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Author Topic:   Which VHF Radio?

Skeeball posted 08-05-2002 12:37 PM ET (US)
Any opinions on VHF radios? I am looking at the Ray 45, Ray 53 and Icom IC M402
Peter posted 08-05-2002 12:55 PM ET (US)
I'm currently using the Icom IC M402 with the Command Mic accessory on my Revenge 22. The M402 is in the cabinet below the steering wheel and the Command Mic plugs into a socket in the panel below the steering wheel and rests in the clip on the flat part of the console. This setup give me substantially full functionality without having the radio take up precious console space.
It works fairly well but sometimes the Command Mic gets a little quirky, such as things like losing the volume. Based on my previous experience with Standard Horizon and now the Icom, I think I prefer the Standard Horizon.
Taylor posted 08-05-2002 03:06 PM ET (US)
I got a Icom 402 refurbished on ebay for $144, which I thought was a pretty good price. I liked the big display and waterproofness, which is JIS-7/submersible.
I also got an Icom M2A handheld about the same time, and since I have the handheld, I've not gotten around to installing the 402, and I don't have the command mic so I can't speak to Peter's concerns. I was going to install mine inside the console of my Montauk as Peter did but yesterday I was talked into flush mounting which I think will work a lot better.
BTW, there are three handheld ICOM M2A refurbished on Ebay right now from Marisafe. They are the same folks I got mine from. Very professional. Opening bid is $139, and I bet that will take it. Good radio, good price.
triblet posted 08-06-2002 12:27 AM ET (US)
The Icom is submersible (3', 30 minutes).
The Rays are "waterproof" which really means
"kinda sorta splashproof, and if it gets
wet, and it's still on warantee, we'll
replace it". I killed an Apelco 5200 (Ray
52) on my Montauk. "Serious saltwater
intrusion" was Ray's diagnosis when they
replaced it. The replacement unit is
in a box in the garage,
and there's a submersible Standard Horizon
Spectrum (submersible) on the console now.
My buddy Ian killed a Ray 53 recently and
was running on his handheld this weekend.
The Standard Intrepid is also worth a look.
Fewer features, but still submersible. The
feature that got me to get the Spectrum over
the Intrepid was the A/B buttom which gives
quick access to two working channels. I
later discovered it has a speaker in the mike
which is handy when under way.
I'd definately look at DSC (Digital Selective
Calling) radios (inc M402, Intrepid, Spectrum)
and wire them to my GPS. This gives you a
one-button MAYDAY. The CG is only slightly
setup to handle this, but there are getting
to be a quite a number of these on
recreational boats.
Icom M2A is a old model, IIRC, and is only
splashproof, IIRC.

Chuck
EddieS posted 08-06-2002 01:56 AM ET (US)
I have the Icom M402 without the command mic. I agree with the other posts on the value of the Icom's waterproof rating. On a center console it is nice to know the radio is protected. I have also found the reliabillity and performance of Icom radios to be the best. My buddy went thru three apelco's before getting an Icom M45, he now swears by it.
Ed
David Ratusnik posted 08-06-2002 09:31 AM ET (US)
icom reliability, longevity, and voice quality is tough to beat.
whalerron posted 08-06-2002 10:02 AM ET (US)
I have the Standard Horizon Intrepid. It too meets the submersible waterproof standards. I have mine mounted on the console and I have very little trouble hearing it while underway. It is a great radio. Whichever unit you buy, make sure you buy one that meets the submersible waterproof standards. Also make sure the speaker is mounted on the front of the radio.
Louie Kokinis posted 08-06-2002 10:47 AM ET (US)
I have an ICOM (w/t command mic) and a Standard as a backup (no command mic). Both work well. We also carry a Standard (handheld) that IMO is the toughest little radio out there. My kids have subjected it to torture tests that no manufacturer would dream of, and it has never failed.
