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Author Topic:   Pascoe Lovers Beware!

North Beach posted 03-27-2003 09:03 PM ET (US)
From his book "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats": (in part)
THe early whalers were not without problems with this construction method as the foams occasionally continued to expand over time, or becomes compressed due to impacts. I've seen a number of instances in the Conquest Models where the inner cabin liners showed heavy cracking. In my view, the jury is still in deliberation regarding this construction method's ability to hold up over the long term.
Page 437.
OutrageMan posted 03-27-2003 11:44 PM ET (US)
I think that it is interesting to note that he references early whalers and then speaks about Conquest models.
I have always taken what he says with a grain of salt. I look at him as having the exact opposite opinion of boats as boating mags do. In the mags, there has never been a bad boat - they are all great. Pascoe has yet to see a boat that is good enough.
Brian
Jerry Townsend posted 03-28-2003 12:21 AM ET (US)
I had not even heard of Pascoe before John W. provided an article written by him. As I mentioned, I found the article interesting, but questioned a several things he mentions including - having oxidation without oxygen being present(which is strictly impossible) - and I have not previously seen the term "crevice corrosion" in a lot of other corrosion material I have read in the last 30 years or so - et.al. But then, I thought the term might be strictly a boating or marine term.
I wondered about his credentials and was informed that Pascoe was a marine surveyer. That simply led me to another question - and I hope that someone can help me here - What are the requisites of a marine surveyer? That is, must a marine surveyer have a formal education, specialized training, specific experience or can anyone be classified a marine surveyer? Some "official" sounding titles and services exist that are not well regulated which allows virtuallyd anyone can hang their "shingle" and be in business.
Frankly, I found the article that Tom referenced which was put together by the USCG a much more credible reference - without the questions I had before. ----- Jerry/Idaho
elaelap posted 03-28-2003 01:20 AM ET (US)
Jerry--
My friend George got his license as a marine surveyor last year via a correspondence course and open book exam...cost a chunk, but it ain't law school.
Tony
North Beach posted 03-28-2003 08:17 AM ET (US)
Overall, I think he is a real asset to the boating community-I really enjoy his informative writing and he has made me think thru a number of things- hull design, notched transoms, diesels, etc.
I like that he brings a critical eye to boating.
And he is right about one thing-"There is no such thing as a perfect boat".
Were I buying a big boat (yeah, right), I would consider flying him in to do the survey. I had a surveyor do a survey for me once and report on the good condition of the bilge pump (though it did not have one) and indicate tht there was no sign of damge to the hull (though there was an obvious repair)
John W posted 03-28-2003 09:52 AM ET (US)
I also take Pascoe's boat reviews with a grain of salt. I feel his writing's biggest weakness is he doesn't seperate fact from opinion on some of his boat reviews. The comments on whaler construction (perhaps taken out of context) are obviously absurd. No fiberglass boat of any construction method has shown the longevity & durability that Whaler has, going back to the 1950's.
On the other hand, there is some very useful information on his site, and it's available for free. The corrosion article Jerry mentions, www.yachtsurvey.com/corrosion.htm is extremely useful in my opinion.
Jerry, an exam is required to become a licensed marine surveyor. Like anything else, there are some who are better than others. There are two main accrediting organizations for marine surveyors: The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS), and The National Association of Marine Surveyors Inc (NAMS). Both of these organizations have websites if you are interested in learning more about them. Some sureveyors are accredited by both, I beleive. I believe there are varying designations of expertise, etc. that one can recieve from these organisations. There are courses offerred by these organizations and others (such as The WoodenBoat School) available for surveyors to expand their base of knowlege, but these are not required. A survey by an accredited marine surveyor is pretty much a requirement when buying or selling a large yacht, and is money well spent in most cases when buying any sizeable boat IMO.
Jerry, I did a search on "crevice corrosion" on Yahoo & came up with 7500 or so matches. It's a pretty common term, and not just boat related. Perhaps Pascoe misspoke about metal oxidizing without oxygen...but I beleive the point he was making was just the opposite...that without oxygen the aluminum WOULDN'T oxidize, and the oxidized layer is what protects aluminum from further corrosion. But in any case, his description of crevice corrosion was accurate as to the conditions in which it occurs and how to prevent it. Here's the first link I looked at (other than Pascoe's) on crevice corrosion: www.corrosion-doctors.org/Localized/Crevice.htm Pascoe's description of crevice corrosion is in all practical ways identical to this link's description, as far as what it is & the conditions that cause it.
