and I hear their pain as well. It is funny though that nobody here ever bashes Yamaha, suzuki, Non-FICHT OMC, Honda, Tohatsu....just Mercury. Also nobody bashes Mariner which is Merc and maybe all of the above is due to Mercs huge marketshare so therefore more problems. Who knows...who cares. Heck we have people here who love their Bearcats and that is by far the biggest trainwreck of an engine ever made, so to each his own I say.
Now the name calling and stuff has to stop. In all my "arguments" on this forum I have NEVER asked anyone to leave this site, that is not right, nor is it anyones job to ask that except Jimh. If Me, Janis, wantawhale, etc want to bash Merc and whaler it is our perogative until Jimh says enough like he did with nut. This is a community forum and EVERYONE has the right to bitch....within reason. But when people start insulting people and throwing punches because somebody hates a certain product....time to turn the page.
The main issue of this thread was why can't "I" get what "I" want on my overpriced piece of foam!
posted 06-27-2002 11:00 AM ET (US)
>Regarding "wantawhale", I rest my case, and >good riddance to he and his buddies (if >we're lucky). Sure has it in for >Brunswick/Mercury
> (like >Whalernut Jack) and it's supposedly "hated" >motors. Of course he's a crash from the Hull >Truth & other sites and their hate-Mercury
I suggest you look at :
and take a look at the 3rd name down. It even has my phone #.
See above. And if thats not enough any ham can look me up in the call book: N4SZO. I ran the packet bullet board system in this area for many years on VHF and HF (40meters).
So I have no credibility with you because my boat is only 11' long. Well at least you show your true colors there.
My best friend and I disgree on Mercury. But you won't see us resorting to name calling and acting like Jack-Asses because we disagree. Try not to take it so personal.
posted 06-27-2002 11:09 AM ET (US)
Bigshot: Great post..I feel like rushing out and getting a case to put on ice for ya.:-).
Get those cup holders mounted on the 13 yet ??
Living large and free in NH.
posted 06-27-2002 11:24 AM ET (US)
Get me a subscription to "Berr of the month club" instead:)
That boat in 1/2 tank of gas has been the demise of 4 beers so far. Like Schneider said in Jaws:"Were gonna need a bigger boat!"
posted 06-27-2002 11:29 AM ET (US)
Allow me to make a couple of observations:
My conclusion--which I never directly stated but only pointed to in what I thought was a fairly humorous manner--was that Optimax engines only seem to be a problem for owners who are lawyers. Is this conclusion wrong?
The two most vocal, most prominent (and perhaps the only) people who have posted anectodal reports about problems with their Optimax engines have been (presumed) to be lawyers (from their handles).
Now these presumed men of law want to imply that all Optimax engines, all Mercury engines in fact, are shoddy goods, based on their reports of problems. From a sample of two, a universe of product is condemed. So they plead their case to us.
Now, in an exactly analogous manner, I have examined the evidence and reached a verdict which must be equally as valid, since it is based on the same size sample, the exact same evidence (the testimony of the lawyers themselves.). My judgement is that Optimax engines work great for everyone except lawyers.
Based on no more assumptions or leaps of faith, I have examined the evidence that our posters with lawyer-handles have presented and reached a reasonable conclusion. From this evidence the lawyer-handles judge that all Optimax engines are bad, while I judge that only Optimax engines owned by lawyers are bad.
Actually, my judgement is a better fit with the larger body of evidence. There are many testimonials to the great performance of the Optimax from owners who are not lawyers.
Looking at this with strict logic, it seems that my verdict better fits the evidence presented than that of the lawyer-handles.
Low let me defend myself from some recent attacks. Please show me one paragraph in which I wrote "baseless ignorant remarks" about the profession of law?
In order for my comments about the activity of lawyers in creating new rules and regulations restricting the sales of outboards that did not meet certain exhaust gas emission standard to be "baseless" there would have to be NO LAWYERS involved in that process. While I can't cite any one in particular, I would wager there were plenty of lawyers involved in that process.