Taylor posted 08-06-2002 02:14 PM ET (US)
Chuck - (off topic) I don't know about whether its an older model or not, but the ICOM M2A handheld is JIS-7/submersible. The M3A is only JIS/4. Avoid that. I seem to remember that it was your input on the uselessness of spashproof made me put submersible at the top of my critera. Thanks.
For the fixed mount, I also considered the ICOM M45, but the DSC function on the M402 carried the day. Now I have a reason to buy a GPS...
One thing about the 'command mic'. Note that the standard mike on the M402 has volume control and a 16/9 switch on the mike. The remote command mic has an LCD and allows control of all the functions except DSC from a remote steering station. Last time I checked, there was no remote steering station on my Whaler :) It would save console mount space, though.
Meanwhile, over at ebay, the first M2A came and went, no one bid at $139. Two more out there. Not my radios, etc. The same vendor has five refurbished M402's there for a $159 opening bid. Again, I think that will take them.
The only thing that gives me pause is where all these refurbished radios are coming from.
WantaWhale posted 08-06-2002 05:36 PM ET (US)
As a ham operator, I would normally say you can't go wrong with ICOM. However I can attest that Standard Horizon is top notch as well. About 10 years ago, I worked one summer offshore as a subcontractor for Shell oil. I was hired for computer work, but they got me to do some radio repair as well. They had a crewboat sink in the gulf and had pulled the electronics off for me to attempt to repair.
The radio (Standard Horizon) had been summerged in salt water for almost a week. I took it apart, sprayed the board down with corriosion remover, replaced the reverse polarity diode and she was as good as new like nothing had ever happened. The radio was not waterproof like the newer ones so I figured this was a pretty good quality test.
The other thing is when I went to buy a handheld last year, West Marine told me that they felt that Standard Horizon had now supassed ICOM in "waterproofness" and could honestly be summerged with no problems. They said ICOM was still a great radio, but they did sometimes have problems when wet. The guy then picked up the handheld and threw it as hard as he could agaist the concrete floor and then showed me that the radio still worked just fine. He said the Standard Horizon rep told them to do that. So I guess you know which one I bought :)
Jay A posted 08-06-2002 05:53 PM ET (US)
I have a Ray 53,this is my second season(New England shore) with it and have no problems. It is DSC capable which all fix-mount VHF's will be by 2006.I take it home with me when I dock and is showing no sign of wear and tear.The extra large LCD readout is also a good feature.One reason I chose Raymarine is because it is a division of Ratheon,I've been in quality control for 23 years now and have worked with them on projects for the Def. Dept. and know they run a great quality program. If thier Marine division is half as good as the rest, it's ok by me!
Dick E posted 08-06-2002 08:11 PM ET (US)
In my opinon there is two radios that are head and shoulders above the rest.
Standard and Icon.
Either one will serve you well.
Do not forget about an antenna.
Do not buy a low end antenna.
Dick E
triblet posted 08-07-2002 12:46 AM ET (US)
Taylor: Oh, THAT M2A. ;-) From the context
I thought console mount, couldn't find it
in my notes and catalogs, and assumed it was
an older model (which would not be
submersible). You are quite right, the M2A
handheld is submersible.
Those refurb radios may be coming from Icom.
It's not uncommon for electronics
manufacturers to sell their refurbs (and
returns) on e-bay.
JayA: Quality Control means producing what
the spec sez. Your Ray 53 is only
splashproof. Perfect quality control would
say that NONE of them are submersible. Ray
has made a business decision to advertise
these as "waterproof" and replace them on
warantee as needed. My Apelco 5200 (Ray
52) died. Before I sent it back to be
replaced, I partially disassembled it.
The gasketing was almost nonexistant. While
the "submersible" radios aren't as
waterproof as my Nikonos UW cameras, they
are close.
Dick E: I replaced my cheap ($35) Shake
8' antenna with an expensive ($105) Shake
Galaxy.
The cheap one was still working (and still
works on my buddy Ian's RIB), and the
expensive one doesn't work any better. The
expensive one does look like it will last
more years, and has a longer, heavier, coax.
