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Author Topic:   New Whalers vs Grady White

NWhaler posted 08-20-2002 07:36 PM ET (US)
I will always love whalers & look forward to going out in the pacific north west waters any time in one, but they have changed. I look @ the newer whalers and can not see the same boat as in the past. What is frightening I’m seeing the Grady White taking up the slack in the smaller to medium boat arena ??? What do you think !!!
11 footer posted 08-20-2002 08:01 PM ET (US)
Wow do you sound like my dad.
11 footer posted 08-20-2002 08:02 PM ET (US)
But i think you are right.
dscew posted 08-20-2002 08:36 PM ET (US)
Gradys are heavy duty, solid boats that don't change much with the trends (like Sea Ray, Bayliner, and the rest of the garbage barges). When I sold Whalers, it was BW, Pursuit, and Grady that were head to head competition, with Whaler being unique due to its structural foam construction. As much as I like Grady and Pursuit, neither has the appeal and charm of the Whaler, in my opinion. I still see some of the classic Whaler utility in the newer styles, although they have tried to dress them some. I won't walk away from BW until they paint checkered flags and purple slashes on them. If they do that, it's over. No Whaler 170 Ninjas for me!
11 footer posted 08-21-2002 11:12 AM ET (US)
How can you call Gragy's garbage barges
many people will pick them over whaler.
don't get me wroung I love whalers but if I was going to buy new it would be a Gragy
over whaler.
dscew posted 08-21-2002 11:57 AM ET (US)
I referred to Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc., as garbage barges. I know, because in addition to my beloved Whaler, I own a 230 Sea Ray, which doesn't even come close to the quality, fit, finish, or even ride of the Whaler. Please check the parentheses in my previous post. Grady's are among the best boats made.
homey posted 08-21-2002 01:05 PM ET (US)
The Grady nonskid is almost non existent and their bow rails are not 1 piece...They don't hold their value as much as a Whaler. Check it out yourself.
NWhaler posted 08-21-2002 01:56 PM ET (US)
Great ideas. I think it sometimes comes down to the model & details of a boat your looking for. All three BW, Pursuit, and Grady are in a class of their own & the competition must be strong between them. All I know is if on these Mfg. Slacks off, the other two will not look back.
dscew posted 08-21-2002 02:12 PM ET (US)
The bow rails on my Whaler aren't one piece either. I wouldn't have it any other way.
homey posted 08-21-2002 03:34 PM ET (US)
Its a matter of preference, Bow rails that aren't 1 piece are more likely to corrode from the inside out, may loosen over time from vibration, and aren't as nice looking as a 1 piece unit...The newer boats 1990's, being built have the 1 piece rails.
Pursuit boats are nice, but only feature a 5 year hull warranty.They still build with wood stringers(Its outdated boat building). I recently saw a 2470 center console, 1998 with the transom severely cracked and beginning to seperate from the hull. It was barely covered under warranty within the 5 years... I've never seen a whalers transoms crack.
Personnally, I would never buy a new boat. There are so many great deals on barely used ones, why take the huge loss of buying new. Something to think about....
bsmotril posted 08-21-2002 04:43 PM ET (US)
A contrary point of view.....A multi-piece bow rail let's you replace only the bent/broken pieces less expensively than a one piece rail.
Wood is certainly a viable boat building material in fiberglass boats if used and encapsulated properly. I bet you could even find some in your Whaler hull.
I would never buy a used boat. Why buy someone else's problems or cast offs. I can afford a new boat and would much rather have the warranties on the hull and motors than not.
BillS
Mullet posted 08-21-2002 04:49 PM ET (US)
Never buy a used boat? This might not be the place to post that :)
hooter posted 08-21-2002 06:31 PM ET (US)
"Ah'd never buy a used boat", but you'd take all dat money you gots and spend it on a bowlin' ball maker's idear of a boat, jez so's it is a NEW bowlin' ball boat. Ah tinks ah gots da picture. Dat's down-right FUNny!
JFM posted 08-21-2002 08:21 PM ET (US)
In a simply answer "sink or float". To me thats the key answer between the 2.
Also Gradys need more power for the same length boat and drink more fuel.
Regards, Jay
homey posted 08-21-2002 08:53 PM ET (US)
bsmotril...good semanship and boat handling skills will avoid bent bow rails...I'm sure there is some wood in my whaler but, It won't sink...