As for my remarks being "ignorant", this might be true. Perhaps I have ignored some other evidence, perhaps I am not aware of the true roll of lawyers in the process by which outboard engines came under the regulatory aim of the EPA and other agencies.
Now as for changing the topic of this thread, this is a privilege I often execise in the process of moderating the forum. Generally I try to make the thread topic correspond with the thread content. In this case, the change has been greeted with much objection. The topic that the original title implied only lasted for the first SEVEN words on the original post, before the thread veered off into a new topic, only related tangentially. I rest my case.
As for my skill at moderation or lack of restraint, I can only plead "I just do my best". So if I have been imperfect in the moderation of this thread, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court (of opinion) and ask forgiveness.
And further, I confess I was taking pain medication at the time and was not in possession of my full senses. So I plead temporary insanity, too.
posted 06-27-2002 11:32 AM ET (US)
All together now:
Companies spend alot of time and money creating and protecting brand loyalty because it works. Loyalty is almost always more of a motivator than logic and the facts. In general, I would say the more loyal you are to a product, the less likely you are to evaluate that product on it's actual performance. The real beneficiary of brand loyalty is the owner of the brand.
posted 06-27-2002 11:39 AM ET (US)
Let me know if you don't use all of the prescription - I think I'd like to try some of that brand of insanity if it would help me write like that...
posted 06-27-2002 11:41 AM ET (US)
Why is it that you stated in one paragraph....took me some serious bandwidth?
Good job and everyone here better think about that last statement. I am not very brand loyal...I am wallet loyal and make decisions based on price and quality received for that amount. Therefore I really do not think I will have to worry about what motor will come on my NEW whaler:)
posted 06-27-2002 12:23 PM ET (US)
Kelly, actually it's more like.."FORD..TOYOTA..FORD..TOYOTA!"
Personally-I'll stick with the Ford.
posted 06-27-2002 01:38 PM ET (US)
Quite frankly, I thought jimh's post was pretty funny. Anyone who's offended by it is taking this way too seriously.
BTW: I have noticed that messing up lhg's username seems to be a dead giveaway that the poster either has relatively little experience with this site (or just hasn't been paying close attention to details). Yes I'm looking at you TRAFFICLAWYER and rubadub555 :-)
Legal Disclaimer: As the cute little smiley face indicates, this remark was made entirely in jest. The author disavows any and all responsibility for any offense taken by anyone reading this post. Reading this post is not recommended for the thin skinned, those unable to detect sarcasm, members of the legal profession or anyone who has had trouble with a Mercury product. Hell, reading this post is not recommended for anyone, as it has no real content and reading this far has been a complete waste of your time.
Hmm, that really describes this entire thread.
posted 06-27-2002 01:41 PM ET (US)
I think it is:
MULTINATIONAL CONGLOMERATE X....MULTINATIONAL CONGLOMERATE Y
and so on.
posted 06-27-2002 01:51 PM ET (US)
There is more BS on this thread than anywhere else. Might not be valuable content but it has substantial content. The bandwidth meter is running:)
posted 06-27-2002 02:54 PM ET (US)
I feel so much better about direct injection motors now that I understand the karma associated with them. And I certainly appreciate people like TrafficLawyer being the early adopters and working out the bugs for the rest of us.
But I wonder what he did wrong in his previous life to end up as a trafficlawyer with a bad engine and no whaler? Must have been really bad. And where is he going in the next life?
posted 06-27-2002 03:22 PM ET (US)
TRAFFICLAWYER -Is the squeaky wheel getting the grease? Or are you using the grease for something else?
posted 06-27-2002 04:54 PM ET (US)
Tom W: "his beloved Mercury brand". What an unkind cut. But if I can give it, I guess I can take it, and it doesn't bother me at all, especially since it came from you. First my stupid boat name, then my beloved engine, my trailer next? It's a Continental, made in Miami FL in case you need to do some research. Hey, it's all in the newfound joking about on this site, initiated by Bigshot, which is now the accepted norm around here. Most think it adds to the interest. I don't.