Chuck
Jay A posted 08-07-2002 06:13 PM ET (US)
triblet: QC varies from company to company,some are more "tighter" than others.Following the "specs" are only a part of a good quality system. Manufacturing processes and what materials and components are used,employee training and environmental stress screening are just some of the factors that are involved.Being "submersable"? I have to laugh at that one. If that did happen it tells me of two possible reasons : 1) the boat sank! or 2)It was mounted in the live well!
Taylor posted 08-07-2002 08:02 PM ET (US)
Jay A, you're right, it matters more with handhelds than fixed mounts but consider the fixed VHF mounted in the bottom of the console and accessed through a door. That location has been recommended on this forum, and I think by Whaler.
The floor of a Montauk console is about three inches above the floor of the boat. Its not all that hard to get three inches in your boat if you get pooped. A certain member got a boatload of water at the Blake Island Rendezvous when his (my) Montauk slid off the beach as the minus tide came in. (No laughing till you see the photos of the beach!)
I think for an open boat, I want JIS-7, JIS-4 can handle splashes, but not jets of water. http://www.icomamerica.com/support/documents/jis_scale.pdf is a copy of the spec.

triblet posted 08-07-2002 10:34 PM ET (US)
There are lots of reasons to need
"submersible":
You dropped the handheld in the baitwell.
You dripped the handheld in the bottom of
the dink.
You had to swim a rescue and took the
handheld with you (I've come real close to
this situation).
You took a big wave and the console mount
got real wet.
You hosed down the boat and the console
mount got wet.
Some turkey threw a wet towel on top of the
console.
The point is that "waterproof" aint' good
enough in normal whaler service. I killed
an Apelco 5200. My buddy Ian killed a
Ray 53 on his big RIB (about has dry as my
Montauk). As have several other buddies.
Ian comes to mind because it just happened.
Even if you never submerse it,
"submersible" is what it take to keep the
everyday water out. Evem with perfect QC,
"waterproof" isn't good enough.
BTW, the CG rescue swimmers carry
"submersible" handhelds.

Chuck
Jay A posted 08-07-2002 11:05 PM ET (US)
triblet: I agree with you about a handheld unit,submersable is better. But for a fixed mount, better care should be exercised around the electronics of you and your buddies and no matter what brand you have,it will probably survive. And from what you call "every day water" you encounter,maybe you'd be better off in a submarine! Or as Chief Brody said " I think you need a bigger boat"!
triblet posted 08-08-2002 08:18 AM ET (US)
Water happens. The right place for the VHF
is on top of the console where your can
see it, hear it, use it. The ocean can be
a big rough place, and sometimes conditions
change in ways that aren't forecast. And
sometimes it rains. Even in California.
And I gotta hose down the boat when I get
home.
As I said, water happens.

Chuck
whalerron posted 08-08-2002 08:28 AM ET (US)
triblet, I agree with you. A unit that is "waterproof" but not "waterproof to submersible standards" does little to prevent moist salt air from seeping into the chassis. Here on the East coast, if you park your car near a bay or the ocean overnight, you will need to clean the salt dew off of your windows in the morning. That same salt and moisture will get around the seals of the "waterproof" units over time and ruin them.
My VHF is mounted on top of the console where I can hear it and where I can get to it in a hurry. More than once my kids have spilled soda or cups of water on it. Also, I have been caught out in the Chesapeake 3 times this year when the weather forecast was wrong. What should have been calm conditions became small craft advisories and all 3 times I had to run 5 miles or more in very rough seas. Even though my radio is mounted behind the windshield, it still got a good dousing each time.
On a boat, water happens. Buy a submersible unit!
Jay A posted 08-08-2002 06:59 PM ET (US)
New revision! From what you guy's put your electronics thru, Submersable is better! Or should I say...a requirement! Now that I think of it, Skeeball didn't mention what type of vessel he has. To know this would give us a better idea what his requirements are. I still would make sure that when you hose down your boat to use caution around your electronics! By the way,in my 1970 13' Whaler I have a C.B.,a 1980 Cobra mounted inside a "splash" housing. It still works!