Many new boats that come from the factory have many problems and will sit at your local dealer all season waiting to be repaired. The factory will only pay the dealer a certain factory rate. (usually below dealers rates)Example: The dealer charges $70.00 per hour for repairs. The Manufacturer pays $50.00 per hour...This means the dealer keeps his mechanics busy on all the work coming in the shop, knowing your not going anywhere because your new boat can only be warranteed by his dealership...Actually, I appreciate you and anyone else who buys the new boats because I can save thousands when you sell to me.
I bought a USED 1998 21 Seacraft, 200 merc.efi,loaded t-top, electronics, and trailer. $26,000. I used the boat 1 season and sold it for $27,500 in 4 days....
Tom Byrum posted 08-21-2002 09:05 PM ET (US)
I think Classic Whaler's were unique without any real competitors. Grady's were never in the same class as B/W. G/W were always bigger and heavier more like the new Sea Ray Whaler's. I spent a lot of time fishing out of a Grady and although they are pretty nice boats, I think they are way overated. Edgewater is more like competition for the Classic Whaler's. One thing is for sure, the new Sea Ray Whalers are not in competition with the classics. Completely different boats. Apples and Oranges
bsmotril posted 08-22-2002 03:19 PM ET (US)
I bent my bow rail (not on my Whaler) trying to trade a shrimp boat Shrimp for Beer offshore in the typical 2-3 footers here in TX. Learned my lesson the hard way. Now I carry a heaving line and 5 gallon bucket along with the extra case of Old Milwaukee (for tradin' only).
I have bought used boats twice in the past. Both required a lot of time and dollars to get them to function as reliably and safely as I wanted for the fishing that I do. Back then, I had a lot of time, and not much money. Now the situation is somewhat reversed, and I would rather spend the time I have fishing / cruising and not on boat/motor repairs. Hopefully, at some point not too far off I'll have both time and money to spare. I would love to take on a restoration project boat at that point in my life and would certainly buy a used boat for that purpose. But it still will not likley function as my primary fishing rig. For that, I want something near new and under warranty.
BillS
msc posted 08-22-2002 05:56 PM ET (US)
referencing the Grady/Whaler issue: I purchased my 28 from a dealer who sells only Gradys and Whalers. I have the oppurtunity to go fishing out of Ocracoke with a dealer group comprised of 27 Gradys and 1 Whaler. At no point have I observed any benefit that the Gradys offered over my Whaler. I have numerous oppurtunities to go on Gradys from 25 to 33 feet during this trip. Fit,finish and fishability of the Whaler are superior in my estimation. During the run to and from the fishing grounds I give up nothing in speed or rough water handling. Now in all fairness to the Grady guys they would say the same of their choices. Now, I have an outrage and do not want a "cabin" boat. Most of the Gradys are walkaround models and if you want a walkaround they are probably a good choice. But in my opinion (for what it's worth) Whaler builds a tighter more solid boat. Now to the new versus "classic" discussion: I have owned a classic Montauk, a classic outrage 18, a 23 walkaround and now the Outage 28. I love whalers for what they are , not how they look. By some they are considered "butt" ugly..others swoon at the sight. I cannot for the life of me find anything on my 28 that is inferior in any way to what I had on the Montauk or the 18 except the lack of teak(R.I.P.) On the contrary the 28 has some refinements that the others clearly lack. Now in all fairness comparing a 28 sea boat to smaller skiffs is not exactly fair. Having not owned one of the new small boats I can't comment,but what I see at the dealership would not discourage me if I was in the market for a smaller boat. It seems to me there is more emotion than substance to this discussion and that is maybe how it should be. They look different. Like I said...my opinion.
Fishcop posted 08-22-2002 07:04 PM ET (US)
I have owned two Grady Whites and several Classic Boston Whalers. I have ridden on the new Whalers and as Tom Byrum noted...Apples and Oranges. (Nice Skipjack Tom!)
As far as the new Whaler boats ( I think we are talking about recreational vs. CPD), I have seen more Conquests and Outrages on the water than new Grady Whites (of any size). This is only my observation, but I see hundreds of boats each month in the rivers, bays and ocean (here in CA).
The newer boat mfgs. are making a good showing at the boat shows and this is also reflected in the number of "lesser quality" boats I see on the water.