Does this formula make any sense?
OMC = Emron = Imclone = Worldcom = Anderson =
Nor do I think it was unreasonable to suggest to someone that purchase of an OMC built Ficht was risky, especially as I did on 1999 models before they collapsed. Those people lost their warranties, I think.
Who is bashing the OLD OMC the most? Why it's Bombardier, of all people, with their "parts re-applying for the job" national campaign. They are the ones who said millions of bad tolerance and defective parts went into OMC engines, not me. Maybe it's not really true, but they're making the case anyway to show that they are a superior operation, with superior engines compared to OMC. I have no idea whether they are or not.
posted 06-27-2002 06:28 PM ET (US)
This whole messed up thread reminds me of a fight eminating from a pick up basketball game or a bar fight. One guy just has to have conflict/fight. Looks for it until he finds it. Bang, bang- then blows everyone off. Hey, you the guy in the parking lot driving the Silverado. Yea, they suck. Go ....yourself- bang, bang. Mercs, Bombs, Yams, Suzy-Ford, Chevy, Dodge-who cares. It's ALL opinion.
jimh's running a fine web site. I come here for Whaler content and some fun/entertainment. Boating issues are just not this heavy. Think light!!! .03 David
posted 06-27-2002 06:44 PM ET (US)
Any one want to go for post #100???
posted 06-27-2002 07:10 PM ET (US)
I don't think it's a messed up thread at all, and probably why Jim hasn't wiped it out. There's a lot to be learned here. Some will learn it, some won't. Some will like it, some won't. We got rid of several trouble makers, hopping around the web with their hate agenda, site by site. They crashed the party and got what they deserved. There are plenty of other forums around where they WILL have "rights" where they can participate. So they won't miss us, and we won't miss them.
Many now know where they stand with certain people here, and how they are percieved by others, including JimH. As he says, he's just trying to do his best. Many now know what to expect when they get out of line, myself included. Guess I better watch myself too!
I thought we all agreed this was Jim's party, his guests, his expense, his hard work, his publishing, his time. I think he said there are no "rights" here on this private site, just decent conduct and resonably intelligent discussion, all for free. ALMOST everybody seems to fit this description. The ones that don't seem to disappear anyway. They get mad and stomp off. Usually, they're much better at giving it than taking it.
All this has happened before, and it will happen again. That's just the way the boating world is.
Just had to go for #100, before Bigshot does.
posted 06-27-2002 09:02 PM ET (US)
Oh, well. THose who blame lawyers are just plain uniformed. Lawyers do not create the law or establish braod, far-reaching notions of liability, nor award huge ( and often irresponible) verdicts or awads.
Liberal judges and politicians do, together with juries who dont do their actual duty.. the liability crisis and related litigation explosion occur because the judges and pols have GREATLY expanded the concep of legal liabilty, most often with "socail justice" agenda that is anti individual and anti"big" corporation.
Lawyers (and thier clients and'or liberal agendas) just take advantage of it to achieve their goals. If the law had not expanded, they could not do so.
I guess i have shown one of my agendas--liberty, but its my 2 cents.
WHat was the original topic on this thread about anyway--I forgot!
posted 06-27-2002 10:24 PM ET (US)
All together now.... XANAX...... which is
Alprazolam is an antianxiety agent, benzodiazepines. Used primarily for short-term relief of mild to moderate anxiety and nervous tension. Alprazolam is also effective in the treatment of activity depression or panic attacks. It can be useful in treating irritable bowel syndrome and anxiety due to a neurosis as well. Alprazolam may help the symptoms of PMS if extreme, some cancers pains if given with various narcotics, agoraphobia, essential tremor, and ringing ears
posted 06-27-2002 10:38 PM ET (US)
I'm sooooo confused by this post..
I remember the part about... using under adult supervision. And some assy required. Professional use only. But were the friggin batteries included ????
I still refuse to read the instructions.