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Author	Topic: Which VHF Radio?
Skeeball	posted 08-05-2002 12:37 PM ET (US) Any opinions on VHF radios? I am looking at the Ray 45, Ray 53 and Icom IC M402
Peter	posted 08-05-2002 12:55 PM ET (US) I'm currently using the Icom IC M402 with the Command Mic accessory on my Revenge 22. The M402 is in the cabinet below the steering wheel and the Command Mic plugs into a socket in the panel below the steering wheel and rests in the clip on the flat part of the console. This setup give me substantially full functionality without having the radio take up precious console space. It works fairly well but sometimes the Command Mic gets a little quirky, such as things like losing the volume. Based on my previous experience with Standard Horizon and now the Icom, I think I prefer the Standard Horizon.
Taylor	posted 08-05-2002 03:06 PM ET (US) I got a Icom 402 refurbished on ebay for $144, which I thought was a pretty good price. I liked the big display and waterproofness, which is JIS-7/submersible. I also got an Icom M2A handheld about the same time, and since I have the handheld, I've not gotten around to installing the 402, and I don't have the command mic so I can't speak to Peter's concerns. I was going to install mine inside the console of my Montauk as Peter did but yesterday I was talked into flush mounting which I think will work a lot better. BTW, there are three handheld ICOM M2A refurbished on Ebay right now from Marisafe. They are the same folks I got mine from. Very professional. Opening bid is $139, and I bet that will take it. Good radio, good price.
triblet	posted 08-06-2002 12:27 AM ET (US) The Icom is submersible (3', 30 minutes). The Rays are "waterproof" which really means "kinda sorta splashproof, and if it gets wet, and it's still on warantee, we'll replace it". I killed an Apelco 5200 (Ray 52) on my Montauk. "Serious saltwater intrusion" was Ray's diagnosis when they replaced it. The replacement unit is in a box in the garage, and there's a submersible Standard Horizon Spectrum (submersible) on the console now. My buddy Ian killed a Ray 53 recently and was running on his handheld this weekend. The Standard Intrepid is also worth a look. Fewer features, but still submersible. The feature that got me to get the Spectrum over the Intrepid was the A/B buttom which gives quick access to two working channels. I later discovered it has a speaker in the mike which is handy when under way. I'd definately look at DSC (Digital Selective Calling) radios (inc M402, Intrepid, Spectrum) and wire them to my GPS. This gives you a one-button MAYDAY. The CG is only slightly setup to handle this, but there are getting to be a quite a number of these on recreational boats. Icom M2A is a old model, IIRC, and is only splashproof, IIRC. Chuck
EddieS	posted 08-06-2002 01:56 AM ET (US) I have the Icom M402 without the command mic. I agree with the other posts on the value of the Icom's waterproof rating. On a center console it is nice to know the radio is protected. I have also found the reliabillity and performance of Icom radios to be the best. My buddy went thru three apelco's before getting an Icom M45, he now swears by it. Ed
David Ratusnik	posted 08-06-2002 09:31 AM ET (US) icom reliability, longevity, and voice quality is tough to beat.
whalerron	posted 08-06-2002 10:02 AM ET (US) I have the Standard Horizon Intrepid. It too meets the submersible waterproof standards. I have mine mounted on the console and I have very little trouble hearing it while underway. It is a great radio. Whichever unit you buy, make sure you buy one that meets the submersible waterproof standards. Also make sure the speaker is mounted on the front of the radio.
Louie Kokinis	posted 08-06-2002 10:47 AM ET (US) I have an ICOM (w/t command mic) and a Standard as a backup (no command mic). Both work well. We also carry a Standard (handheld) that IMO is the toughest little radio out there. My kids have subjected it to torture tests that no manufacturer would dream of, and it has never failed.
