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Author Topic:   Steiger Craft "Montauk" model

Kelly posted 12-20-2002 01:25 PM ET (US)
I was really surprised. I went to www.steigercraft.com to look at their boats, and they have a boat called the "Montauk 21". It is a center console style fishing boat. I would have thought that Whaler owned certain rights to using that name for a model of a boat.
Kelly
Bigshot posted 12-20-2002 01:38 PM ET (US)
Maybe they did'nt and that is why they changed it to Montauk 170? Or maybe it is because theirs is a Montauk 21 and that is different from just montauk.
Mustang has a GT, Pontiac has a couple GT's, etc. It may just be the industry.
hauptjm posted 12-20-2002 03:07 PM ET (US)
I'm not sure of the Montauk issue, but I've to say these are pretty interesting boats. They look like they are made of high quality components and construction. They seem to be popular in the northeast. Any of you guys heard of, used, owned, etc.??
Dick posted 12-20-2002 03:18 PM ET (US)
Never heard of them prior to this post. They do look good and the fact that the factory builds to order is a big plus.
I do like that Chesapeake 26.
Dick
tbyrne posted 12-20-2002 04:33 PM ET (US)
But they only appear to be offered with Mercury power! How insulting - can you imagine a boatbuilder doing that? ;)
triblet posted 12-20-2002 04:50 PM ET (US)
Whaler website does not show a TM (unregistered
trademark) or circle-R (registered trademark)
symbol on the Montauk pages.
But the patent office website says they filed
on Sept 18, 2000. Registration has not been
granted yet. Interesting that they would care
enough to file, but not care enough to start
using the TM.
Interestingly, it looks like we almost had a
Mazda Montauk SUV. They filed an intention
to use in Feb, 1998, and abanonded it in
April 2000.
Montauk has been used on lots of other things
(clothing, cookies, furniture). The same
trademark may be granted to different people
for different products.

Chuck
dscew posted 12-20-2002 04:59 PM ET (US)
"Montauk" is the name of an island off of Martha's Vineyard, just as Tashmoo and Katama are, I believe. I'm not sure a copyright would be available to a company on an existing name, although I'm no copyright expert. Pursuit has a boat called the "Denali," which refers to the mountain. It would be interesting to know if they copyrighted that one. Chevy has a big SUV named Denali, too.
nordan posted 12-20-2002 05:06 PM ET (US)
How about the factory is about 30 miles east of Montauk point Long Island. Most of the fishing people here on Long Island, consider Montauk to be the ultimate fishing spot in the world.
triblet posted 12-20-2002 07:55 PM ET (US)
Yes, I believe BW can register Montauk as
a trademark even though it is a place.
They've registered Ventura, and that's
place (well, sort of, it's in SoCal ;-)
And a number of other folks have registered
Montauk for non-boating products (clothes,
furniture, hooks, etc.).

Chuck
nordan posted 12-20-2002 08:35 PM ET (US)
Montauk is the name of a particular Indian tribe which occupied an area on Long Island, New York. Most all of the towns on the east end of Long Island, are named after the Indians that occupied them. Quite a few names of vintage Whalers, come from Indian tribes of the northeast area. I don't think it's possible to copy right the name of an Indian tribe and or the town in which the boat was named after.
aubv posted 12-20-2002 09:25 PM ET (US)
dscew,
Tashmoo is actually Lake Tashmoo, a salt water pond with a small inlet which opens to Vineyard Sound. It is a very pretty spot on the Island of Martha's Vineyard. It offers a very protected anchorage and has moorings for hundreds of boats. One of which is mine. Besides claming, False Albacore, Stripers, Bonito and Blues can be caught from the shores in and around Lake Tashmoo.
Katama is an area in the south east portion of the Martha's Vineyard. I believe, the area is considered a Coastal Plain, that terminates at South beach and the Atlantic Ocean. It is a relatively flat area and is rather featureless but has some unique flora.
Steiger craft boats, from what I can recall seem to be well built but not the same fit and finish as GW, or BW.
fwiw
jimh posted 12-21-2002 01:24 AM ET (US)
Copyright only protects creative works.
"Montauk" could be a trademark.
Peter posted 12-21-2002 07:45 AM ET (US)
Copyrights and trademarks often get confused. Let's set the record straight.
A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others. As far as I know, until recently Whaler had been the only boat manufacturer to use the word MONTAUK on a boat, although that use has really been in the form of a model designation rather than a trademark. That is probably why Whaler didn't bother to register MONTAUK as a trademark. Now it appears that they are taking a different legal view of the word MONTAUK.
In view of Whaler's long time, apparently exclusive use of MONTAUK, I think Steiger Craft's use of MONTAUK is a bit risky. However, I doubt anybody would be confused into thinking that the Steiger Craft is made by or associated with Whaler or vice-versa.
Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. "Works of authorship" usually come in the following forms: literary works; musical works, including any accompanying words; dramatic works, including any accompanying music; pantomimes and choreographic works; pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works; motion pictures and other audiovisual works; sound recordings; and architectural works.
Jim's narrative on the 2000 North Channel Rendezvous is a work of authorship in the literary form. As the author he owns the copyright in that work and, apart from some exceptions, nobody is allowed to reproduce it without his authorization.