Hobie.. now gimme my fluoxetine hcl.
|Lil Whaler Lover||
posted 06-27-2002 11:24 PM ET (US)
First off let me state very clearly that I sell 11 different brands of boats for one of the largest boat dealers in the State of New York. We are also one of the largest used boat dealers in the State. We are not a Whaler dealer, but do sell Mercury outboards.
No outboard brand dominates in all motor sizes for quality or performance. Every single manufacturer builds a dog or two.
My observation is that literally all the OB problems I have seen have been caused by one of two things: 1. failure to follow the break in procedures recommended by the manufacturer; and/or 2. improper winterization of the engine prior to storage. No manufacturer can control these two issues.
When we deliver a new 2-stroke outboard motor we do not fill the tank with fuel. We put a suffieient amount of pre-mix for the basic break in period that Mercury recommends for the specific model. Many customers are upset about this and call the dealership cheap and immediately want to fill the tank and thereby dilute the break-in mix. I do tell them not to do this and to follow the Mercury specified break in procedure.
Translation: by multiple observations I have seen very few product failures caused by manufacturing defects, but many caused by owner abuse, neglect or failure to follow the manufacturers recommendations.
Further, one of my factory reps just visited the new Bombardier plant in Wisconsin and got to test many new motors on a variety of boats. He summed up his comments by suggesting that Bombardier does have its act together and is likely to dominate the market within 2-3 years if the other makes (all of them) do not significantly improve their products. For example he ran the same model boat with an Evinrude 115 and with a competing 150. Both were propped at max rpm and the 115 Evinrude had a better hole shot, top end etc. Please take that with a large grain of salt, it is hearsay, but I have found this gentleman (rep) to be a straight shooter who has never before shown a brand preference for outboards.
Price sensitive boat buyers often extend their penchant for inexpensive excess to poor maintenance practices and utilize cheap after market products in their boats. A boat is not an investment (right Bigshot), but it does not have to be and uncontrollable expense.
At least of you or I want a Whaler with something other than a Mercury on it we do have the option. All we have to do in pony up the funds because it is important to have it our way. In no other form of transportation that I am aware of can that be accomplished.
posted 06-27-2002 11:28 PM ET (US)
Is it safe to swim in the Pool?
posted 06-28-2002 12:38 AM ET (US)
I wasn't going to get back into this one, and hoped it would die. But I have to reply to the last post by LilWhalerLover.
I spent 17 years in Alaska as a Mercury, Chrysler-Force and Evinrude dealer.
Winterization was unheard of at that time and I have never seen an outboard fail for that reason. In the past 15 years here in Seattle in the marine business the same holds true.
I do feel that with the lower quality fuel we are getting now a stabilizer will help eliminate carb gum up. If you park your car for a period of time, do you winerize it? No, not even fuel stabilizer. Winterization, other than freeze protection in an I/O, is a service dept profit maker.
I agree that a lot of failures are caused by improper break in but the majority are manufacturing defects and these happen in all brands, outboards, I/Os, trucks and cars.
So far no one has built a perfect mechanical devise. Maybe next year.
posted 06-28-2002 12:47 AM ET (US)
And the winner in the Mercury-Yamaha-Bombadier-Suzuki-Tohatsu-Honda debate is.....anybody that might be buying an outboard motor. The fact that there are people out there that think one(or is it each) of these is the best made motor makes the other motors better and more affordable. If you think Suzuki motors are the best, you better hope that enough people think other motors are better or at least a better value or the cost of your Suzuki just went up. The same can be said for each brand. If you want a Yamaha on your next new Whaler, you better hope that there are enough people out there that would rather have a Mercury(and I think there are) so you don't suffer too much when you have the motor switched out. The worst thing that could happen to Yamaha devotees is for everybody to wake up tomorrow morning and say, "You know, those guys are right, I better go get me a Yamaha." The competition keeps prices in line and eliminnates the poorer quality units. If there was a thread like this and everybody agreed on the best brand of outboard motor, I would be a little worried. Kelly
posted 06-28-2002 02:01 AM ET (US)
My goodness we all have alot of time on our hands.....some folks just live here. Like i said "BB"= Bed and Breakfst....as for the posts why not take a vote? Demeocratic and all...Merc or O.M.C. or Yamaha or Suzuki or Nissan (Tohatsu) or Homelite or Lawson or British Seagull or Briggs and Stratton or whatever... the point i am trying to make is variety is the spice of life. Even if its a big rubber band and a whirligig. Don`t make your world any smaller ...steve out. ps they all need repairs at one point or another.