Taylor	posted 08-06-2002 02:14 PM ET (US) Chuck - (off topic) I don't know about whether its an older model or not, but the ICOM M2A handheld is JIS-7/submersible. The M3A is only JIS/4. Avoid that. I seem to remember that it was your input on the uselessness of spashproof made me put submersible at the top of my critera. Thanks. For the fixed mount, I also considered the ICOM M45, but the DSC function on the M402 carried the day. Now I have a reason to buy a GPS... One thing about the 'command mic'. Note that the standard mike on the M402 has volume control and a 16/9 switch on the mike. The remote command mic has an LCD and allows control of all the functions except DSC from a remote steering station. Last time I checked, there was no remote steering station on my Whaler :) It would save console mount space, though. Meanwhile, over at ebay, the first M2A came and went, no one bid at $139. Two more out there. Not my radios, etc. The same vendor has five refurbished M402's there for a $159 opening bid. Again, I think that will take them. The only thing that gives me pause is where all these refurbished radios are coming from.
WantaWhale	posted 08-06-2002 05:36 PM ET (US) As a ham operator, I would normally say you can't go wrong with ICOM. However I can attest that Standard Horizon is top notch as well. About 10 years ago, I worked one summer offshore as a subcontractor for Shell oil. I was hired for computer work, but they got me to do some radio repair as well. They had a crewboat sink in the gulf and had pulled the electronics off for me to attempt to repair. The radio (Standard Horizon) had been summerged in salt water for almost a week. I took it apart, sprayed the board down with corriosion remover, replaced the reverse polarity diode and she was as good as new like nothing had ever happened. The radio was not waterproof like the newer ones so I figured this was a pretty good quality test. The other thing is when I went to buy a handheld last year, West Marine told me that they felt that Standard Horizon had now supassed ICOM in "waterproofness" and could honestly be summerged with no problems. They said ICOM was still a great radio, but they did sometimes have problems when wet. The guy then picked up the handheld and threw it as hard as he could agaist the concrete floor and then showed me that the radio still worked just fine. He said the Standard Horizon rep told them to do that. So I guess you know which one I bought :)
Jay A	posted 08-06-2002 05:53 PM ET (US) I have a Ray 53,this is my second season(New England shore) with it and have no problems. It is DSC capable which all fix-mount VHF's will be by 2006.I take it home with me when I dock and is showing no sign of wear and tear.The extra large LCD readout is also a good feature.One reason I chose Raymarine is because it is a division of Ratheon,I've been in quality control for 23 years now and have worked with them on projects for the Def. Dept. and know they run a great quality program. If thier Marine division is half as good as the rest, it's ok by me!
Dick E	posted 08-06-2002 08:11 PM ET (US) In my opinon there is two radios that are head and shoulders above the rest. Standard and Icon. Either one will serve you well. Do not forget about an antenna. Do not buy a low end antenna. Dick E
triblet	posted 08-07-2002 12:46 AM ET (US) Taylor: Oh, THAT M2A. ;-) From the context I thought console mount, couldn't find it in my notes and catalogs, and assumed it was an older model (which would not be submersible). You are quite right, the M2A handheld is submersible. Those refurb radios may be coming from Icom. It's not uncommon for electronics manufacturers to sell their refurbs (and returns) on e-bay. JayA: Quality Control means producing what the spec sez. Your Ray 53 is only splashproof. Perfect quality control would say that NONE of them are submersible. Ray has made a business decision to advertise these as "waterproof" and replace them on warantee as needed. My Apelco 5200 (Ray 52) died. Before I sent it back to be replaced, I partially disassembled it. The gasketing was almost nonexistant. While the "submersible" radios aren't as waterproof as my Nikonos UW cameras, they are close. Dick E: I replaced my cheap ($35) Shake 8' antenna with an expensive ($105) Shake Galaxy. The cheap one was still working (and still works on my buddy Ian's RIB), and the expensive one doesn't work any better. The expensive one does look like it will last more years, and has a longer, heavier, coax. Chuck
Jay A	posted 08-07-2002 06:13 PM ET (US) triblet: QC varies from company to company,some are more "tighter" than others.Following the "specs" are only a part of a good quality system. Manufacturing processes and what materials and components are used,employee training and environmental stress screening are just some of the factors that are involved.Being "submersable"? I have to laugh at that one. If that did happen it tells me of two possible reasons : 1) the boat sank! or 2)It was mounted in the live well!