I am sure that the number of Whalers vs. Gradys is different from region to region, but I have not seen Grady taking over the market in my area.
Just my two cents.
BTW...Tom, any Albacore?
Andy.
Tom Byrum posted 08-23-2002 12:16 AM ET (US)
Been tuna fishing twice so far. Caught a couple but nothing to write home about. Still early in the season. Damn wind blows every weekend then lays down for all the retirees. We should murder them this Saturday. I was a little harsh when I said Grady's were way overated earlier. My complaints with them were for fishing room and layout not quality. I think B/W and G/W have always been the top names in boats. But like I said they are in totally different categories. Now that I own a 6500# boat I can say that weight makes a big difference in ride quality though. My boat will do 20 knots through water that sends lighter boats airborne at less than half that speed. Ability to maintain a higher speed is kinda important when you are 80 miles offshore and the wind starts to blow for the ride home.
msc posted 08-23-2002 10:11 AM ET (US)
Tom, I have to comment on your weight statement. True words. I'm pushing 11,000# wet and the difference is amazing when it gets a little rough. (big difference around the dock when fending off as well)
viexile posted 08-23-2002 02:23 PM ET (US)
I've rebuilt both a Grady Sailfish and an Outrage V20 now. Neither impressed me as a very well constructed boat. The Grady's actual stringer system was NOTHING like the plans obtained from the factory. At least it was hand-laid glass, though. Chopper gun boats rot and it's the cheapest construction method. Go Contender.
FISHNFF posted 08-23-2002 05:02 PM ET (US)
I own a Grady and a Whaler, and let me tell you neither are perfect. Both have their slight design flaws (for my use), but are much much better than most. My biggest complaint on the Grady, a 1992 Seafarer 226, is the gelcoat. Very thin! Had problems with air bubbles on the outside corners which were fixed under warranty the first year, but as time wore on, more appeared. The fishboxes were not sealed from the bilge. By this I mean the top of the fiberglass liner had a 1 inch gap to the top, so if the box had water in it, it would slosh over the lip into the bilge. Grady argued that these were fish boxes, not livewells. The finally paid for a fix, but I still see the new Grady's not sealed.
Hey FISHCOP. Is this the guy with the initials A R and had a 17 Montauk and a 20 Grady Overnighter?
Fishcop posted 08-23-2002 06:30 PM ET (US)
Fishnff,
You guessed it! But you left out my second Grady, 19 Outrage and third and fourth whalers. I now have a 25 Outrage (whaler number 4).
As I asked Tom, been out for albacore?
Andy.
gradylover226 posted 07-16-2008 12:51 AM ET (US)
[Moderatgor's note: This discussion has been dormant for six years. It was just revived to add the following insightful commentary.]
you people, gradys are better in every way,no matter what all you whaler loving denail freaks say. there are more whalers out there because there ALOT cheaper then the gradys. and you get what you pay for. the whaler is a big hunk of fiberglass with foam in the middle. ohh "real craftsmenship", lol. gradys have stringer systems which are not out dated its the only way to make a truly solid and high quality. boat. listen no matter what any of you say gradys are alot better built and all over better boats. ask anybody outside of this forum. i bet more than 80% of them will say that the grady is a much better boat hands down

you wanta argue, go ahead call me at 516-578-4538
swist posted 07-17-2008 08:30 AM ET (US)
Well you lost your credibility right from the top, Whalers are hardly cheaper than G/W. They are both in the same ballpark (expensive), so using price in an argument is moot.
jimh posted 07-17-2008 08:35 AM ET (US)
I gave up on the revival when it began "you people..."
deepwater posted 07-17-2008 09:00 AM ET (US)
jimh just as a suggestion ,,when something like this rears it old and worn out ugggly head cant you save some web space or memory bites and kill the poor sob,,
lakeman posted 07-18-2008 08:44 AM ET (US)
My Grady walk around was the best boat I have ever owned from all points of view, but the most boater satisfaction to come from owning a boat, is from the boat I have now, and it is a Whaler. Owning a boat for most people is as much a pride of owner ship as it is to function. The Whaler with all it's faults is my personal choice of boats. Notice I said PERSONAL CHOICE, every one has different needs in boating so different opinions will always surface in these discussions.
BlueMax posted 07-18-2008 10:01 PM ET (US)
Jim - why are you even preserving this thread to begin with, much less allowing it to be dragged up every couple of years?!