DaveH posted 12-21-2002 11:26 AM ET (US)
I probably waterskiied off one of the first production Steiger Crafts in the mid 1980s. It belonged to my friend's father in West Hampton Beach on Long Island. I believe it was a 21' pilot house model. It was a no-frills type of boat of moderate quality. We beat on it pretty hard and put it away wet. Never had any problems.
I do not remember any special traits other than it was an unusual full headroom, forward pilot house on a low freeboard semi-V designed hull. That allowed for loads of cockpit space for commercial and recreational boating. Price was very low at the time with a Yamaha outboard.
Bigshot posted 12-23-2002 09:59 AM ET (US)
Baretta guns sued Chevy for the Baretta but lost. I wonder if Robert Blake could have sued?
triblet posted 12-23-2002 10:26 AM ET (US)
The gunmaker needed a better attorney.
Unrelated items can have the same trademark.
Guns not = cars. Guns maybe equal fictional
detective.
Whatever intellectual property protects
Baretta the detective, it's like the
producers, not the actor, own it.

Chuck
jimh posted 12-23-2002 12:02 PM ET (US)
Quoting from a recent decision at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, 6th District:
"A party establishes a common law right to a trademark only by demonstrating that its use of the mark was "deliberate and continuous, not sporadic, casual or transitory." La Societe Anonyme des Parfums le Galion v. Jean Patou, Inc., 495 F.2d 1265, 1272 (2d Cir. 1974)."
I guess 40-years of use of "Montauk" may qualify Boston Whaler for a common law right to a trademark.
Cf.: http://www.law.emory.edu/6circuit/jan99/99a0026p.06.html
Peter posted 12-23-2002 01:15 PM ET (US)
It is not necessary to register a trademark in order to have trademark rights. Trademark rights in the U.S. can come into existence only through use. In view of Whaler's deliberate and continuous use of MONTAUK for approximately 30 years, they certainly have a good claim for common law trademark rights to MONTAUK used in connection with boat hulls. All they are doing now is registering those rights with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Rights. Registration will provide them with some statutory benefits they do not get under common law.
Kelly posted 12-24-2002 09:58 AM ET (US)
A few years ago I came across a never titled and non-current year model Edgewater at a small dealer in south Georgia. Anyway, it had "Edgewater" on the side of the boat, but there were other places where it had "Sailfish" it think, or some other big fish name and logo. The dealer said that initially, Edgewater was going to be Sailfish, but after they put some boats out on the market, they were notified that that name was already being used and were required to change. I checked with Edgewater on the warranty status, and they confirmed that the boat was initially made under the other name. I guess in an industry with so many players, large and small, spread out all over the country it is sometimes difficult to know who has which names.
I noticed that Steiger Craft was founded in 1972. Since the Montauk name was introduced in 1974, maybe Steiger Craft was using it first. That would be interesting to know.
Kelly
gf posted 12-24-2002 03:10 PM ET (US)

You guys are killing me with this thread!
I especially like this one: "Montauk is the name of an island off of Martha's Vineyard, just as Tashmoo and Katama are, I believe."
Or this one: "How about the factory is about 30 miles east of Montauk point Long Island."
You guys need to study your geography. Montauk is the town at the easternmost tip of Long Island, New York.
Steiger Craft is a manufacturer in Bellport, NY; about 60 miles west of Montauk.
The boat's actual name is the Steiger Craft Long Beach 21 Montauk Edition. It is a center console fishing boat designed with features that appeal to the fly fishing and light tackle fishing enthusiasts around Montauk, New York.
Have a Merry Christmas and stick to Whalers!