posted 06-28-2002 05:43 AM ET (US)
This was one of the most bizarre threads yet. I would be lying if I didn't say I actually "enjoy" these to a certain extent. I prefer the more technical issues however, and find this site to be my best source for information on how to enjoy, use and outfit my Montauk.
In the interest of full disclosure, I have updated my profile to include "environmental lawyer" and "lakeboater" and my e-mail address.
Now I am going back out on the water.
posted 06-28-2002 06:33 AM ET (US)
Lil Whaler Lover, I seriously doubt that Bombardier will be a major player again..For all the this-and-that going back and forth Merc vs Yammie, they both are shall we say "in bed together" on alot of projects and tech sharing. They will keep the Canadians out of this race. The key to market share is available transoms and Bombardier doesn't even own the transoms to hang their new "reapplied for the job" nuts, bolts, and washers..Oh yeah, well they have some rehased old Neptune/Hydrasport hulls renamed Fishhawk..They'll be a blip on the radar screen.
posted 06-28-2002 09:09 AM ET (US)
I know there are others that have more insight, but it is my understanding that Mercury has a lot of its own transoms, but that Mercury still relies heavily on arrangements with other boat manufacturers to get the transoms they need. Those deals are probably negotiated every year or so. I don't think Yamaha owns that many transoms, but that Yamaha relies on arrangements with manufacturers. That strategy seems to have been successful for Yamaha. I think Suzuki is trying to be more like Yamaha in their distribution, but lack the network so far. Honda seems to be building some relationships and seems to have a pretty good distribution network. I think Tohatsu/Nissan is happy to be a bit player in the US market.
As far as Mercury/Yamaha deals, they both do it because it is beneficial financially. That condition can change at any time.
Could Bombadier be a big player again? Yes, all that is necessary is to make good motors, in sufficient quatity, and at a price that is competitive with other offerings. They can do that. And do you know who is hoping that they are successful and will give them the chance? Any boat manufacturer not owned by Brunswick. Those guys cannot afford to be locked into Mercury/Yamaha as their only or primary suppliers. It is too risky and will eventually undermine their operations.
One more comment, Yamaha is a great manufacturing company. They were able to take OMC motors and do a better job of building them and make some improvements. In my opinion, this is basically the foundation of their reputation. I don't really see them as an inovator or the source of significantly new technology. Maybe that is why they have to work with Mercury. The first go around they just copied OMC, this time they have to buy technology. If you want inovation, look to Suzuki, Mercury, Honda, and now maybe Bombadier. I know the Honda line has not changed much for a while, but I think they will drop some things on the market before 2006 that will surprise the competition.
The one thing that the past 20 years has shown us in the United States is that no matter how big you are or how much market share you currently have, if the competition does it better, you can go out of business fairly quickly. And I believe that is the way it should be.
posted 06-28-2002 10:25 AM ET (US)
Here is my prediction-noone here is going to belive me so just remember who said it first:
Given time (~10 years) or so Honda will come out on top or at least 2nd place. I belive they can even overtake Yamaha. I belive this because this is history repeating itself in the motorcycle world from about 27 years ago.
posted 06-28-2002 10:32 AM ET (US)
Well I missed #100 so how about #112? I quote "Hey, it's all in the newfound joking about on this site, initiated by Bigshot(that's me), which is now the accepted norm around here. Most think it adds to the interest. I don't." Cheer up old chap, humor is good! Smiles don't cost anyone anything and they never run out. Turn that frown upside down. You don't always want to be miserable, do you?