Just Kill the Wabbit already!

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Author	Topic: New Whalers vs Grady White
NWhaler	posted 08-20-2002 07:36 PM ET (US) I will always love whalers & look forward to going out in the pacific north west waters any time in one, but they have changed. I look @ the newer whalers and can not see the same boat as in the past. What is frightening I’m seeing the Grady White taking up the slack in the smaller to medium boat arena ??? What do you think !!!
11 footer	posted 08-20-2002 08:01 PM ET (US) Wow do you sound like my dad.
11 footer	posted 08-20-2002 08:02 PM ET (US) But i think you are right.
dscew	posted 08-20-2002 08:36 PM ET (US) Gradys are heavy duty, solid boats that don't change much with the trends (like Sea Ray, Bayliner, and the rest of the garbage barges). When I sold Whalers, it was BW, Pursuit, and Grady that were head to head competition, with Whaler being unique due to its structural foam construction. As much as I like Grady and Pursuit, neither has the appeal and charm of the Whaler, in my opinion. I still see some of the classic Whaler utility in the newer styles, although they have tried to dress them some. I won't walk away from BW until they paint checkered flags and purple slashes on them. If they do that, it's over. No Whaler 170 Ninjas for me!
11 footer	posted 08-21-2002 11:12 AM ET (US) How can you call Gragy's garbage barges many people will pick them over whaler. don't get me wroung I love whalers but if I was going to buy new it would be a Gragy over whaler.
dscew	posted 08-21-2002 11:57 AM ET (US) I referred to Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc., as garbage barges. I know, because in addition to my beloved Whaler, I own a 230 Sea Ray, which doesn't even come close to the quality, fit, finish, or even ride of the Whaler. Please check the parentheses in my previous post. Grady's are among the best boats made.
homey	posted 08-21-2002 01:05 PM ET (US) The Grady nonskid is almost non existent and their bow rails are not 1 piece...They don't hold their value as much as a Whaler. Check it out yourself.
NWhaler	posted 08-21-2002 01:56 PM ET (US) Great ideas. I think it sometimes comes down to the model & details of a boat your looking for. All three BW, Pursuit, and Grady are in a class of their own & the competition must be strong between them. All I know is if on these Mfg. Slacks off, the other two will not look back.
dscew	posted 08-21-2002 02:12 PM ET (US) The bow rails on my Whaler aren't one piece either. I wouldn't have it any other way.
homey	posted 08-21-2002 03:34 PM ET (US) Its a matter of preference, Bow rails that aren't 1 piece are more likely to corrode from the inside out, may loosen over time from vibration, and aren't as nice looking as a 1 piece unit...The newer boats 1990's, being built have the 1 piece rails. Pursuit boats are nice, but only feature a 5 year hull warranty.They still build with wood stringers(Its outdated boat building). I recently saw a 2470 center console, 1998 with the transom severely cracked and beginning to seperate from the hull. It was barely covered under warranty within the 5 years... I've never seen a whalers transoms crack. Personnally, I would never buy a new boat. There are so many great deals on barely used ones, why take the huge loss of buying new. Something to think about....
bsmotril	posted 08-21-2002 04:43 PM ET (US) A contrary point of view.....A multi-piece bow rail let's you replace only the bent/broken pieces less expensively than a one piece rail. Wood is certainly a viable boat building material in fiberglass boats if used and encapsulated properly. I bet you could even find some in your Whaler hull. I would never buy a used boat. Why buy someone else's problems or cast offs. I can afford a new boat and would much rather have the warranties on the hull and motors than not. BillS
Mullet	posted 08-21-2002 04:49 PM ET (US) Never buy a used boat? This might not be the place to post that :)
hooter	posted 08-21-2002 06:31 PM ET (US) "Ah'd never buy a used boat", but you'd take all dat money you gots and spend it on a bowlin' ball maker's idear of a boat, jez so's it is a NEW bowlin' ball boat. Ah tinks ah gots da picture. Dat's down-right FUNny!