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Author	Topic: Steiger Craft "Montauk" model
Kelly	posted 12-20-2002 01:25 PM ET (US) I was really surprised. I went to www.steigercraft.com to look at their boats, and they have a boat called the "Montauk 21". It is a center console style fishing boat. I would have thought that Whaler owned certain rights to using that name for a model of a boat. Kelly
Bigshot	posted 12-20-2002 01:38 PM ET (US) Maybe they did'nt and that is why they changed it to Montauk 170? Or maybe it is because theirs is a Montauk 21 and that is different from just montauk. Mustang has a GT, Pontiac has a couple GT's, etc. It may just be the industry.
hauptjm	posted 12-20-2002 03:07 PM ET (US) I'm not sure of the Montauk issue, but I've to say these are pretty interesting boats. They look like they are made of high quality components and construction. They seem to be popular in the northeast. Any of you guys heard of, used, owned, etc.??
Dick	posted 12-20-2002 03:18 PM ET (US) Never heard of them prior to this post. They do look good and the fact that the factory builds to order is a big plus. I do like that Chesapeake 26. Dick
tbyrne	posted 12-20-2002 04:33 PM ET (US) But they only appear to be offered with Mercury power! How insulting - can you imagine a boatbuilder doing that? ;)
triblet	posted 12-20-2002 04:50 PM ET (US) Whaler website does not show a TM (unregistered trademark) or circle-R (registered trademark) symbol on the Montauk pages. But the patent office website says they filed on Sept 18, 2000. Registration has not been granted yet. Interesting that they would care enough to file, but not care enough to start using the TM. Interestingly, it looks like we almost had a Mazda Montauk SUV. They filed an intention to use in Feb, 1998, and abanonded it in April 2000. Montauk has been used on lots of other things (clothing, cookies, furniture). The same trademark may be granted to different people for different products. Chuck
dscew	posted 12-20-2002 04:59 PM ET (US) "Montauk" is the name of an island off of Martha's Vineyard, just as Tashmoo and Katama are, I believe. I'm not sure a copyright would be available to a company on an existing name, although I'm no copyright expert. Pursuit has a boat called the "Denali," which refers to the mountain. It would be interesting to know if they copyrighted that one. Chevy has a big SUV named Denali, too.
nordan	posted 12-20-2002 05:06 PM ET (US) How about the factory is about 30 miles east of Montauk point Long Island. Most of the fishing people here on Long Island, consider Montauk to be the ultimate fishing spot in the world.
triblet	posted 12-20-2002 07:55 PM ET (US) Yes, I believe BW can register Montauk as a trademark even though it is a place. They've registered Ventura, and that's place (well, sort of, it's in SoCal ;-) And a number of other folks have registered Montauk for non-boating products (clothes, furniture, hooks, etc.). Chuck
nordan	posted 12-20-2002 08:35 PM ET (US) Montauk is the name of a particular Indian tribe which occupied an area on Long Island, New York. Most all of the towns on the east end of Long Island, are named after the Indians that occupied them. Quite a few names of vintage Whalers, come from Indian tribes of the northeast area. I don't think it's possible to copy right the name of an Indian tribe and or the town in which the boat was named after.
aubv	posted 12-20-2002 09:25 PM ET (US) dscew, Tashmoo is actually Lake Tashmoo, a salt water pond with a small inlet which opens to Vineyard Sound. It is a very pretty spot on the Island of Martha's Vineyard. It offers a very protected anchorage and has moorings for hundreds of boats. One of which is mine. Besides claming, False Albacore, Stripers, Bonito and Blues can be caught from the shores in and around Lake Tashmoo. Katama is an area in the south east portion of the Martha's Vineyard. I believe, the area is considered a Coastal Plain, that terminates at South beach and the Atlantic Ocean. It is a relatively flat area and is rather featureless but has some unique flora. Steiger craft boats, from what I can recall seem to be well built but not the same fit and finish as GW, or BW. fwiw
jimh	posted 12-21-2002 01:24 AM ET (US) Copyright only protects creative works. "Montauk" could be a trademark.