Now that this thread has done another 360....here is my $.02:
You want to know what I see in the future? Brunswick going belly up. They are making the same mistake that OMC did, owning too many boat manufacturers. It has worked great for them over the last decade but times have been good too. In the last 5 years or so they have doubled the amount of companies they own..which so far has worked. What happens when the new boat sales go in the toilet? How are they gonna fare? You can't sell off Baja when nobody is buying them. In the past when sales were slow on new boats and the economy was crap, people repowered so Mercury, OMC, etc still sold engines. You can't sell enough engines to make up for the $100,000,000 worth of boats that are now leftovers etc. I think they are slowly killing themselves, just like OMC did when they owned half the manufacturers out there. One mistake and they are done, just like the ficht recall killed OMC.
2nd...Everyone complains that boat quality suffers when owned by a big company and it is usually true. AMF was the opposite of Midas. Everything they touched, turned to doodoo. OMC turned Donzi, the sexiest boats ever made, the Ferrari of boats, into a bowrider with a V6 I/O? A Center console with a 4cyl outboard? They went to hell. They also made a big comeback after OMC sold them off in 95? But did all of them go to hell? I think Hydra-sport was still made well, etc. Now lets talk about Brunswick. They turned Bayliners from ultimate garbage into acceptable recycled goods. Sea Ray is considered to be a darn good boat, but what about Baja and Whaler, I think they are not doing what OMC did to Donzi but Maybe what AMF did to Hatteras or Harley Davidson.
Mercury also made the ZR1 engine for the corvette. Did you know they stopped production for 3 months because of faulty camshafts? This was not Mercury's fault being saginaw made the cams but quality control was the problem. Not only should Merc have been more careful but GM as well. The reason the cams were breaking was the kids hired to move the cars were starting them at 4000 rpms ice cold and not broken in yet and beating them up. Gm paid the luxury tax for all those who had to wait the extra 3 months. What does this have to do with Mercury? Maybe the reason they stopped production on the Optimax was because of a similar situation as this. Nobody knows exactly why the ceased production last year, but we will in time.
Do I hate Mercury....no I own a Mercruiser in my Baja and it is a damn good drive. Do I like their outboards....lets just say I would get the extended warranty and maybe if things went well I would become a Merc fan. Do I admire Brunswick....yes, they bought out both the boats I own so they know a quality boat when they see it, just hope they keep it up. Again time will tell. Would I buy their stock....at a 41 PE ratio(about 3 times above their historical range)...are you nuts? Do I joke alot...you bet! Talking about Boston Whalers aint all that fun kids but it does not mean you can't enjoy it.
posted 06-28-2002 10:44 AM ET (US)
Damn! That was a small novel! Pure fiction of course.
I forgot something though. Evinrude/Johnson will be on top again or at least a major player. Kawasaki invented the jet ski in 1974 and then Yamaha perfected it, Honda is now just entering it but Sea Doo(Bombardier) who came in the mid-late 80's has ruled that market. Maybe they should scratch the Evinrude/Johnson name and call them Sea Doo's or something. Honda will Never be on top unless 4 strokes are the only engines made. Then, like cars they might have a big impact but they better go on a weight & price diet first. Remember what crap boxes Hinda made in the 60's & 70's? It was not until the 80's that people took them serious and they started making bigger cars. Honda has been making outboards for years and the same thing applies. Only blowboaters owned hondas until they made bigger engines. If engines do go to 4 strokes only....you never know, Kawasaki, Ford or VW might be the #1 seller in years to come.
posted 06-28-2002 10:57 AM ET (US)
Walked around the docks in Montauk checked out the offshore outboard boats $$$$. Most were Yamaha. When you gotta go 100 miles out to the canyon theres no discussion about price or why it failed.
posted 06-28-2002 11:59 AM ET (US)
You guys should spend more time fishing then quibbling over who's engine is better. Me, I am spending the weekend salmon fishing on my 22' Outrage, and oh by the way, the Opti-225 is purring like a raging tiger.