JFM	posted 08-21-2002 08:21 PM ET (US) In a simply answer "sink or float". To me thats the key answer between the 2. Also Gradys need more power for the same length boat and drink more fuel. Regards, Jay
homey	posted 08-21-2002 08:53 PM ET (US) bsmotril...good semanship and boat handling skills will avoid bent bow rails...I'm sure there is some wood in my whaler but, It won't sink... Many new boats that come from the factory have many problems and will sit at your local dealer all season waiting to be repaired. The factory will only pay the dealer a certain factory rate. (usually below dealers rates)Example: The dealer charges $70.00 per hour for repairs. The Manufacturer pays $50.00 per hour...This means the dealer keeps his mechanics busy on all the work coming in the shop, knowing your not going anywhere because your new boat can only be warranteed by his dealership...Actually, I appreciate you and anyone else who buys the new boats because I can save thousands when you sell to me. I bought a USED 1998 21 Seacraft, 200 merc.efi,loaded t-top, electronics, and trailer. $26,000. I used the boat 1 season and sold it for $27,500 in 4 days....
Tom Byrum	posted 08-21-2002 09:05 PM ET (US) I think Classic Whaler's were unique without any real competitors. Grady's were never in the same class as B/W. G/W were always bigger and heavier more like the new Sea Ray Whaler's. I spent a lot of time fishing out of a Grady and although they are pretty nice boats, I think they are way overated. Edgewater is more like competition for the Classic Whaler's. One thing is for sure, the new Sea Ray Whalers are not in competition with the classics. Completely different boats. Apples and Oranges
bsmotril	posted 08-22-2002 03:19 PM ET (US) I bent my bow rail (not on my Whaler) trying to trade a shrimp boat Shrimp for Beer offshore in the typical 2-3 footers here in TX. Learned my lesson the hard way. Now I carry a heaving line and 5 gallon bucket along with the extra case of Old Milwaukee (for tradin' only). I have bought used boats twice in the past. Both required a lot of time and dollars to get them to function as reliably and safely as I wanted for the fishing that I do. Back then, I had a lot of time, and not much money. Now the situation is somewhat reversed, and I would rather spend the time I have fishing / cruising and not on boat/motor repairs. Hopefully, at some point not too far off I'll have both time and money to spare. I would love to take on a restoration project boat at that point in my life and would certainly buy a used boat for that purpose. But it still will not likley function as my primary fishing rig. For that, I want something near new and under warranty. BillS
msc	posted 08-22-2002 05:56 PM ET (US) referencing the Grady/Whaler issue: I purchased my 28 from a dealer who sells only Gradys and Whalers. I have the oppurtunity to go fishing out of Ocracoke with a dealer group comprised of 27 Gradys and 1 Whaler. At no point have I observed any benefit that the Gradys offered over my Whaler. I have numerous oppurtunities to go on Gradys from 25 to 33 feet during this trip. Fit,finish and fishability of the Whaler are superior in my estimation. During the run to and from the fishing grounds I give up nothing in speed or rough water handling. Now in all fairness to the Grady guys they would say the same of their choices. Now, I have an outrage and do not want a "cabin" boat. Most of the Gradys are walkaround models and if you want a walkaround they are probably a good choice. But in my opinion (for what it's worth) Whaler builds a tighter more solid boat. Now to the new versus "classic" discussion: I have owned a classic Montauk, a classic outrage 18, a 23 walkaround and now the Outage 28. I love whalers for what they are , not how they look. By some they are considered "butt" ugly..others swoon at the sight. I cannot for the life of me find anything on my 28 that is inferior in any way to what I had on the Montauk or the 18 except the lack of teak(R.I.P.) On the contrary the 28 has some refinements that the others clearly lack. Now in all fairness comparing a 28 sea boat to smaller skiffs is not exactly fair. Having not owned one of the new small boats I can't comment,but what I see at the dealership would not discourage me if I was in the market for a smaller boat. It seems to me there is more emotion than substance to this discussion and that is maybe how it should be. They look different. Like I said...my opinion.
Fishcop	posted 08-22-2002 07:04 PM ET (US) I have owned two Grady Whites and several Classic Boston Whalers. I have ridden on the new Whalers and as Tom Byrum noted...Apples and Oranges. (Nice Skipjack Tom!) As far as the new Whaler boats ( I think we are talking about recreational vs. CPD), I have seen more Conquests and Outrages on the water than new Grady Whites (of any size). This is only my observation, but I see hundreds of boats each month in the rivers, bays and ocean (here in CA). The newer boat mfgs. are making a good showing at the boat shows and this is also reflected in the number of "lesser quality" boats I see on the water. I am sure that the number of Whalers vs. Gradys is different from region to region, but I have not seen Grady taking over the market in my area. Just my two cents. BTW...Tom, any Albacore? Andy.