Peter	posted 12-21-2002 07:45 AM ET (US) Copyrights and trademarks often get confused. Let's set the record straight. A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others. As far as I know, until recently Whaler had been the only boat manufacturer to use the word MONTAUK on a boat, although that use has really been in the form of a model designation rather than a trademark. That is probably why Whaler didn't bother to register MONTAUK as a trademark. Now it appears that they are taking a different legal view of the word MONTAUK. In view of Whaler's long time, apparently exclusive use of MONTAUK, I think Steiger Craft's use of MONTAUK is a bit risky. However, I doubt anybody would be confused into thinking that the Steiger Craft is made by or associated with Whaler or vice-versa. Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. "Works of authorship" usually come in the following forms: literary works; musical works, including any accompanying words; dramatic works, including any accompanying music; pantomimes and choreographic works; pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works; motion pictures and other audiovisual works; sound recordings; and architectural works. Jim's narrative on the 2000 North Channel Rendezvous is a work of authorship in the literary form. As the author he owns the copyright in that work and, apart from some exceptions, nobody is allowed to reproduce it without his authorization.
DaveH	posted 12-21-2002 11:26 AM ET (US) I probably waterskiied off one of the first production Steiger Crafts in the mid 1980s. It belonged to my friend's father in West Hampton Beach on Long Island. I believe it was a 21' pilot house model. It was a no-frills type of boat of moderate quality. We beat on it pretty hard and put it away wet. Never had any problems. I do not remember any special traits other than it was an unusual full headroom, forward pilot house on a low freeboard semi-V designed hull. That allowed for loads of cockpit space for commercial and recreational boating. Price was very low at the time with a Yamaha outboard.
Bigshot	posted 12-23-2002 09:59 AM ET (US) Baretta guns sued Chevy for the Baretta but lost. I wonder if Robert Blake could have sued?
triblet	posted 12-23-2002 10:26 AM ET (US) The gunmaker needed a better attorney. Unrelated items can have the same trademark. Guns not = cars. Guns maybe equal fictional detective. Whatever intellectual property protects Baretta the detective, it's like the producers, not the actor, own it. Chuck
jimh	posted 12-23-2002 12:02 PM ET (US) Quoting from a recent decision at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, 6th District: "A party establishes a common law right to a trademark only by demonstrating that its use of the mark was "deliberate and continuous, not sporadic, casual or transitory." La Societe Anonyme des Parfums le Galion v. Jean Patou, Inc., 495 F.2d 1265, 1272 (2d Cir. 1974)." I guess 40-years of use of "Montauk" may qualify Boston Whaler for a common law right to a trademark. Cf.: http://www.law.emory.edu/6circuit/jan99/99a0026p.06.html
Peter	posted 12-23-2002 01:15 PM ET (US) It is not necessary to register a trademark in order to have trademark rights. Trademark rights in the U.S. can come into existence only through use. In view of Whaler's deliberate and continuous use of MONTAUK for approximately 30 years, they certainly have a good claim for common law trademark rights to MONTAUK used in connection with boat hulls. All they are doing now is registering those rights with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Rights. Registration will provide them with some statutory benefits they do not get under common law.
Kelly	posted 12-24-2002 09:58 AM ET (US) A few years ago I came across a never titled and non-current year model Edgewater at a small dealer in south Georgia. Anyway, it had "Edgewater" on the side of the boat, but there were other places where it had "Sailfish" it think, or some other big fish name and logo. The dealer said that initially, Edgewater was going to be Sailfish, but after they put some boats out on the market, they were notified that that name was already being used and were required to change. I checked with Edgewater on the warranty status, and they confirmed that the boat was initially made under the other name. I guess in an industry with so many players, large and small, spread out all over the country it is sometimes difficult to know who has which names. I noticed that Steiger Craft was founded in 1972. Since the Montauk name was introduced in 1974, maybe Steiger Craft was using it first. That would be interesting to know. Kelly
gf	posted 12-24-2002 03:10 PM ET (US) You guys are killing me with this thread! I especially like this one: "Montauk is the name of an island off of Martha's Vineyard, just as Tashmoo and Katama are, I believe." Or this one: "How about the factory is about 30 miles east of Montauk point Long Island." You guys need to study your geography. Montauk is the town at the easternmost tip of Long Island, New York. Steiger Craft is a manufacturer in Bellport, NY; about 60 miles west of Montauk. The boat's actual name is the Steiger Craft Long Beach 21 Montauk Edition. It is a center console fishing boat designed with features that appeal to the fly fishing and light tackle fishing enthusiasts around Montauk, New York. Have a Merry Christmas and stick to Whalers!