John W posted 03-28-2003 09:52 AM ET (US)
I also take Pascoe's boat reviews with a grain of salt. I feel his writing's biggest weakness is he doesn't seperate fact from opinion on some of his boat reviews. The comments on whaler construction (perhaps taken out of context) are obviously absurd. No fiberglass boat of any construction method has shown the longevity & durability that Whaler has, going back to the 1950's.
On the other hand, there is some very useful information on his site, and it's available for free. The corrosion article Jerry mentions, www.yachtsurvey.com/corrosion.htm is extremely useful in my opinion.
Jerry, an exam is required to become a licensed marine surveyor. Like anything else, there are some who are better than others. There are two main accrediting organizations for marine surveyors: The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS), and The National Association of Marine Surveyors Inc (NAMS). Both of these organizations have websites if you are interested in learning more about them. Some sureveyors are accredited by both, I beleive. I believe there are varying designations of expertise, etc. that one can recieve from these organisations. There are courses offerred by these organizations and others (such as The WoodenBoat School) available for surveyors to expand their base of knowlege, but these are not required. A survey by an accredited marine surveyor is pretty much a requirement when buying or selling a large yacht, and is money well spent in most cases when buying any sizeable boat IMO.
Jerry, I did a search on "crevice corrosion" on Yahoo & came up with 7500 or so matches. It's a pretty common term, and not just boat related. Perhaps Pascoe misspoke about metal oxidizing without oxygen...but I beleive the point he was making was just the opposite...that without oxygen the aluminum WOULDN'T oxidize, and the oxidized layer is what protects aluminum from further corrosion. But in any case, his description of crevice corrosion was accurate as to the conditions in which it occurs and how to prevent it. Here's the first link I looked at (other than Pascoe's) on crevice corrosion: www.corrosion-doctors.org/Localized/Crevice.htm Pascoe's description of crevice corrosion is in all practical ways identical to this link's description, as far as what it is & the conditions that cause it.
John W posted 03-28-2003 09:53 AM ET (US)
sorry about hitting the send button twice!
Jerry Townsend posted 03-28-2003 10:29 AM ET (US)
elaelap and John W. - I thank you for the information. Being licensed and having SAMS and NAMS providing accreditation also gives credance. Certainly sounds as if they are providing a valuable service. Thanks again ---- Jerry/Idaho
hooter posted 03-28-2003 05:05 PM ET (US)
Ah tried this stuff on a bad case o'crevice corrosion and can testify, it woiks like a charm [link]: http://www.cajunmarket.com/Boudreauxs-Butt-Paste/
Give a try!
North Beach posted 03-28-2003 06:31 PM ET (US)
John W;
The remarks were not taken out of context -
I doubt you would say that to my face.
GeneNJ posted 03-28-2003 07:26 PM ET (US)
Ref: Oxidation without oxygen
Pascoe implied that the oxygen, needed for the oxudation process, was coming from the captured water (H2O), thus leaving the water with more Hydrogen (acidic). The water must be trapped for this to occur, as moving water is neutral (non acidic).
Jerry Townsend posted 03-28-2003 08:21 PM ET (US)
GeneNJ - and what separates the hydrogen and oxygen - that takes enery - lots of energy? Where is that energy coming from? ---- Jerry/Idaho
GeneNJ posted 03-28-2003 08:36 PM ET (US)
Jerry
How do the fish extract oxygen? How does iron rust(oxidize) at the bottom of the ocean?
jimh posted 03-28-2003 11:23 PM ET (US)
I must observe that the purpose of Pascoe's articles, indeed the purpose of his whole website, is to promote Pascoe.
It is the rare boat whose structure stands up to Pascoe's pointed hand tools, to his sharp eye, to his keen sense of design, or his nautical experience.
Pascoe is the star of his website, not the boats. And so it should be.