Tom Byrum	posted 08-23-2002 12:16 AM ET (US) Been tuna fishing twice so far. Caught a couple but nothing to write home about. Still early in the season. Damn wind blows every weekend then lays down for all the retirees. We should murder them this Saturday. I was a little harsh when I said Grady's were way overated earlier. My complaints with them were for fishing room and layout not quality. I think B/W and G/W have always been the top names in boats. But like I said they are in totally different categories. Now that I own a 6500# boat I can say that weight makes a big difference in ride quality though. My boat will do 20 knots through water that sends lighter boats airborne at less than half that speed. Ability to maintain a higher speed is kinda important when you are 80 miles offshore and the wind starts to blow for the ride home.
msc	posted 08-23-2002 10:11 AM ET (US) Tom, I have to comment on your weight statement. True words. I'm pushing 11,000# wet and the difference is amazing when it gets a little rough. (big difference around the dock when fending off as well)
viexile	posted 08-23-2002 02:23 PM ET (US) I've rebuilt both a Grady Sailfish and an Outrage V20 now. Neither impressed me as a very well constructed boat. The Grady's actual stringer system was NOTHING like the plans obtained from the factory. At least it was hand-laid glass, though. Chopper gun boats rot and it's the cheapest construction method. Go Contender.
FISHNFF	posted 08-23-2002 05:02 PM ET (US) I own a Grady and a Whaler, and let me tell you neither are perfect. Both have their slight design flaws (for my use), but are much much better than most. My biggest complaint on the Grady, a 1992 Seafarer 226, is the gelcoat. Very thin! Had problems with air bubbles on the outside corners which were fixed under warranty the first year, but as time wore on, more appeared. The fishboxes were not sealed from the bilge. By this I mean the top of the fiberglass liner had a 1 inch gap to the top, so if the box had water in it, it would slosh over the lip into the bilge. Grady argued that these were fish boxes, not livewells. The finally paid for a fix, but I still see the new Grady's not sealed. Hey FISHCOP. Is this the guy with the initials A R and had a 17 Montauk and a 20 Grady Overnighter?
Fishcop	posted 08-23-2002 06:30 PM ET (US) Fishnff, You guessed it! But you left out my second Grady, 19 Outrage and third and fourth whalers. I now have a 25 Outrage (whaler number 4). As I asked Tom, been out for albacore? Andy.
gradylover226	posted 07-16-2008 12:51 AM ET (US) [Moderatgor's note: This discussion has been dormant for six years. It was just revived to add the following insightful commentary.] you people, gradys are better in every way,no matter what all you whaler loving denail freaks say. there are more whalers out there because there ALOT cheaper then the gradys. and you get what you pay for. the whaler is a big hunk of fiberglass with foam in the middle. ohh "real craftsmenship", lol. gradys have stringer systems which are not out dated its the only way to make a truly solid and high quality. boat. listen no matter what any of you say gradys are alot better built and all over better boats. ask anybody outside of this forum. i bet more than 80% of them will say that the grady is a much better boat hands down you wanta argue, go ahead call me at 516-578-4538
swist	posted 07-17-2008 08:30 AM ET (US) Well you lost your credibility right from the top, Whalers are hardly cheaper than G/W. They are both in the same ballpark (expensive), so using price in an argument is moot.
jimh	posted 07-17-2008 08:35 AM ET (US) I gave up on the revival when it began "you people..."
deepwater	posted 07-17-2008 09:00 AM ET (US) jimh just as a suggestion ,,when something like this rears it old and worn out ugggly head cant you save some web space or memory bites and kill the poor sob,,
lakeman	posted 07-18-2008 08:44 AM ET (US) My Grady walk around was the best boat I have ever owned from all points of view, but the most boater satisfaction to come from owning a boat, is from the boat I have now, and it is a Whaler. Owning a boat for most people is as much a pride of owner ship as it is to function. The Whaler with all it's faults is my personal choice of boats. Notice I said PERSONAL CHOICE, every one has different needs in boating so different opinions will always surface in these discussions.
BlueMax	posted 07-18-2008 10:01 PM ET (US) Jim - why are you even preserving this thread to begin with, much less allowing it to be dragged up every couple of years?! Just Kill the Wabbit already!