First to the fishing grounds.
posted 06-28-2002 02:39 PM ET (US)
Bigshot, i think you want to keep your eyes open for that Toyota logo on the water. It`s coming, steve out.
posted 06-29-2002 04:55 PM ET (US)
posted 06-29-2002 05:06 PM ET (US)
|Lil Whaler Lover||
posted 06-29-2002 06:04 PM ET (US)
Toyota's been there, failed to do it and left the marine market without getting the proverbial tee shirt. They tried for the ski-boat market with a Lexus V-8 powered ski-boat. Could not compete at a viable price and left the market
posted 06-29-2002 06:30 PM ET (US)
posted 06-29-2002 11:45 PM ET (US)
"Gonna buy me a Mercury and cruise it up and down the road"......
Or maybe an OMC or a Yamaha???
posted 07-09-2002 08:47 PM ET (US)
OK..THAT'S ENOUGH! YOU ALL QUIT FUSSIN'!
I MEAN IT, THAT'S ENOUGH! I love coming to this site for not just information, but everyone as a "Whaler Family's". Why should we all let these simple personal opinions interfere with the very reason we are all here, and that's for BOSTON WHALER'S. And weather they power them with 100 "D" cell batteries, a nuclear icon, or whatever, WE are all "IN THE SAME BOAT"! Now I mean it, that's enough of this! >^..^< JANIS
posted 07-10-2002 09:44 AM ET (US)
Then why did you bring it back from the dead? Nobody posted for 10 days.....it was gone.....until now......IT'S ALIVE!
posted 07-10-2002 10:13 AM ET (US)
Die post - DIE!!
posted 07-10-2002 11:22 AM ET (US)
CAN"T LET IT DIE!! I hate to have anything shoved at me without choice, their in lies the problem. I have never been a Merc fan, ao I never had a problem with one. Had several Johnsons, one Whaler with twins and had a lot of motor problems. In the process of purchasing a 25' Whaler I was introduced to Yamaha. Has a 220+ and 9.9 hp 4 stroke installed and was never more happy with the set up. While looking at a 275 hp Johnson, I had been hearing that they had troubles with it's lower unit. I called Johnson three times to talk to a rep on this problem - never returned one phone call, needless to say, that was the last Johnson I owned. That was in 1986. It is a problem any time someone wants to take away your choice so that they can make more money, it will come around and bite them in the (^*+#^*) rear end. Mike, my two cents worth.
posted 07-10-2002 02:51 PM ET (US)
I refuse to buy any brand of boat without the choice of power options, in that being power brand or without power, just a personal opinion, but to each their own. Jack.
posted 07-10-2002 04:52 PM ET (US)
In the 7/5/02 Salty Dog, a regional boat weekly, McCarthy's Marine Sales in Brielle, NJ lists "Now available with Yamaha power" in their Boston Whaler ad. Could be the mercury/yamaha thing, a total lie, a typo or perhaps they are a rogue dealer. The 255 Conquest in the picture looks like its flying the Jolly Roger!
(sorry to keep this thread alive but I just saw the ad today)
posted 07-10-2002 07:27 PM ET (US)
So choice is good, and most prefer it,
but if you post in caps,if your boat isn't big enough, or if you have a beef with Mercury, you get run off the list by a small group of insulting members with the moderator's tacit consent.
This forum took a major step down, in my humble opinion, when Jim turned a blind eye on Larry's headhunting. I value information, but not censorship. Now die, sad thread.
posted 07-10-2002 09:04 PM ET (US)
posted 07-11-2002 09:12 AM ET (US)
For Lawyers(yes both of you) you should know better than to use a run-on sentence.
posted 07-11-2002 11:46 AM ET (US)
I'm gonna do y'all a favor ... Usually when I post, the post dies. And so, let this be the last word ...
SSFW, Newtauk variety
posted 07-11-2002 02:06 PM ET (US)
McCarthy's ads are always out of date as is their web site. If you check the Salty Dog advertisement -
you will see it mentions 2002's. If it were up to date it would say 2003.
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