North Beach posted 03-29-2003 08:13 AM ET (US)
PAscoe is to most boats what the dyed in the wool classic lovers are to most boats, but I am smart enough to know that I dont know everthing (yet) and can learn from both.
We need more Pascoe types and less Boat Mag types.
John W posted 03-31-2003 09:41 AM ET (US)
Whoa, North Beach! I didn't mean to be offensive, I apologise if that's how I came across. I didn't mean that you were taking his comments out of context intentionally, rather I thought he might have had more to say about Whaler construction somewhere in his book than the three sentences you quoted. I guess he didn't. Sorry I offended.
Pascoe rants against "fooam core" construction in several articles & boat reviews on his site...not so much Whaler's uni-bond construction, but rather using foam cores as a hull stiffening method in conventional fiberglass construction. While there can be problems with foam coring, Pascoe is in error IMO in dissmissing the technique. It has been used successfully for many years by many different builders. Perhaps his dislike of Whalers comes from his misplaced aversion to foam core constructed boats.
Ironically, one of his favorite boats seems to be the Intrepid he reviewed. They are excellent boats, but they're built very high tech with foam core construction throughout. Pascoe makes little mention of this inconsistency in how he lambasts foam core construction elsewhere on his website.
DaveH posted 03-31-2003 11:07 AM ET (US)
Jerry et al:
Oxidation does not require oxygen. It is a simple chemical reaction between an anode and a cathode:
An anode will undergo an oxidation reaction through which ions are given up such as the sacrificial zincs on your engine parts. Conversely, a cathode will accept ions and undergoes a reduction reaction similar to electroplating. The ions can be liberated as a gas also.
As metallic oxidation-reduction occurs, passivation layers are left behind which build up over time and start to slow the flow of ions (like insulation slows the heat loss in your house).
I studied corrosion in the marine environment under a leader in the industry in college. If you have any specific questions I can look them up for you.
Jerry Townsend posted 03-31-2003 11:13 AM ET (US)
Dave - and everyone else - Thanks Dave for setting me straight. Apparently I slipped a cog somewhere and will have to pick up and dust off a couple of chem books. Thanks again ---- Jerry/Idaho

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Author	Topic: Pascoe Lovers Beware!
North Beach	posted 03-27-2003 09:03 PM ET (US) From his book "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats": (in part) THe early whalers were not without problems with this construction method as the foams occasionally continued to expand over time, or becomes compressed due to impacts. I've seen a number of instances in the Conquest Models where the inner cabin liners showed heavy cracking. In my view, the jury is still in deliberation regarding this construction method's ability to hold up over the long term. Page 437.
OutrageMan	posted 03-27-2003 11:44 PM ET (US) I think that it is interesting to note that he references early whalers and then speaks about Conquest models. I have always taken what he says with a grain of salt. I look at him as having the exact opposite opinion of boats as boating mags do. In the mags, there has never been a bad boat - they are all great. Pascoe has yet to see a boat that is good enough. Brian
Jerry Townsend	posted 03-28-2003 12:21 AM ET (US) I had not even heard of Pascoe before John W. provided an article written by him. As I mentioned, I found the article interesting, but questioned a several things he mentions including - having oxidation without oxygen being present(which is strictly impossible) - and I have not previously seen the term "crevice corrosion" in a lot of other corrosion material I have read in the last 30 years or so - et.al. But then, I thought the term might be strictly a boating or marine term. I wondered about his credentials and was informed that Pascoe was a marine surveyer. That simply led me to another question - and I hope that someone can help me here - What are the requisites of a marine surveyer? That is, must a marine surveyer have a formal education, specialized training, specific experience or can anyone be classified a marine surveyer? Some "official" sounding titles and services exist that are not well regulated which allows virtuallyd anyone can hang their "shingle" and be in business. Frankly, I found the article that Tom referenced which was put together by the USCG a much more credible reference - without the questions I had before. ----- Jerry/Idaho
elaelap	posted 03-28-2003 01:20 AM ET (US) Jerry-- My friend George got his license as a marine surveyor last year via a correspondence course and open book exam...cost a chunk, but it ain't law school. Tony