Taylor	posted 08-07-2002 08:02 PM ET (US) Jay A, you're right, it matters more with handhelds than fixed mounts but consider the fixed VHF mounted in the bottom of the console and accessed through a door. That location has been recommended on this forum, and I think by Whaler. The floor of a Montauk console is about three inches above the floor of the boat. Its not all that hard to get three inches in your boat if you get pooped. A certain member got a boatload of water at the Blake Island Rendezvous when his (my) Montauk slid off the beach as the minus tide came in. (No laughing till you see the photos of the beach!) I think for an open boat, I want JIS-7, JIS-4 can handle splashes, but not jets of water. http://www.icomamerica.com/support/documents/jis_scale.pdf is a copy of the spec.
triblet	posted 08-07-2002 10:34 PM ET (US) There are lots of reasons to need "submersible": You dropped the handheld in the baitwell. You dripped the handheld in the bottom of the dink. You had to swim a rescue and took the handheld with you (I've come real close to this situation). You took a big wave and the console mount got real wet. You hosed down the boat and the console mount got wet. Some turkey threw a wet towel on top of the console. The point is that "waterproof" aint' good enough in normal whaler service. I killed an Apelco 5200. My buddy Ian killed a Ray 53 on his big RIB (about has dry as my Montauk). As have several other buddies. Ian comes to mind because it just happened. Even if you never submerse it, "submersible" is what it take to keep the everyday water out. Evem with perfect QC, "waterproof" isn't good enough. BTW, the CG rescue swimmers carry "submersible" handhelds. Chuck
Jay A	posted 08-07-2002 11:05 PM ET (US) triblet: I agree with you about a handheld unit,submersable is better. But for a fixed mount, better care should be exercised around the electronics of you and your buddies and no matter what brand you have,it will probably survive. And from what you call "every day water" you encounter,maybe you'd be better off in a submarine! Or as Chief Brody said " I think you need a bigger boat"!
triblet	posted 08-08-2002 08:18 AM ET (US) Water happens. The right place for the VHF is on top of the console where your can see it, hear it, use it. The ocean can be a big rough place, and sometimes conditions change in ways that aren't forecast. And sometimes it rains. Even in California. And I gotta hose down the boat when I get home. As I said, water happens. Chuck
whalerron	posted 08-08-2002 08:28 AM ET (US) triblet, I agree with you. A unit that is "waterproof" but not "waterproof to submersible standards" does little to prevent moist salt air from seeping into the chassis. Here on the East coast, if you park your car near a bay or the ocean overnight, you will need to clean the salt dew off of your windows in the morning. That same salt and moisture will get around the seals of the "waterproof" units over time and ruin them. My VHF is mounted on top of the console where I can hear it and where I can get to it in a hurry. More than once my kids have spilled soda or cups of water on it. Also, I have been caught out in the Chesapeake 3 times this year when the weather forecast was wrong. What should have been calm conditions became small craft advisories and all 3 times I had to run 5 miles or more in very rough seas. Even though my radio is mounted behind the windshield, it still got a good dousing each time. On a boat, water happens. Buy a submersible unit!
Jay A	posted 08-08-2002 06:59 PM ET (US) New revision! From what you guy's put your electronics thru, Submersable is better! Or should I say...a requirement! Now that I think of it, Skeeball didn't mention what type of vessel he has. To know this would give us a better idea what his requirements are. I still would make sure that when you hose down your boat to use caution around your electronics! By the way,in my 1970 13' Whaler I have a C.B.,a 1980 Cobra mounted inside a "splash" housing. It still works!