North Beach	posted 03-28-2003 08:17 AM ET (US) Overall, I think he is a real asset to the boating community-I really enjoy his informative writing and he has made me think thru a number of things- hull design, notched transoms, diesels, etc. I like that he brings a critical eye to boating. And he is right about one thing-"There is no such thing as a perfect boat". Were I buying a big boat (yeah, right), I would consider flying him in to do the survey. I had a surveyor do a survey for me once and report on the good condition of the bilge pump (though it did not have one) and indicate tht there was no sign of damge to the hull (though there was an obvious repair)
John W	posted 03-28-2003 09:52 AM ET (US) I also take Pascoe's boat reviews with a grain of salt. I feel his writing's biggest weakness is he doesn't seperate fact from opinion on some of his boat reviews. The comments on whaler construction (perhaps taken out of context) are obviously absurd. No fiberglass boat of any construction method has shown the longevity & durability that Whaler has, going back to the 1950's. On the other hand, there is some very useful information on his site, and it's available for free. The corrosion article Jerry mentions, www.yachtsurvey.com/corrosion.htm is extremely useful in my opinion. Jerry, an exam is required to become a licensed marine surveyor. Like anything else, there are some who are better than others. There are two main accrediting organizations for marine surveyors: The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS), and The National Association of Marine Surveyors Inc (NAMS). Both of these organizations have websites if you are interested in learning more about them. Some sureveyors are accredited by both, I beleive. I believe there are varying designations of expertise, etc. that one can recieve from these organisations. There are courses offerred by these organizations and others (such as The WoodenBoat School) available for surveyors to expand their base of knowlege, but these are not required. A survey by an accredited marine surveyor is pretty much a requirement when buying or selling a large yacht, and is money well spent in most cases when buying any sizeable boat IMO. Jerry, I did a search on "crevice corrosion" on Yahoo & came up with 7500 or so matches. It's a pretty common term, and not just boat related. Perhaps Pascoe misspoke about metal oxidizing without oxygen...but I beleive the point he was making was just the opposite...that without oxygen the aluminum WOULDN'T oxidize, and the oxidized layer is what protects aluminum from further corrosion. But in any case, his description of crevice corrosion was accurate as to the conditions in which it occurs and how to prevent it. Here's the first link I looked at (other than Pascoe's) on crevice corrosion: www.corrosion-doctors.org/Localized/Crevice.htm Pascoe's description of crevice corrosion is in all practical ways identical to this link's description, as far as what it is & the conditions that cause it.
John W	posted 03-28-2003 09:52 AM ET (US) I also take Pascoe's boat reviews with a grain of salt. I feel his writing's biggest weakness is he doesn't seperate fact from opinion on some of his boat reviews. The comments on whaler construction (perhaps taken out of context) are obviously absurd. No fiberglass boat of any construction method has shown the longevity & durability that Whaler has, going back to the 1950's. On the other hand, there is some very useful information on his site, and it's available for free. The corrosion article Jerry mentions, www.yachtsurvey.com/corrosion.htm is extremely useful in my opinion. Jerry, an exam is required to become a licensed marine surveyor. Like anything else, there are some who are better than others. There are two main accrediting organizations for marine surveyors: The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS), and The National Association of Marine Surveyors Inc (NAMS). Both of these organizations have websites if you are interested in learning more about them. Some sureveyors are accredited by both, I beleive. I believe there are varying designations of expertise, etc. that one can recieve from these organisations. There are courses offerred by these organizations and others (such as The WoodenBoat School) available for surveyors to expand their base of knowlege, but these are not required. A survey by an accredited marine surveyor is pretty much a requirement when buying or selling a large yacht, and is money well spent in most cases when buying any sizeable boat IMO. Jerry, I did a search on "crevice corrosion" on Yahoo & came up with 7500 or so matches. It's a pretty common term, and not just boat related. Perhaps Pascoe misspoke about metal oxidizing without oxygen...but I beleive the point he was making was just the opposite...that without oxygen the aluminum WOULDN'T oxidize, and the oxidized layer is what protects aluminum from further corrosion. But in any case, his description of crevice corrosion was accurate as to the conditions in which it occurs and how to prevent it. Here's the first link I looked at (other than Pascoe's) on crevice corrosion: www.corrosion-doctors.org/Localized/Crevice.htm Pascoe's description of crevice corrosion is in all practical ways identical to this link's description, as far as what it is & the conditions that cause it.
John W	posted 03-28-2003 09:53 AM ET (US) sorry about hitting the send button twice!
Jerry Townsend	posted 03-28-2003 10:29 AM ET (US) elaelap and John W. - I thank you for the information. Being licensed and having SAMS and NAMS providing accreditation also gives credance. Certainly sounds as if they are providing a valuable service. Thanks again ---- Jerry/Idaho
hooter	posted 03-28-2003 05:05 PM ET (US) Ah tried this stuff on a bad case o'crevice corrosion and can testify, it woiks like a charm [link]: http://www.cajunmarket.com/Boudreauxs-Butt-Paste/ Give a try!
North Beach	posted 03-28-2003 06:31 PM ET (US) John W; The remarks were not taken out of context - I doubt you would say that to my face.
GeneNJ	posted 03-28-2003 07:26 PM ET (US) Ref: Oxidation without oxygen Pascoe implied that the oxygen, needed for the oxudation process, was coming from the captured water (H2O), thus leaving the water with more Hydrogen (acidic). The water must be trapped for this to occur, as moving water is neutral (non acidic).
Jerry Townsend	posted 03-28-2003 08:21 PM ET (US) GeneNJ - and what separates the hydrogen and oxygen - that takes enery - lots of energy? Where is that energy coming from? ---- Jerry/Idaho
GeneNJ	posted 03-28-2003 08:36 PM ET (US) Jerry How do the fish extract oxygen? How does iron rust(oxidize) at the bottom of the ocean?
jimh	posted 03-28-2003 11:23 PM ET (US) I must observe that the purpose of Pascoe's articles, indeed the purpose of his whole website, is to promote Pascoe. It is the rare boat whose structure stands up to Pascoe's pointed hand tools, to his sharp eye, to his keen sense of design, or his nautical experience. Pascoe is the star of his website, not the boats. And so it should be.
North Beach	posted 03-29-2003 08:13 AM ET (US) PAscoe is to most boats what the dyed in the wool classic lovers are to most boats, but I am smart enough to know that I dont know everthing (yet) and can learn from both. We need more Pascoe types and less Boat Mag types.
John W	posted 03-31-2003 09:41 AM ET (US) Whoa, North Beach! I didn't mean to be offensive, I apologise if that's how I came across. I didn't mean that you were taking his comments out of context intentionally, rather I thought he might have had more to say about Whaler construction somewhere in his book than the three sentences you quoted. I guess he didn't. Sorry I offended. Pascoe rants against "fooam core" construction in several articles & boat reviews on his site...not so much Whaler's uni-bond construction, but rather using foam cores as a hull stiffening method in conventional fiberglass construction. While there can be problems with foam coring, Pascoe is in error IMO in dissmissing the technique. It has been used successfully for many years by many different builders. Perhaps his dislike of Whalers comes from his misplaced aversion to foam core constructed boats. Ironically, one of his favorite boats seems to be the Intrepid he reviewed. They are excellent boats, but they're built very high tech with foam core construction throughout. Pascoe makes little mention of this inconsistency in how he lambasts foam core construction elsewhere on his website.
DaveH	posted 03-31-2003 11:07 AM ET (US) Jerry et al: Oxidation does not require oxygen. It is a simple chemical reaction between an anode and a cathode: An anode will undergo an *oxidation reaction* through which ions are given up such as the sacrificial zincs on your engine parts. Conversely, a cathode will accept ions and undergoes a *reduction reaction* similar to electroplating. The ions can be liberated as a gas also. As metallic oxidation-reduction occurs, passivation layers are left behind which build up over time and start to slow the flow of ions (like insulation slows the heat loss in your house). I studied corrosion in the marine environment under a leader in the industry in college. If you have any specific questions I can look them up for you.
Jerry Townsend	posted 03-31-2003 11:13 AM ET (US) Dave - and everyone else - Thanks Dave for setting me straight. Apparently I slipped a cog somewhere and will have to pick up and dust off a couple of chem books. Thanks again ---- Jerry/Idaho